If the US healthcare system is the best and socialism is the worst

[taichiliberal]

Most of Europe and Greece have a kind of socialist or quasi socialist healthcare system that pays for pretty much everything getting people to give something like that up is next to impossible. The problem as Europe and Greece has shown is they are not sustainable sooner or later the people paying into the system are out paced by those collecting from it and it goes deeper and deeper into the red until it has to be bailed out or collaspes.

Wrong. What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....and let's not forget all those American banks that mixed toxic packages of housing loans with their stable loans and then sold them on the international market.

That's why Greece is bankrupt?
Because Goldman lied?
Because Greece was admitted into the EU?
Or because Greece spends too much? LOL!

Get your head out of Limbaugh's ass and READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY what I wrote, chuckles.

But since you're too dense, let me dumb it down for you: Greece's financial state should have made it non-applicable to the EU....but with a little help from Goldman Sachs, they got in....which essentially made them a grave risk to the EU market.

The EU bought into the toxic packages that our banks were putting on the market a'la the housing loan debacle...so when that bubble burst, the EU suffered as well, and Greece being a weak link to begin with, went down.

Do some honest homework to verify what I'm saying, chuckles....because I'm damned tired of doing the legwork for willfully ignorant jokers like you.

 

[Meister]

Deception:

Entitlement programs are bringing Europe to it's knees. National Health Care has become unsustainable. If you don't get it Germany, Great Britain and France finally have.
Germany
Chancellor Merkel, something of a political acrobat, was previously allied in coalition with leftist Social Democrats. She's now resisting calls from the Free Democrats to get off the state-pulled health-care train. The FDP's spokesman on health, Daniel Bahr, wants a "shift in direction away from state-run medicine." Why? Because "the current financial figures have showed us that the health-care fund doesn't work."
Germany's Socialized Health-Care System Isn't Working - WSJ.com

Great Britain
In a document, or white paper, outlining the plan, the government admitted that the changes would “cause significant disruption and loss of jobs.” But it said: “The current architecture of the health system has developed piecemeal, involves duplication and is unwieldy. Liberating the N.H.S., and putting power in the hands of patients and clinicians, means we will be able to effect a radical simplification, and remove layers of management.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/europe/25britain.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

France
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com

all three of those country's still pay less for their health care then the US.

The UK spends $2,560 per person
Germany spends $3,174 per person
France spends $3,040 per person
The US spends $6,096 per person
(as of 2007)
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com

The US spends $7,960 per person
(as of 2009)
Spending: U.S. spends whopping amount on healthcare - Los Angeles Times

Comparing U.S. Healthcare Spending with Other OECD Countries - Seeking Alpha

so when those countries end up spending roughly as much as we do, then we can compare apples to apples. since they spend less than half of what we spend, an increase in costs would need to jump 100% in order to have a direct comparison.

The disparity in cost per patient is because their costs are lower.

Don't forget they're going broke, also. Germany has a real problem going on with rationing, and the rich buy private healthcare insurance.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

You do know that health insurance doesn't include dental? You have to have separate dental insurance which nobody in the government has addressed?>

Or eye exams. Or hearing loss, etc.? (For which there is little or no insurance available for most people and the government doesn't seem to care about that either.)

And yet most people who need glasses or dental work done or hearing aids seem to be able to get them.

The guy who died because he couldn't afford to have a tooth pulled CHOSE to take the risk because there was help available for hm if he had asked.

And no amount of government cradle to grave benevolence is going to eliminate the anecdotal exceptions that will exist no matter how much money we pour into the black holes of government programs.

I understand it perfectly. 2 years ago, my brother spent a week in the ICU after he almost died from an infection that no dentist would treat because my brother was unemployed and had no insurance.

There are thousands of anecdotes, just like that.

But as someone who's worked with his hands his entire life, I've learned, you fill in the cracks where you find them.

You don't just throw your hands in the air and say," Well, that's just the way it is."

That's a quitter/loser mantra.

Imagine if our Founding Fathers had just thrown their hands in the air and accepted it all.

No, they were men of action, as we must be again.

Couldn't your brother afford insurance, or did he just elect not to purchase insurance?

There are a lot of Americans who elect not to have insurance because of their young age.

Affordable insurance can be obtained with the help of government through some mandates and getting out of the way of competition. The government insurance is not the answer to this problem we're facing.

In the US there are many that are not covered. In the nations where there is universal health care everyone is covered. The US gives people the option. If you work a low end job and don't have insurance offered trying to buy it yourself would in many cases more than the person earns. How does one purchase insurance when there is no money?

 

[Meister]

PS....the WHO numbers are really deceptive. FYI

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Deception:

Entitlement programs are bringing Europe to it's knees. National Health Care has become unsustainable. If you don't get it Germany, Great Britain and France finally have.
Germany
Chancellor Merkel, something of a political acrobat, was previously allied in coalition with leftist Social Democrats. She's now resisting calls from the Free Democrats to get off the state-pulled health-care train. The FDP's spokesman on health, Daniel Bahr, wants a "shift in direction away from state-run medicine." Why? Because "the current financial figures have showed us that the health-care fund doesn't work."
Germany's Socialized Health-Care System Isn't Working - WSJ.com

Great Britain
In a document, or white paper, outlining the plan, the government admitted that the changes would “cause significant disruption and loss of jobs.” But it said: “The current architecture of the health system has developed piecemeal, involves duplication and is unwieldy. Liberating the N.H.S., and putting power in the hands of patients and clinicians, means we will be able to effect a radical simplification, and remove layers of management.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/europe/25britain.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

France
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com

all three of those country's still pay less for their health care then the US.

The UK spends $2,560 per person
Germany spends $3,174 per person
France spends $3,040 per person
The US spends $6,096 per person
(as of 2007)
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com

The US spends $7,960 per person
(as of 2009)
Spending: U.S. spends whopping amount on healthcare - Los Angeles Times

Comparing U.S. Healthcare Spending with Other OECD Countries - Seeking Alpha

so when those countries end up spending roughly as much as we do, then we can compare apples to apples. since they spend less than half of what we spend, an increase in costs would need to jump 100% in order to have a direct comparison.

Those countries are not in the best shape economically partly due to the healthcare they have. Germany rations their healthcare....and some of the doctors have to close their doors until the next funding distribution.

Do you have links to your information? Without some source the claim is invalid.

 

[Meister]

I understand it perfectly. 2 years ago, my brother spent a week in the ICU after he almost died from an infection that no dentist would treat because my brother was unemployed and had no insurance.

There are thousands of anecdotes, just like that.

But as someone who's worked with his hands his entire life, I've learned, you fill in the cracks where you find them.

You don't just throw your hands in the air and say," Well, that's just the way it is."

That's a quitter/loser mantra.

Imagine if our Founding Fathers had just thrown their hands in the air and accepted it all.

No, they were men of action, as we must be again.

Couldn't your brother afford insurance, or did he just elect not to purchase insurance?

There are a lot of Americans who elect not to have insurance because of their young age.

Affordable insurance can be obtained with the help of government through some mandates and getting out of the way of competition. The government insurance is not the answer to this problem we're facing.

In the US there are many that are not covered. In the nations where there is universal health care everyone is covered. The US gives people the option. If you work a low end job and don't have insurance offered trying to buy it yourself would in many cases more than the person earns. How does one purchase insurance when there is no money?

We have already discussed this, take some time and catch up on this issue.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Here's a little tidbit: It costs $125 out of pocket to pay to have excessive ear wax removed......it takes place in the doctor's office and takes less than 15 minutes from examination to removal to chit chat to see ya next year and pay at the door. Now in my town, the doctor that does this does NOT take personal checks UNLESS you have insurance. He does take cash and credit cards.

A pain in the ass for the unemployed and/or uninsured, or working folk on a tight budget, n'est-ce pas?

Hey, life is tough. It is not the gov'ts job to subsidize the unemployed, uninsured or working folks who have blown their budget on cigs and beer.

And here we have this faux "rabbi" demonstrate the sheer stupidity of those who knee-jerk to healthcare reform at the prompting of the insurance companies and the absurd propaganda spewed by libertarian lunkheads and neocon numbskulls and teabaggers.

Let's deconstruct this "rabbi's" ignorant mental flatulence: unemployment insurance is paid for BY THE PEOPLE. You work for a company to create profit for that company...the owner takes a fraction of that profit and invests it in unimployment insurance...which enables said employees to continue to contribute to the economic infrastructure (pay bills, buy food, etc.) should the company fold or downsize. The gov't REGULATES this process...the gov't BY, FOR AND OF THE PEOPLE.

Next, the uninsured.....there is a plethora of information that points out a simple fact....if an uninsured person goes to the hospital, the taxpayers eventually pick up the bill. To prevent this, you have private and public insurance offered to the people, which is regulated by the gov't. As Wendall Potter and Dr. Peelo (among others) have pointed out, private insurance companies bereft of adequate gov't oversight have a tendency to screw over their customers. The current healthcare reform bill curtails insurance company chicanery, and essentially makes healthcare available to more people...and if you refuse healthcare insurance in general, then you pay a small tax FOR WHEN YOU WILL EVENTUALLY NEED HOSPITAL CARE. Now if you're one of those jackasses who thinks he'll go from 8 to 80 without a medical incident and then just suddenly drop dead, good luck with that fantasy...because the historical statistics are just not backing you up, let alone the potential thousands who think just like you (if they did, then the health insurance companies would be far less in number and profitability than they are).

And finally, the bigoted little barb that anyone who is in financial dire straits or on a tight budget is there because of sloth or gluttony or stupidity. Obviously, the "rabbi" was in a deep dark hole for the last 20 years or so when people who did everything right (prudent savings account, diverse investment portfolio, smart shopping consumers) got royally SCREWED by the system (the S&L scandal, ENRON, Madoff, the Wall St./mortgage banker scandal, corporate outsourcing). Now suddendly these folk who may have had like minded ideals like our "rabbi" here find themselves actually making choices as to whether to pay the mortgage/rent or the health insurance company that covers a needed dental visit, eye exam or (as I pointed out) ear exam.

So once again, with a little general review based in reality, we see that the author of the subject title of this thread along with our right wing rabid "rabbi" STILL have their heads firmly encased in the posterior of such neocon/teabagger/libertarian pundits and politicians as Limbaugh, Kristoff, Rand and Ryan. Carry on!

private insurance companies bereft of adequate gov't oversight

Anyone who thinks this is the case is too dumb to breathe.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

how many times has the GOP used filibusters in the senate since Obama took office??
GOP Filibuster Record: Republicans Using Obstruction Tool With Astonishing Frequency
The Heathen Republican: On Unprecedented Republican Filibusters of Obama

and you claim that its liberals who are holding up change? bwhahahahaha thats a good one.....

so your philosophy is to do the exact oppositie of what liberals do? thats a good governing philosophy.... im against anything they are for and for anything they are against. im glad youve learned to think for self...

Well for the first two years never because the Dems had a filibuster proof majority.
ANy other stupid questions?

the filibuster proof majority lasted 134 days on paper and 49 days in reality.
The Democrats’ 134-Day Supermajority | PoliPundit.com

Obamacare is the product of a brief moment of total Democratic dominance in Washington. Key to that dominance was a 60-seat, filibuster-proof Senate majority. It wasn’t a sure bet for Democrats; despite victories in 2008, the party’s hopes for that majority depended on the outcome of a contested race in Minnesota. After a controversial recount, Al Franken became the 60th Democratic senator on July 7, 2009, giving Democrats an unassailable edge.
But that majority disappeared just 49 days later when, on August 25, 2009, Massachusetts Democratic Sen. Ted Kennedy died.

Al Franken made that 60th senator but was not made a full senator until july 7th. 49 days later Ted Kennedy died.

anything you need to be proven wrong on?

Do you actually know how Universal heath care works?

 

[Oddball]

Deception:

Entitlement programs are bringing Europe to it's knees. National Health Care has become unsustainable. If you don't get it Germany, Great Britain and France finally have.
Germany
Chancellor Merkel, something of a political acrobat, was previously allied in coalition with leftist Social Democrats. She's now resisting calls from the Free Democrats to get off the state-pulled health-care train. The FDP's spokesman on health, Daniel Bahr, wants a "shift in direction away from state-run medicine." Why? Because "the current financial figures have showed us that the health-care fund doesn't work."
Germany's Socialized Health-Care System Isn't Working - WSJ.com

Great Britain
In a document, or white paper, outlining the plan, the government admitted that the changes would “cause significant disruption and loss of jobs.” But it said: “The current architecture of the health system has developed piecemeal, involves duplication and is unwieldy. Liberating the N.H.S., and putting power in the hands of patients and clinicians, means we will be able to effect a radical simplification, and remove layers of management.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/europe/25britain.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

France
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com

all three of those country's still pay less for their health care then the US.

The UK spends $2,560 per person
Germany spends $3,174 per person
France spends $3,040 per person
The US spends $6,096 per person
(as of 2007)
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com

The US spends $7,960 per person
(as of 2009)
Spending: U.S. spends whopping amount on healthcare - Los Angeles Times

Comparing U.S. Healthcare Spending with Other OECD Countries - Seeking Alpha

so when those countries end up spending roughly as much as we do, then we can compare apples to apples. since they spend less than half of what we spend, an increase in costs would need to jump 100% in order to have a direct comparison.

The disparity in cost per patient is because their costs are lower.

Another dishonest, disingenuous, bullshit socialist yammering point.

Americans spend more on health care for the best reason in the world: Because we can.

We purchase more on lasik, hair transplants, lipo, and numerous other elective procedures, all because we can.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Couldn't your brother afford insurance, or did he just elect not to purchase insurance?

There are a lot of Americans who elect not to have insurance because of their young age.

Affordable insurance can be obtained with the help of government through some mandates and getting out of the way of competition. The government insurance is not the answer to this problem we're facing.

No he had lost his job when the company he worked for shipped the jobs from his plant down to Mexico.

I don't know if anyone's ever seen how much it costs to extend health benefits after you've been laid off, but it eats up more than half of unemployment. Getting on a government program takes time, and though he had applied, it still took two months to get on it. The infection hit him about three weeks in. His employer hadn't offered dental, so my brother always paid for his kids to go first and then of money was left over, he would go himself. It had been awhile this time around.

I had offered to help him out when he lost his job, but my brother doesn't like charity and thought he'd be back to work right away.

He had to be forced by his wife and kids to even go to the emergency room the night he did go. He said he'd wait till morning, but in reality, he knew the bill would be more than he could pay and didn't want that over their heads as well.

The doctors told us if he had waited even that one extra night, he'd be dead now.

He is since better. He dd find a job almost six months after the incident, driving trick and has since been promoted to head of his office, which he says is just a fancy was to say he's the dispatcher.

The bill for 1 week hospital stay that saved his life was almost $300,000 dollars, which will hang over his head the rest of his life.

Perhaps the government should have a safety net for people that are in the position that your brother was in. It wouldn't take such a broad implementation as what is being thrown at us. I believe that most Americans would be in favor of a safety net approach regarding the issue.

That safety net would be universal health care all would be covered.

 

[Meister]

all three of those country's still pay less for their health care then the US.

The UK spends $2,560 per person
Germany spends $3,174 per person
France spends $3,040 per person
The US spends $6,096 per person
(as of 2007)
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com

The US spends $7,960 per person
(as of 2009)
Spending: U.S. spends whopping amount on healthcare - Los Angeles Times

Comparing U.S. Healthcare Spending with Other OECD Countries - Seeking Alpha

so when those countries end up spending roughly as much as we do, then we can compare apples to apples. since they spend less than half of what we spend, an increase in costs would need to jump 100% in order to have a direct comparison.

Those countries are not in the best shape economically partly due to the healthcare they have. Germany rations their healthcare....and some of the doctors have to close their doors until the next funding distribution.

Do you have links to your information? Without some source the claim is invalid.

I hope you trust NPR.

Nearly all hospital-based doctors are salaried, and those salaries are part of hospital budgets that are negotiated each year between hospitals and "sickness funds" — the 240 nonprofit insurance companies that cover nearly nine out of 10 Germans through their jobs. (About 10 percent, who are generally higher income, opt out of the main system to buy insurance from for-profit companies. A small fraction get tax-subsidized care.)

Office-based doctors in Germany operate much like U.S. physicians do. They're private entrepreneurs who get a fee from insurers for every visit and every procedure they perform. The big difference is that groups of office-based physicians in every region negotiate with insurers to arrive at collective annual budgets.

Those doctor budgets get divided into quarterly amounts — a limited pot of money for each region. Once doctors collectively use up that money, that's it — there's no more until the next quarter.

It's a powerful incentive for doctors to exercise restraint — not to provide more care than is necessary. But often, the pot of money is exhausted before the end of the quarter.That's why Leibl is chronically angry.

"I don't get paid at the moment," he said recently, near the end of a quarter. "I haven't been paid for what I'm doing for the last two or three weeks."

He has to wait until the beginning of the next quarter before the sickness funds will start paying the bills he submits. Some German doctors simply close their doors and take a vacation at the end of every quarter.
Keeping German Doctors On A Budget Lowers Costs : NPR

 

[Oddball]

Those countries are not in the best shape economically partly due to the healthcare they have. Germany rations their healthcare....and some of the doctors have to close their doors until the next funding distribution.

Do you have links to your information? Without some source the claim is invalid.

I hope you trust NPR.

Nearly all hospital-based doctors are salaried, and those salaries are part of hospital budgets that are negotiated each year between hospitals and "sickness funds" — the 240 nonprofit insurance companies that cover nearly nine out of 10 Germans through their jobs. (About 10 percent, who are generally higher income, opt out of the main system to buy insurance from for-profit companies. A small fraction get tax-subsidized care.)

Office-based doctors in Germany operate much like U.S. physicians do. They're private entrepreneurs who get a fee from insurers for every visit and every procedure they perform. The big difference is that groups of office-based physicians in every region negotiate with insurers to arrive at collective annual budgets.

Those doctor budgets get divided into quarterly amounts — a limited pot of money for each region. Once doctors collectively use up that money, that's it — there's no more until the next quarter.

It's a powerful incentive for doctors to exercise restraint — not to provide more care than is necessary. But often, the pot of money is exhausted before the end of the quarter.That's why Leibl is chronically angry.

"I don't get paid at the moment," he said recently, near the end of a quarter. "I haven't been paid for what I'm doing for the last two or three weeks."

He has to wait until the beginning of the next quarter before the sickness funds will start paying the bills he submits. Some German doctors simply close their doors and take a vacation at the end of every quarter.
Keeping German Doctors On A Budget Lowers Costs : NPR

Ooopsie!

 

[Katiegrrl0]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

It's about profits for the insurance companies.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Wrong. What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....and let's not forget all those American banks that mixed toxic packages of housing loans with their stable loans and then sold them on the international market.

That's why Greece is bankrupt?
Because Goldman lied?
Because Greece was admitted into the EU?
Or because Greece spends too much? LOL!

Get your head out of Limbaugh's ass and READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY what I wrote, chuckles.

But since you're too dense, let me dumb it down for you: Greece's financial state should have made it non-applicable to the EU....but with a little help from Goldman Sachs, they got in....which essentially made them a grave risk to the EU market.

The EU bought into the toxic packages that our banks were putting on the market a'la the housing loan debacle...so when that bubble burst, the EU suffered as well, and Greece being a weak link to begin with, went down.

Do some honest homework to verify what I'm saying, chuckles....because I'm damned tired of doing the legwork for willfully ignorant jokers like you.

The EU had their own housing loan debacles.
See Ireland and Spain.

Still waiting for you to prove that Greece's economy was screwed by Goldman.
Or that Greece bought any US mortgages.
Keep trying!

 

[Meister]

No he had lost his job when the company he worked for shipped the jobs from his plant down to Mexico.

I don't know if anyone's ever seen how much it costs to extend health benefits after you've been laid off, but it eats up more than half of unemployment. Getting on a government program takes time, and though he had applied, it still took two months to get on it. The infection hit him about three weeks in. His employer hadn't offered dental, so my brother always paid for his kids to go first and then of money was left over, he would go himself. It had been awhile this time around.

I had offered to help him out when he lost his job, but my brother doesn't like charity and thought he'd be back to work right away.

He had to be forced by his wife and kids to even go to the emergency room the night he did go. He said he'd wait till morning, but in reality, he knew the bill would be more than he could pay and didn't want that over their heads as well.

The doctors told us if he had waited even that one extra night, he'd be dead now.

He is since better. He dd find a job almost six months after the incident, driving trick and has since been promoted to head of his office, which he says is just a fancy was to say he's the dispatcher.

The bill for 1 week hospital stay that saved his life was almost $300,000 dollars, which will hang over his head the rest of his life.

Perhaps the government should have a safety net for people that are in the position that your brother was in. It wouldn't take such a broad implementation as what is being thrown at us. I believe that most Americans would be in favor of a safety net approach regarding the issue.

That safety net would be universal health care all would be covered.

No....not for everyone...just the people who fall through the cracks.

At pennies on the dollar compared to UHS for all. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. it doesn't have to be just government...it's better to have both government and private involved

 

[Katiegrrl0]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

The top two percent that don't need to pay a few more dollars in taxes have $4500 in the bank and then some. They have your $4500 as well.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

No one is saying health care is not an issue.

However, expanding government controls in order to deal with this issue is another issue.

Government already deals with health care with VA and Medicare and other social programs.

 

[Meister]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

It's about profits for the insurance companies.

So? It could be competition for insurance companies also if the government would let it happen.
I get so tired of how people like you think private companies/corporations are evil. They helped our country become the greatest nation on Earth.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Well for the first two years never because the Dems had a filibuster proof majority.
ANy other stupid questions?

the filibuster proof majority lasted 134 days on paper and 49 days in reality.
The Democrats’ 134-Day Supermajority | PoliPundit.com

Obamacare is the product of a brief moment of total Democratic dominance in Washington. Key to that dominance was a 60-seat, filibuster-proof Senate majority. It wasn’t a sure bet for Democrats; despite victories in 2008, the party’s hopes for that majority depended on the outcome of a contested race in Minnesota. After a controversial recount, Al Franken became the 60th Democratic senator on July 7, 2009, giving Democrats an unassailable edge.
But that majority disappeared just 49 days later when, on August 25, 2009, Massachusetts Democratic Sen. Ted Kennedy died.

Al Franken made that 60th senator but was not made a full senator until july 7th. 49 days later Ted Kennedy died.

anything you need to be proven wrong on?

Do you actually know how Universal heath care works?

Poorly.

 

[Oddball]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

It's about profits for the insurance companies.

Oh, Jesus H tapdancing Christ....Another one.

Yet, somehow or another, forcing everyone to have the federal gubmint as the insurance monopoly is going to make it allllll better?

Ever wonder why the hell is it socialists just hate monopolies, except when those monopolies are run by gubmint?