If it comes down between Mitt Romney (R)/Obama 2012...Who will you vote for.

[JoeB131]

And Catholic pedo priests?
Other preachers caught up in sex scandals and such?

Most pentecostal preachers seem to be most concerned with profits, not prophets.

The difference is, when they get caught doing that, they aren't reverred. No one names universities after them... Usually, they are defrocked and excommunicated.

But Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are still heroes...

Only in recent years have they been defucked and excommunicated.

No, before they were moved from Parish to Parish... but they weren't edified, that was my point.

Actually, I think the Catholic Church's policies just ask for that kind of trouble. First, you eliminate anyone who has an interest in sex with adult women, THEN you let them make secret confessions you are bound to protect. Oh, yeah, and you let them have unfettered access to kids.

 

[midcan5]

Politics is no longer politics in America, it is something else and some future historian will write about the change money and power brought to democracy, our republic.

Given that there is a lot more than just trying like hell to get a useless congress to do something, I am still with Barrack Hussein Obama. Consider judges as a key element, if we get many more corporate worshipers on the bench, people will have to take to the streets - oh, they are.

Republicans and most democrats no longer represent the values that made America great, some change occurred when prosperity spoiled too many and the hypnotism of mass media and technology put most citizens to sleep. There is also the cynicism evident in the idea that change is impossible when money manages the zeitgeist. Third parties are so far a wasted vote, and libertarianism is just plain silly. Vote for a libertarian they hate governing so much they want to govern. That makes real sense.

So my old piece still holds a little water. http://www.usmessageboard.com/congress/63125-a-martian-votes-on-tuesday.html
_

 

[JoeB131]

To my mind, it's kind of appalling to watch Republicans so willing to run off the cliff for a guy that barely a quarter of them really like.

The only way the GOP beats Obama is if they keep everyone McCain had, and then gets about six million people who voted for Obama to change their mind, preferably in key states.

Romney is not the guy to do that.

Okay, I'll admit, my own biases against Latter Day Saints taint my view. But not by that much. A bunch of groups that are going to be turned off by him.

1) Evangelicals and Baptists- LIke it or not, they see Mormons as Heretics. The dislike between Baptists and Mormons is particularly strong. The GOP only wins if they hold on to states like Arkansas and Missouri, and take back states like Virginia, Florida, North Carolina and West Virginia. Strong Baptist antipathy combined with energized African-American turnout for Obama puts these states in the blue column.

For a lot of these folks, this is a holy war. Joseph Smith was the false prophet the bible warned about. Now, as an atheist, I find this a little silly, but they take this stuff deadly seriously.

2) Hispanics- The only way the GOP wins this time and more importantly, remains relevent as a party in the long term, is by winning over Hispanics. Bush and McCain had it about right, and they made decent showings. McCain less so because he backed away from his own proposals on immigration to pander to the Minuteman vote. Romney has gone all out on the nativism. Might have allowed him to beat Perry, but Hispanics aren't going to vote for him at the 39% rate they did for McCain or the 44% rate they did for Bush. It doesn't help that the LDS thinks dark skin is a curse from God and that they didn't allow blacks full membership until 1978. Also doesn't help that Romney hired illegals to do lawn work on one of his four mansions. "Hey, trim my bushes, but your kid can't go to college!" Yeah, that'll play well.

3) Working Folks- This is a scary time to be working, and Romney's selling point is that he's a "turnaround artist". That looks a lot worse under scrutiny, when you find out his way of turning companies around involved firing people, moving jobs to China, closing down plants and busting good union salaries. Obama's strategy right now is going to be to play the class warfare card. Really, he has no choice. The economy hasn't gotten better and it's either his fault or Wall Street's fault, and it's a lot easier to hate Wall Street. Romney is a gift from heaven in that regard. He's another clueless Rich Guy who thinks one of his four mansions is too small when working folks are scared of losing their homes.

4) Women- The Gender Gap will be back. Quick, name a prominant Mormon woman.... Okay, you probably thought Marie Osmond. So let's eliminate any of them that aren't in entertainment or famous because of their husbands. Can't think of one, can you? Probably has a lot to do with the fact that Mormon women are supposed to be mostly concerned with making babies to propell their man into the Celestial Heaven. Yeah, Polygamy is gone, but they haven't reached equality. That isn't going to play well with a lot of career women.

So essentially, there are four categories that the GOP absolutely needs to win, and Romney kills Republicans in all of them.

Not since FDR found out he was running against Alf Landon has a Democrat felt so blessed.

 

[Caroljo]

Evangelicals would have to swallow hard before pulling the lever for a Mormon wouldn't they?

I'm probably going to get blasted for this....because i am a Christian, and i would vote for Romney before ever voting for Obama. Romney is a business man, he knows the economy and what to do to fix it. Yes, he's a Mormon and i know many Christians that won't vote for him just because of that. But my feelings are, he DOES believe in God, and maybe a lot of his beliefs are off the wall and people think they're all wrong. Well who's to say some of our Christian beliefs aren't also? There is NO religion that has it all right. We don't know and won't know for sure until we die. We're not to judge people on their beliefs, we're not to judge at all. I think he's much more capable to run our country that Obama ever was or will be. We need to be looking for someone to get us out of this mess! We already know obama can't, or won't.....if Romney gets in it's because that's what was supposed to happen...God is in control.

God was in control too when Obama got elected....i think it was a test! HE FAILED IT!

 

[JoeB131]

Evangelicals would have to swallow hard before pulling the lever for a Mormon wouldn't they?

I'm probably going to get blasted for this....because i am a Christian, and i would vote for Romney before ever voting for Obama. Romney is a business man, he knows the economy and what to do to fix it. Yes, he's a Mormon and i know many Christians that won't vote for him just because of that. But my feelings are, he DOES believe in God, and maybe a lot of his beliefs are off the wall and people think they're all wrong. Well who's to say some of our Christian beliefs aren't also? There is NO religion that has it all right. We don't know and won't know for sure until we die. We're not to judge people on their beliefs, we're not to judge at all. I think he's much more capable to run our country that Obama ever was or will be. We need to be looking for someone to get us out of this mess! We already know obama can't, or won't.....if Romney gets in it's because that's what was supposed to happen...God is in control.

God was in control too when Obama got elected....i think it was a test! HE FAILED IT!

Now, as an atheist, all I have to say is this...

You can't serve both God and Money. YOu can't say, "Well, he might be a crazy heretic, but he's a businessman, and that makes it okay."

(Wasn't it the "businessmen" who got us into this current mess?)

If you really think your sky pixie with his 14 billion year plan to run a universe is really micromanaging down to who gets elected, that's kind of deluded.

I think Obama is a weak leader, but he's a decent man. I think he means well. I just think he's wrong about how to fix our problems. I think he buys into a lot of Keynesian nonsense that only really works if you have the industrial/trade infrastructure to support it.

 

[California Girl]

Whomsoever the LP nominates.

I didn't have you down as a follower. Goes to show, I can be wrong.

 

[JoeB131]

Another point. - As I said, I'm an agnostic/atheist/free thinker on matters of religion. I'm always amused that when I take a conservative position, or don't buy into some political correctness, someone shreiks at me that I'm some kind of fundie fanatic who wants to impose my views on people. It's hilarious.

That said, as much as I would love to see a president who doesn't even have to pretend to believe in Bronze Age superstitions like talking snakes, I wouldn't want to see the GOP nominate an Atheist against Obama. Polls show that 49% of Americans would vote against an atheist. Half the voters have tuned you out before you even started the conversation.

The same polls show that 22% will not vote for a Mormon, including 19% of Republicans. So one fifth have tuned you out before the conversation started. This isn't a good idea at all.

 

[JoeB131]

That's as silly as hanging Toquemada around Kennedy's neck.

The Catholic Church has renounced Torquemada a long time ago. The Mormons still respect Joseph Smith.

 

[California Girl]

Mitt.

Yep, me too.

Usually, I'd be inclined to do a write in, but right now, I'm gonna have to put the country over my personal desires.

 

[California Girl]

Another point. - As I said, I'm an agnostic/atheist/free thinker on matters of religion. I'm always amused that when I take a conservative position, or don't buy into some political correctness, someone shreiks at me that I'm some kind of fundie fanatic who wants to impose my views on people. It's hilarious.

That said, as much as I would love to see a president who doesn't even have to pretend to believe in Bronze Age superstitions like talking snakes, I wouldn't want to see the GOP nominate an Atheist against Obama. Polls show that 49% of Americans would vote against an atheist. Half the voters have tuned you out before you even started the conversation.

The same polls show that 22% will not vote for a Mormon, including 19% of Republicans. So one fifth have tuned you out before the conversation started. This isn't a good idea at all.

So they lose a few religious bigots. Big deal. Romney can bring in far more independents.

 

[WillowTree]

Mormons have an ugly history. Apparently Mormonism is based on a Jewish settlement that supposedly once existed somewhere in what is now New York. However, absolutely no evidence has ever been found or produced to prove it once existed. Interesting...

Well, this rules out muslim for all time. donut?

 

[California Girl]

Evangelicals would have to swallow hard before pulling the lever for a Mormon wouldn't they?

I'm probably going to get blasted for this....because i am a Christian, and i would vote for Romney before ever voting for Obama. Romney is a business man, he knows the economy and what to do to fix it. Yes, he's a Mormon and i know many Christians that won't vote for him just because of that. But my feelings are, he DOES believe in God, and maybe a lot of his beliefs are off the wall and people think they're all wrong. Well who's to say some of our Christian beliefs aren't also? There is NO religion that has it all right. We don't know and won't know for sure until we die. We're not to judge people on their beliefs, we're not to judge at all. I think he's much more capable to run our country that Obama ever was or will be. We need to be looking for someone to get us out of this mess! We already know obama can't, or won't.....if Romney gets in it's because that's what was supposed to happen...God is in control.

God was in control too when Obama got elected....i think it was a test! HE FAILED IT!

Back in the day, certain people said a Catholic could never be President. They said if we elected a Catholic, America would be under the control of Rome. How did that work out for us? I happen to think it worked out just fine. Same with Romney. I have absolutely no problem with his faith. It is his business.

But Romney is smart as hell on economics and that is what we need.

 

[JoeB131]

The same polls show that 22% will not vote for a Mormon, including 19% of Republicans. So one fifth have tuned you out before the conversation started. This isn't a good idea at all.

So they lose a few religious bigots. Big deal. Romney can bring in far more independents.

Ahhh, those mythical independents... if that doesn't work, Romney can work on that Unicorn vote.

Independents don't win elections, enthusiasm does. Independents usually go with the flow.

This is what always amuses me about Romney's supporters. "We're not the least bit enthusiastic about him, but we think you'll be!"

Reality check, the guy who has the most enthusiastic supporters is the guy who wins. Obama's supporters are going to be enthusiastic. No doubt about that. Romney's supporters? Meh, not so much. He's safe. He's the guy your parents fixed you up with.

 

[JoeB131]

[
Back in the day, certain people said a Catholic could never be President. They said if we elected a Catholic, America would be under the control of Rome. How did that work out for us? I happen to think it worked out just fine. Same with Romney. I have absolutely no problem with his faith. It is his business.

But Romney is smart as hell on economics and that is what we need.

Yup, that's what we need, another douchebag who thinks that the problem with our economy is that the rich don't have enough money for polo ponies...

Incidently, only three times have Catholics been on a national ticket. 1928, 1960 and 2004. They lost two out of three of those.

But since you really were talking about 1960, and not 1928 when Catholicism did cause a loss, let's look at that. (Again, because you keep pretending I didn't refute that argument.)

In 1960, you had a large section who wouldn't vote for a Catholic. Of course, that demographic was already trending republican, so it didn't make that much of a difference. But a couple of factors you leave out.

Kennedy's Catholicism made the race a lot closer than it should have been. Some people STILL think Nixon actually won, but the election was stolen by vote fraud in Chicago (Dick Daley's notirous graveyard vote) and Texas. JFK only bested "Tricky Dick" by 120,000 votes.

So essentially, you had an unpopular Vice President who looked sweaty on TV, defending an economy that was going through it's THIRD recession in a decade. He was running against a young, charismatic War Hero from a prominant family. By all rights, it SHOULD have been a blow out for JFK.

But here's what JFK's saving grace was. Catholics were the largest denomination in teh country at that time. About 25% of the population. So for every protestant 'bigot' unwilling to pull the lever for JFK, there was a Catholic willing to pull the lever for him because he was.

Simply not the case for Mormons. They only make up about 2% of the population, and they already trend mostly republican. So if you lose those Evangelical and Baptist votes, you've lost them with nothing to replace them.

 

[JoeB131]

Mormons have an ugly history. Apparently Mormonism is based on a Jewish settlement that supposedly once existed somewhere in what is now New York. However, absolutely no evidence has ever been found or produced to prove it once existed. Interesting...

Well, this rules out muslim for all time. donut?

Probably. I doubt we'd ever elect a Muslim. What is your point?

 

[Two Thumbs]

Your two choices are Barack Hussein Obama and Mitt Romney for the presidency 2012. This is a poll of USMB members.

I put the choice of third party too...So we will see who wins!

We've had enough fiscal liberals in the WH to last us another 50 years, and then some.

I won't vote 3rd either, If I'm going to waste my vote, I'll do it having a beer.

 

[asterism]

That's as silly as hanging Toquemada around Kennedy's neck.

The Catholic Church has renounced Torquemada a long time ago. The Mormons still respect Joseph Smith.

Derision by proxy is a silly game. You have a valid point about the political gamesmanship of nominating a Mormon, but your near hatefest for the religion and transference of that animosity to individuals is just plain wrong.

But as you said, you'd vote Obama over Romney and that really just says it all.

 

[asterism]

The same polls show that 22% will not vote for a Mormon, including 19% of Republicans. So one fifth have tuned you out before the conversation started. This isn't a good idea at all.

So they lose a few religious bigots. Big deal. Romney can bring in far more independents.

Ahhh, those mythical independents... if that doesn't work, Romney can work on that Unicorn vote.

Independents don't win elections, enthusiasm does. Independents usually go with the flow.

This is what always amuses me about Romney's supporters. "We're not the least bit enthusiastic about him, but we think you'll be!"

Reality check, the guy who has the most enthusiastic supporters is the guy who wins. Obama's supporters are going to be enthusiastic. No doubt about that. Romney's supporters? Meh, not so much. He's safe. He's the guy your parents fixed you up with.

The guy who has the most enthusiastic supporters is not always the guy who wins. Think Ron Paul and Ross Perot. Clinton won with 43% of the vote in 1992.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Mitt.

Yep, me too.

Usually, I'd be inclined to do a write in, but right now, I'm gonna have to put the country over my personal desires.

Vote Mitt just to make sure we get big 0 out?



shit


I might have to do the same

 

[Full-Auto]

Obama, because I wouldn't want to give the LDS Cult control of my country...

I'll probably promptly puke afterwards...

If youre voting for obama you will need this tool.

Make sure you fire rapidly and repeatedly....................