If crimes "begin and end with the criminals who commit them,"....

[Talismen]

yet that same glock dealer will go to an NRA gun show and sell bumper stickers that say;

make America a better place, KILL a liberal
and "HUNTING PERMIT for LIBERALS"
and stickers that show a donkey with a target on its' back

is THAT decent and respectful?

You seriously think the left doesn't have equally distasteful bumper stickers?

yup
I did a very thorough search on line for;

liberal and democratic bumper stickers

and

conservative/republican bumper stickers

I found MANY SITES for both.

from the liberals I found things like;

save the whales
stop polluting
hate is NOT a family value
etc....

from the conservative sites I found;


nuke liberals
nuke france
nuke NY
club liberals, not (sandwhiches, seals)
make America a better place, kill a liberal
I accelerate for liberals
liberal HUNTING PERMITS
targets with pictures of liberals (obama, hilliary) on them

Transparent agenda...you're doin' it right.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Palin said, specifically that journalists and pundits were

"manufacturing a blood libel that serves only to incite the very hatred and violence they purport to condemn."

She is thus stating, unequivocally, her opinion that journalists/pundits CAN in fact incite violence with their words.

But she also says:

Acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own. They begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state, not with those who listen to talk radio, not with maps of swing districts used by both sides of the aisle

...thus contradicting what she said above that.

In short, she doesn't have a clue what she's talking about.

I am not defending her. I have not read what she said beyond this site nor do I care what she said. However, the way I see it is that by blaming the pundits i.e. "hate speech", rather than Jared Lee Loughner, we are taking away the focus on what it should be and that is that Mr. Loughner committed murder and quite frankly I believe he was mentally disturbed. If any blame should be placed on anyone's shoulders besides Jared Lee Loughner's it should be placed on the shoulders of the people and places that refused to help a man who needed help mentally.

I do not believe that anyone can successfully argue that this man was not mentally disturbed. Blaming politicians, pundits and internet speech is not the answer here. The focus should not be upon us being more civil to each other (although it would be nice if we were) but rather on what caused Jared Lee Loughner to snap last Saturday. I must say convincing me that our incivility to each other played any kind of a part in this will take a miracle.

Immie

I haven't really seen anyone make that either/or distinction. I've yet to hear anyone exonerate Loughner of his crimes on the grounds that the media, not he, was solely to blame.

 

[rikules]

You seriously think the left doesn't have equally distasteful bumper stickers?

yup
I did a very thorough search on line for;

liberal and democratic bumper stickers

and

conservative/republican bumper stickers

I found MANY SITES for both.

from the liberals I found things like;

save the whales
stop polluting
hate is NOT a family value
etc....

from the conservative sites I found;


nuke liberals
nuke france
nuke NY
club liberals, not (sandwhiches, seals)
make America a better place, kill a liberal
I accelerate for liberals
liberal HUNTING PERMITS
targets with pictures of liberals (obama, hilliary) on them

Transparent agenda...you're doin' it right.

Yup...

why don't you do it for yourself?


are you afraid of reality?

 

[NYcarbineer]

dude, tell me about it

here we are dissecting a sermonette from someone who got rolled, trashed, burned and taken to the cleaners in a day and half by everyone from the NY Times and Wapo to the real honest to goodness pajama laden denizen of grannies basement Blogger ...I mean the gall? How dare she barge into a story to defend herself against charges of inspiring murder?

I am merely showing the illogic and inconsistency in what she said, point by point, fact by fact (and which no one is so far disputing, so what I'm saying is apparently indisputable).

What's wrong, exactly, with what I'm doing?

not a thing. however; seen in the light of the fav. bugaboo de juer, the Big "H", how much energy did you expend on her behalf or anyone's for that matter who was accused of driving this guy over the edge into a murderous rage when in fact it was none of the above, zip nada bupkas...and had nothing to do with the right or left, not Palin and her graphic, not Kanjorski's rage against Rick Scott etc etc etc.?

No one really wants to talk about anythiing else. That's why I'm talking about this.

 

[Talismen]

yup
I did a very thorough search on line for;

liberal and democratic bumper stickers

and

conservative/republican bumper stickers

I found MANY SITES for both.

from the liberals I found things like;

save the whales
stop polluting
hate is NOT a family value
etc....

from the conservative sites I found;


nuke liberals
nuke france
nuke NY
club liberals, not (sandwhiches, seals)
make America a better place, kill a liberal
I accelerate for liberals
liberal HUNTING PERMITS
targets with pictures of liberals (obama, hilliary) on them

Transparent agenda...you're doin' it right.

Yup...

why don't you do it for yourself?


are you afraid of reality?

How's about we stop playing the bumper sticker game, and start playing with something much bigger? How's about protest signs?

Are you game? Do you dare?
Wanna see the political bile spewed via signage at a typical liberal protest?

Oh who am I kidding? You already know about it. You won't want to admit to it though.
You'll just find your own pics of the .001% of liberal plants and other extremist idiots who've shown up at Tea Party rallies and post those.

Really, seriously?
What about the video (now pulled down on youtube) of the twitter posts demanding Sarah Palin's death? What about those? I'm guessing you won't admit to seeing that? Conveniently....

 

[rikules]

Transparent agenda...you're doin' it right.

Yup...

why don't you do it for yourself?


are you afraid of reality?

How's about we stop playing the bumper sticker game, and start playing with something much bigger? How's about protest signs?

Are you game? Do you dare?
Wanna see the political bile spewed via signage at a typical liberal protest?

Oh who am I kidding? You already know about it. You won't want to admit to it though.
You'll just find your own pics of the .001% of liberal plants and other idiots who've shown up at Tea Party rallies and post those.

Really, seriously?
What about the video (now pulled down on youtube) of the twitter posts demanding Sarah Palin's death? What about those? I'm guessing you won't admit to seeing that? Conveniently....

"Are you game? Do you dare?
Wanna see the political bile spewed via signage at a typical liberal protest?"


I see.
You ARE afraid of the truth.

golly...what a sissy-boy you are

ok...
I win THAT round

"Are you game? Do you dare?
Wanna see the political bile spewed via signage at a typical liberal protest?"

Yes, I dare.
I'll play.

I've seen the posters held by cons/tea baggers at their rallys

besides the enormous amount of misspellings there is the enormous amount of obvious racial remarks and recomendations of violence.....= hate

so

go ahead
you post the liberal HATE posters and then i'll post the conservative hate posters

btw....
unlike YOU I NEVER denied that the left engages in some hateful rhetoric

I just believe (and believe I can show evidence) that the right wing engages in MORE hate and MORE HATEFUL

I have YET to see a liberal with a republican/conservative hunting permit

 

[Vanquish]

You might have won the bumper sticker round...but you'll lose the protest sign round. Hate to tell ya.

Head over to >bt: Brain Terminal and watch the videos there. Brian's got one called "Protesting the Protesters"...where he shows how bad libs can be. Nothing taken out of context...just asking them simple, non-confrontational questions. And libs use hate words...and hitler images...etc.

It happens on both sides. Get over yourselves. You're wasting energy on a non-issue.

 

[Talismen]

You might have won the bumper sticker round...but you'll lose the protest sign round. Hate to tell ya.

Head over to >bt: Brain Terminal and watch the videos there. Brian's got one called "Protesting the Protesters"...where he shows how bad libs can be. Nothing taken out of context...just asking them simple, non-confrontational questions. And libs use hate words...and hitler images...etc.

It happens on both sides. Get over yourselves. You're wasting energy on a non-issue.

Bingo.

 

[rikules]

Transparent agenda...you're doin' it right.

Yup...

why don't you do it for yourself?


are you afraid of reality?

How's about we stop playing the bumper sticker game, and start playing with something much bigger? How's about protest signs?

Are you game? Do you dare?
Wanna see the political bile spewed via signage at a typical liberal protest?

Oh who am I kidding? You already know about it. You won't want to admit to it though.
You'll just find your own pics of the .001% of liberal plants and other extremist idiots who've shown up at Tea Party rallies and post those.

Really, seriously?
What about the video (now pulled down on youtube) of the twitter posts demanding Sarah Palin's death? What about those? I'm guessing you won't admit to seeing that? Conveniently....

"What about the video (now pulled down on youtube) of the twitter posts demanding Sarah Palin's death? What about those? I'm guessing you won't admit to seeing that? "


in standish maine, after obama was elected, a store owner posted a sign asking patrons to "pick the date on which obama is assassinated"

the sign included the words.."let's hope.."

all over the country there were incidents of conservatives burning obama in effigy

glenn beck dreams of killing michael savage

rush limbaugh said "leave ONLY some liberals alive"
"liberals are the enemy...we are at war with liberals..in war it's OK to kill your enemies"

lt gen james mattis (conservative christian republican) "it's FUN to shoot SOME people"

ann coulter said her greatest regret re: 9/11 is that the terrorists didn't kill everyone at the new york times

a few years back there was a dirty bomb scare for NYC or Boston
I was on a yahoo message board at the time and a LARGE number of cons danced in the street at the thought of so many dead liberals


unlike YOU ( obviously a dangerously deranged and hate filled conservative)
I denounce hate speech on BOTH SIDES

while YOU (a dangerously deranged and hate filled conservative)
won't even admit that your side is (at least) as bad as the left


pardon me...but I must go puke now

 

[rikules]

You might have won the bumper sticker round...but you'll lose the protest sign round. Hate to tell ya.

Head over to >bt: Brain Terminal and watch the videos there. Brian's got one called "Protesting the Protesters"...where he shows how bad libs can be. Nothing taken out of context...just asking them simple, non-confrontational questions. And libs use hate words...and hitler images...etc.

It happens on both sides. Get over yourselves. You're wasting energy on a non-issue.

"You might have won the bumper sticker round...but you'll lose the protest sign round. Hate to tell ya."


sorry.
but that would have to be proven to me.
I've seen many images of rally signs at con rallys and tea party rallies and know how hateful and incendiary they can be.

I do NOT deny that the left can be bad or as bad

but I have yet to see them WORSE than the right

"brian's got one called "Protesting the Protesters"...where he shows how bad libs can be. "

no doubt.
but, again, having seen/heard/read the words/posters of cons....I know haw bad THEY can be


"Nothing taken out of context...just asking them simple, non-confrontational questions. And libs use hate words...and hitler images...etc."

like HITLARY?
or bill Klinton
or DEMINAZI?
or FEMINAZI?

like pictures of hillary in a nazi uniform?

you mean like that?

 

[Talismen]

You might have won the bumper sticker round...but you'll lose the protest sign round. Hate to tell ya.

Head over to >bt: Brain Terminal and watch the videos there. Brian's got one called "Protesting the Protesters"...where he shows how bad libs can be. Nothing taken out of context...just asking them simple, non-confrontational questions. And libs use hate words...and hitler images...etc.

It happens on both sides. Get over yourselves. You're wasting energy on a non-issue.

"You might have won the bumper sticker round...but you'll lose the protest sign round. Hate to tell ya."


sorry.
but that would have to be proven to me.
I've seen many images of rally signs at con rallys and tea party rallies and know how hateful and incendiary they can be.

I do NOT deny that the left can be bad or as bad

but I have yet to see them WORSE than the right

"brian's got one called "Protesting the Protesters"...where he shows how bad libs can be. "

no doubt.
but, again, having seen/heard/read the words/posters of cons....I know haw bad THEY can be


"Nothing taken out of context...just asking them simple, non-confrontational questions. And libs use hate words...and hitler images...etc."

like HITLARY?
or bill Klinton
or DEMINAZI?
or FEMINAZI?

like pictures of hillary in a nazi uniform?

you mean like that?

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

Thin-skinned, highly offendable and naive.
A waste of good bandwidth. Nothing more.

 

[geauxtohell]

than why the outrage over the Mosque at Ground Zero?

What are you parsing?

What POINT are you trying to relay?

You are MIXING events.

As to the Mosque genius?

The American people have an aversion to allowing the RELIGION of the KILLERS from that day holding SACRED GROUND.

Or aren't you that ******* bright and showing your lackluster brillience at being a Statist moron?

Tank-Engine:

I find it profoundly hilarious that you miss-spelled "brilliance" in your post.

Bravo.

 

[geauxtohell]

If the local imam is inciting violence, arranging payment to the families of suicide bombers, and telling people to kill innocents, then he is a criminal too.

Get it?

And if he's not?

 

[geauxtohell]

I think in his twisted mind denying the killers the privilege of building a mosque to establish Muslim dominance over Western culture at ground zero is the same as demolishing a mosque that already exists.

I guess. It's sick and twisted, but I think that's it.

Grump is a sad, hateful little bigot. I'd like to say he grows on you with time, but except in the sense that a fungus or viral infection grows, it just isn't true.

Yep Muslims through their history have a propensity of building MOSQUES on conquered LANDS...

Hence the project's FIRST NAME of 'Cordoba'...

And the scumbags certainly built a Mosque in Cordoba, Spain after their conquest.

Wouldn't you expect them to build mosques in their own territories? They controlled Spain for quite awhile back then. I'm sure there were plenty of Christian churches built during and shortly after the various Crusades in what had formally been Muslim territories.

The Muslim Community Center in NYC that has been termed the Ground Zero Mosque is not a monument of Muslim victory but rather a place of worship that American Muslims would like to build and according to our own Constitution they have the right to build it if they own the property.

I still feel that it would be disrespectful to build on ground zero.

Immie

The Christian Church also had a propensity to build Churches on lands that had been conquered by Christian Armys, etc.

Hell, the Catholic Church converted Central America and Mexico at the point of a sword.

 

[mdn2000]

They killed another Christian in Egypt today. How many think it would be cool for us to fly airplanes into the pyraminds and erect a big Christian Church on the site? Raise your hand!

I actually do think that would be cool.

We should of put a replica World Trade Center where the 9/11 hijackers were born, a giant cross, some Catholic holy water and a United States Marine Corp detachment to guard it forever.

Crime begins and ends with the criminal, that is pretty naive. First this was an act of war, not a crime. That war can be considered criminal is another point. The Moslem's after praying to Allah, started a war in the name of Allah. The Imam who is building the Mosque is being funded by Sunni Moslem's in the Middle East, who just happen to pray at the same Mosque's the hijackers prayed at.

Yes, a Mosque is more than appropriate, in the future history will look at our politically correct actions as idiocy and weakness. The Mosque will be great symbol to remind everyone that Obama Bin Laden went to war with the USA and won.

 

[geauxtohell]

you are seriously conflating issues so as to create a medium where in she can be made hypocritical, and you're right; thats hardly unique NY CArb.

Look, if you just want to trash her cool, but please, lets not pretend there is any intellectual honesty going on here.

She's not a hypocrite? Why not?

dude don't ask me vacant leading questions like that. you wanna discuss this or just emote and play games?

I answered the query of GTH a page or 2 back,....


here, becasue I like you, I'll re-post it right here;


I saw that as a twitter btw, in any event if 20 guys like this guy went out and committed the same crimes, then there is most probably a common causality, here this isn't the case, he appears unbalanced and....the end of him is the end of this singular event via his madness that drove him to it. I think the mosque and what we see as motivating factor behind Khobar towers, the embassies, the Cole, 911, Hasan are linked, it doesn't disappear with just 20 Terrorists.


as far as evil? no of course not, but its best we be on our guard, theres only one or 2 threads that ties the overarching threat together...*shrugs* what are we supposed to do forget the minute after a T act is committed or self bungled or unsuccessful for whatever reason?

This isn't a numbers game.

It's really the same thing: Take the actions of a few (or one) and apply them to a whole subset that doesn't share the same views.

Sarah Palin was outraged when people had the moxie to suggest her campaign rhetoric was even remotely responsible for Lougher's actions.

Yet, she had no problems applying that kind of illogical thought process to Islam as a whole to decry the GZ mosque.

So, unless we feel that Islam is inherently evil and that all followers of Islam believe as the 19 hijackers did, then it's no different.

 

[Trajan]

She's not a hypocrite? Why not?

dude don't ask me vacant leading questions like that. you wanna discuss this or just emote and play games?

I answered the query of GTH a page or 2 back,....


here, becasue I like you, I'll re-post it right here;


I saw that as a twitter btw, in any event if 20 guys like this guy went out and committed the same crimes, then there is most probably a common causality, here this isn't the case, he appears unbalanced and....the end of him is the end of this singular event via his madness that drove him to it. I think the mosque and what we see as motivating factor behind Khobar towers, the embassies, the Cole, 911, Hasan are linked, it doesn't disappear with just 20 Terrorists.


as far as evil? no of course not, but its best we be on our guard, theres only one or 2 threads that ties the overarching threat together...*shrugs* what are we supposed to do forget the minute after a T act is committed or self bungled or unsuccessful for whatever reason?

This isn't a numbers game.

It is in the context of the discussion. Anyway you slice it; by individual acts or acts by individuals.

It's really the same thing: Take the actions of a few (or one) and apply them to a whole subset that doesn't share the same views.

Who or what is that addressing exactly?

Sarah Palin was outraged when people had the moxie to suggest her campaign rhetoric was even remotely responsible for Lougher's actions.

They had the “Moxie”

Moxie……

1. The ability to face difficulty with spirit and courage.
2. Aggressive energy; initiative: "His prose has moxie, though it rushes and stumbles from a pent-up surge" (Patricia Hampl).
3. Skill; know-how.

1: energy, pep 2: courage, determination 3: know-how

Moxie - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Courage? Determination? Know how?

This is what it took to cast aspersions, none of which stand up to scrutiny ?

Man, I really don’t see that at all, it was shooting fish in a barrel. And, here we sit picking apart her response to getting shit on.

Yet, she had no problems applying that kind of illogical thought process to Islam as a whole to decry the GZ mosque.

She decried islam as a whole? So what, this whole smear was….revenge for her decrying Islam ( can you link to that please).

So, unless we feel that Islam is inherently evil and that all followers of Islam believe as the 19 hijackers did, then it's no different.

I am not sure how you mean that in response to what I said.

 

[BenNatuf]

1.) The 9/11 attack was not solely a crime, it was not even primarily a crime, it was an act of war.

2.) Preventing your eneimy in war from gaining a tool they can use against you is the province of the government.

3.) The propoganda value to AQ of a mosque being built at that location in their war against us outstrips anyones right to build a mosque there, unless of course you think property rights somehow extend so far as to allow a person tp provide aid and comfort to the enemy in war, whether or not that's the intention of the provider. (it is subjective and it is a judgement call)

 

[sangha]

For the same reason the local Glock dealer would not open up a store in the same strip mall where 20 people got shot, 6 killed.

It's the decent and respectful thing to do.

You are somehow equating the religion of a set of perpertators to a henous crime...that seem right to you, in the land of the free?

The Glock dealer was no more a perpetrator than the American Imam.

The Glock dealer would not think to open up a store on the site of a mass murder. Nobody would defend the decency of his decision to do that, including me.

The American Imam, he doesn't have the same decency and respect.

The mosque isn't on the sacred site of a mass murder. It's located at the formerly sacred Burlington House of Coats

 

[JamesInFlorida]

You are somehow equating the religion of a set of perpertators to a henous crime...that seem right to you, in the land of the free?

The Glock dealer was no more a perpetrator than the American Imam.

The Glock dealer would not think to open up a store on the site of a mass murder. Nobody would defend the decency of his decision to do that, including me.

The American Imam, he doesn't have the same decency and respect.

The mosque isn't on the sacred site of a mass murder. It's located at the formerly sacred Burlington House of Coats