If there is a God...

[JohnPrewett]

I credit Jesus for seeing to the creation/content of the Bible. I don't care nor debate what men Jesus used to get the job done.

How would you even know about Jesus if it were not for the whore of Babylon, John?

Jesus has been proclaimed since the day of Pentecost. No man or group of men controls the spread of the message of Jesus.
(and on that note I'll call it a night)

 

[ding]

I credit Jesus for seeing to the creation/content of the Bible. I don't care nor debate what men Jesus used to get the job done.

How would you even know about Jesus if it were not for the whore of Babylon, John?

Jesus has been proclaimed since the day of Pentecost. No man or group of men controls the spread of the message of Jesus.
(and on that note I'll call it a night)

Did you hear about that through the Bible?

You know the one the whore of babylon decided what would be included in the NT?

Please tell me that you aren't quoting scriptures from the whore of babylon, John.

 

[ding]

I credit Jesus for seeing to the creation/content of the Bible. I don't care nor debate what men Jesus used to get the job done.

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

 

[ding]

But the point I am trying to make is that you can't logically believe in the New Testament and Jesus and believe that the Church is evil. It is illogical and incongruent.

Why? Because it was through the Church that that knowledge was transferred to us. It would be illogical for the Church to be evil and spread goodness at the same time.

Who said that the church was evil?

The Christian should fight for the church the way Jesus fought for the sanctity of the temple by driving out the money changers.

Having said that, I still stand by my claim that when you combine the power of the state and the pulpit trouble is just around the corner.

Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world. He did not hold political office nor did he command a military. In fact, when they tried to make himself a king he refused them.

I don't want collusion between state and religion. That would be almost as bad as no religion at all.

But I also don't want our government to be so legal positivistic that they forget there is a natural law.

The state is all about the personal power of men.

As such, they will violate natural law.

As James Madison famously said, "If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."

Not originally it wasn't.

“The law of nature is that which God at the time of creation of the nature of man infused into his heart, for his preservation and direction…the moral law, called also the law of nature.” Sir Edward Coke, Calvin’s Case in The Selected Writings and Speeches of Sir Edward Coke, ed. Steve Sheppard (Indianapolis: Liberty Fund, 2003), 7:35.

“...and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitles them…” F.N. Thorpe, ed., Federal and State Constitutions (Washington: GPO, 1909), 1:3.

“…as man depends absolutely upon his Maker for everything, it is necessary that he should, in all points, conform to his Maker's will. This will of his Maker is called the law of nature...This law of nature...dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority...from this original. Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these." William Blackstone, “Commentaries on the Law” 1723-1780

“Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine…Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants.” James Wilson “Of the General Principles of Law and Obligation” U.S. Supreme Court Justice Signed U.S. Constitution

 

[JohnPrewett]

I credit Jesus for seeing to the creation/content of the Bible. I don't care nor debate what men Jesus used to get the job done.

How would you even know about Jesus if it were not for the whore of Babylon, John?

Jesus has been proclaimed since the day of Pentecost. No man or group of men controls the spread of the message of Jesus.
(and on that note I'll call it a night)

Did you hear about that through the Bible?

I can't remember when I first heard about Jesus. I'm sure it was before I could read. I can't remember from who I first heard of Jesus.
My first learning of Jesus was in Methodist 'Sunday School' ... which I attended before I could read. No doubt the teachers used material from the Bible.

You know the one the whore of babylon decided what would be included in the NT?

From the Wiki article you proffered, I read that a Pope Damasus is credited with establishing the canon that is now the commonly 'standard' accepted canon.

(except for a few OT books that are not accepted by Jews and Prots)

Please tell me that you aren't quoting scriptures from the whore of babylon, John.

For centuries men discussed, debated, argued over what documents were or were not "scripture-canon."

I credit God - Jesus Christ for bringing into being the 'Bible'. No matter what particular men God used to get the job done.

I emphatically reject the notion that if one believes the Bible to be true-inspired, then one must-should believe the Roman Catholic "Church" is all it claims to be.

The Bible became widely distributed in spite of policies of the RC "church", not due to the RC "church".

 

[ding]

I emphatically reject the notion that if one believes the Bible to be true-inspired, then one must-should believe the Roman Catholic "Church" is all it claims to be.

That wasn't my point. My point was that it is not all that you think it is.

 

[JohnPrewett]

I emphatically reject the notion that if one believes the Bible to be true-inspired, then one must-should believe the Roman Catholic "Church" is all it claims to be.

That wasn't my point. My point was that it is not all that you think it is.

- EITHER - is - OR - is not –

From - NEW OXFORD REVIEW [RC publication] March 1987, page 6

By- Peter Kreeft [well known Roman Catholic author] [------------------------]

“Chesterton, alas, was wrong. We no longer want a Church that moves the world.

We want a Church that moves with the world. But what we want is the opposite of what we need.”

Well known Roman Catholic author Peter Kreeft wrote [and I agree]:

“Either the [Roman Catholic] Church is the voice of Jesus Christ on earth,
supernaturally and infallibly guaranteed by Almighty God to reveal to us His word and His will, not man's, not 'society's'; or it is not.

If it is, then we must stop all this pussyfooting nonsense about rights to dissent and exceptionalisms.

Do we have a right to dissent against God? Do we want to be exceptions to the Will of God?

If the Church is not what she claims to be, then it is the most idolatrous, blasphemous, and arrogant thing in the world,
and it is the duty of every lover of Christ to hate and oppose her. [---------------------------------]

Peter Kreeft is Assoc. Professor of Philosophy at Boston College –

Note Prof. Kreeft's logic- Either the RC "church" IS or IS NOT what it claims to be.

Either all the popes ARE what they are claimed to be, or they are NOT.

Either every pope has been and is everything RC doctrine claims a pope is, or every pope has been a fraud.

Centuries ago, Elijah said to a crowd of fence sitters - "....... How long will you falter between two opinions ?
If Lord is God, follow Him; But if Baal, then follow him. But the people did not answer him a word." 1Kin.18:21

 

[ding]

I emphatically reject the notion that if one believes the Bible to be true-inspired, then one must-should believe the Roman Catholic "Church" is all it claims to be.

That wasn't my point. My point was that it is not all that you think it is.

- EITHER - is - OR - is not –

From - NEW OXFORD REVIEW [RC publication] March 1987, page 6

By- Peter Kreeft [well known Roman Catholic author] [------------------------]

“Chesterton, alas, was wrong. We no longer want a Church that moves the world.

We want a Church that moves with the world. But what we want is the opposite of what we need.”

Well known Roman Catholic author Peter Kreeft wrote [and I agree]:

“Either the [Roman Catholic] Church is the voice of Jesus Christ on earth,
supernaturally and infallibly guaranteed by Almighty God to reveal to us His word and His will, not man's, not 'society's'; or it is not.

If it is, then we must stop all this pussyfooting nonsense about rights to dissent and exceptionalisms.

Do we have a right to dissent against God? Do we want to be exceptions to the Will of God?

If the Church is not what she claims to be, then it is the most idolatrous, blasphemous, and arrogant thing in the world,
and it is the duty of every lover of Christ to hate and oppose her. [---------------------------------]

Peter Kreeft is Assoc. Professor of Philosophy at Boston College –

Note Prof. Kreeft's logic- Either the RC "church" IS or IS NOT what it claims to be.

Either all the popes ARE what they are claimed to be, or they are NOT.

Either every pope has been and is everything RC doctrine claims a pope is, or every pope has been a fraud.

Centuries ago, Elijah said to a crowd of fence sitters - "....... How long will you falter between two opinions ?
If Lord is God, follow Him; But if Baal, then follow him. But the people did not answer him a word." 1Kin.18:21

Again, my point is that it is NOT all that you think it is. You see what you want to see and ignore anything which would contradict your bias.

As much as anything else Jesus taught to seek objective truth and not rationalize actions and behaviors.

You go right ahead opposing her and justifying your wrong as a right. In the end, you will be stripped of your pride and made to judge yourself. We all will.

 

[JohnPrewett]

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show to His servants
things which must soon take place. He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bears record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written in it, for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3

Where did the Revelation come from ? The mind of God. Who is the Revelation addressed to ? Servants of Jesus

Who has particular interest in and esteem for the Revelation? Servants of Jesus and whoever aspires to become a servant of Jesus.

A person who ignores or denigrates the Revelation shows they are not a servant of Jesus, nor do they aspire to become
a servant of Jesus. Lord willing, later the non-servant of Jesus may come to aspire to be a servant of Jesus.

But as long as one ignores or denigrates the Revelation, one shows one does not even aspire to become a servant of Jesus.

All who ignore the Revelation are forfeiting the special blessing that the Revelation explicitly promises to whoever cherishes the Revelation and seeks that special blessing.

To servants of Jesus, no document is as significant as the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His servants.

 

[gtopa1]

I just read an article from NASA which is partially the inspiration behind this topic:
WMAP- Fate of the Universe
It would seem to suggest that given enough time, all life in the known universe will most likely essentially “freeze” to death.
Now as a preface to this topic I suppose I should set some “assumptions” that I’m making. Let’s say that billions or more years ago, some supremely powerful conscious being created all the particles that exist along with all the rules that govern them; and that being is God.

Given all the messed up stuff that can happen to people, and has happened to people throughout history, and that existence will probably fade into frozen nothingness eventually; I’m having a hard time believing that “God” actually “cares” about us that much. Now I know that most people are good, but I think that’s mostly because it’s evolutionarily advantageous to be “good”. I think I have an innate empathy and conscientiousness for others because that is a trait that fosters cooperation; and human cooperation is a competitive advantage. Simply survival of the fittest.

So I guess I’m going to pose this question to you all: If there is a God (as outlined above) is there any evidence it really cares about you or my well being at a personal level?

Yes.

Greg

 

[MPS777]

I just read an article from NASA which is partially the inspiration behind this topic:
WMAP- Fate of the Universe
It would seem to suggest that given enough time, all life in the known universe will most likely essentially “freeze” to death.
Now as a preface to this topic I suppose I should set some “assumptions” that I’m making. Let’s say that billions or more years ago, some supremely powerful conscious being created all the particles that exist along with all the rules that govern them; and that being is God.

Given all the messed up stuff that can happen to people, and has happened to people throughout history, and that existence will probably fade into frozen nothingness eventually; I’m having a hard time believing that “God” actually “cares” about us that much. Now I know that most people are good, but I think that’s mostly because it’s evolutionarily advantageous to be “good”. I think I have an innate empathy and conscientiousness for others because that is a trait that fosters cooperation; and human cooperation is a competitive advantage. Simply survival of the fittest.

So I guess I’m going to pose this question to you all: If there is a God (as outlined above) is there any evidence it really cares about you or my well being at a personal level?

Look, Fool, what you are talking about is called Entropy. It is the inevitable result of the decay in matter happening over TRILLIONS of years. You planning to be around trillions of years from now? Long, LONG before that, other things will make it impossible for life anyway. Besides, I guess you just don't get it that "the universe" is just a place for beings to go who either haven't found God or chose to be separate from him. It's not supposed to be all unicorns and rainbows, otherwise, what would be the point of needing or wanting a return to the Supreme Consciousness? Ponder that, but try not to hurt yourself.

Besides, I guess you just don't get it that "the universe" is just a place for beings to go who either haven't found God or chose to be separate from him.

Do you have a source to back up this claim?

Ponder that, but try not to hurt yourself.

Projecting?

 

[toobfreak]

I just read an article from NASA which is partially the inspiration behind this topic:
WMAP- Fate of the Universe
It would seem to suggest that given enough time, all life in the known universe will most likely essentially “freeze” to death.
Now as a preface to this topic I suppose I should set some “assumptions” that I’m making. Let’s say that billions or more years ago, some supremely powerful conscious being created all the particles that exist along with all the rules that govern them; and that being is God.

Given all the messed up stuff that can happen to people, and has happened to people throughout history, and that existence will probably fade into frozen nothingness eventually; I’m having a hard time believing that “God” actually “cares” about us that much. Now I know that most people are good, but I think that’s mostly because it’s evolutionarily advantageous to be “good”. I think I have an innate empathy and conscientiousness for others because that is a trait that fosters cooperation; and human cooperation is a competitive advantage. Simply survival of the fittest.

So I guess I’m going to pose this question to you all: If there is a God (as outlined above) is there any evidence it really cares about you or my well being at a personal level?

Look, Fool, what you are talking about is called Entropy. It is the inevitable result of the decay in matter happening over TRILLIONS of years. You planning to be around trillions of years from now? Long, LONG before that, other things will make it impossible for life anyway. Besides, I guess you just don't get it that "the universe" is just a place for beings to go who either haven't found God or chose to be separate from him. It's not supposed to be all unicorns and rainbows, otherwise, what would be the point of needing or wanting a return to the Supreme Consciousness? Ponder that, but try not to hurt yourself.

Besides, I guess you just don't get it that "the universe" is just a place for beings to go who either haven't found God or chose to be separate from him.

Do you have a source to back up this claim?

Try reading the Srimad Bhagavatam for starters. I'm sorry, snothead, do you think God is in this universe as a place where he resides? If so, do please tell me which direction to point the telescope. That is not to say that God isn't seen, felt, or experienced here, but that occurs within the soul. God isn't a physical manifestation like a tree, so you can't walk up to him and touch him like an ordinary object. You can't CREATE the universe yet still be part of it, otherwise how were you around before you created yourself? So I'm not sure why it surprises you that the physical (cosmic) manifestation is part and parcel of God but outside (separate) from His domain. Put another way, did you think when you died and went to "Heaven," that it was just down the street? While we live out our lives here as "Joe" or "Sue", the very fact that we identify as such shows that we are living separate from God.