I was strongly opposed to the war in Iraq.

[Neubarth]

Mind you guys, I am not a mamby pamby liberal. I am a strong conservative when it comes to national defense. I just did not see Saddam as a threat. He was a stable dictatorship that we could have used in an attack on Iran if we felt so lead. We have used dictatorships hundreds of times in the past when it suited out needs.

Ya gotta remember that our mentality during the cold war was that a country was safer with a military dictator than with a communist government. (Better dead than red was the philosophy.)

It heald off the advance of world wide communism, so perhaps is was at least partially correct.

Back to Iraq verses Iran. Iran is ruled by Radical Islam. Radical Islam at last count has issued over 100 Fatwas against the western democracies. To them we are the devil that needs to be destroyed. Osama bin Ladin is just a general in the overall Radical Islamic army. Mainstream Islam is not tolerant of Radical Islam, just like mainstream Christianity (Liberal Christianity) is intolerant of Fundamentalist Christianity. The mainstream guys just want to live a good life, do it with some religion so their daughters don't become tramps and their wives don't cheat on them. Beyond that the mainstream guys just want to live normal lives and be left along.

Radical Islam wants to pursue holy wars against the infides. Osama is Radical Islam and tried to wage war against the West. He was overjoyed when he heard reports that after 9/11 American checked out books on Islam from our libraries and many attended Mosques to attend services out of curiousity. Iran being Radical islamic sees the US as the enemy, and they have issued many declarations that they are working to destroy the US. Ahmedinejad has promised to destory Israel and the US and has funded RI actions round the world. Iran is our potential enemy. Iraq never was.

Too late to do anything about that now. Saddam is dead. He predicted that eventually the US will have to find a strong man to run that country in one piece, and I believe he was correct. How much you want to bet tha within three months after we pull out Radical islam will be in charge in Iraq. I think we let the Genie out of the bottle.

 

[Againsheila]

I wasn't. However I did have a caveat to my support. That being that if no WMD were found, Bush would be tried for treason.

Before the war I was willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. Clearly I was wrong.

 

[tigerbob]

Mind you guys, I am not a mamby pamby liberal. I am a strong conservative when it comes to national defense. I just did not see Saddam as a threat. He was a stable dictatorship that we could have used in an attack on Iran if we felt so lead. We have used dictatorships hundreds of times in the past when it suited out needs.

Ya gotta remember that our mentality during the cold war was that a country was safer with a military dictator than with a communist government. (Better dead than red was the philosophy.)

It heald off the advance of world wide communism, so perhaps is was at least partially correct.

Back to Iraq verses Iran. Iran is ruled by Radical Islam. Radical Islam at last count has issued over 100 Fatwas against the western democracies. To them we are the devil that needs to be destroyed. Osama bin Ladin is just a general in the overall Radical Islamic army. Mainstream Islam is not tolerant of Radical Islam, just like mainstream Christianity (Liberal Christianity) is intolerant of Fundamentalist Christianity. The mainstream guys just want to live a good life, do it with some religion so their daughters don't become tramps and their wives don't cheat on them. Beyond that the mainstream guys just want to live normal lives and be left along.

Radical Islam wants to pursue holy wars against the infides. Osama is Radical Islam and tried to wage war against the West. He was overjoyed when he heard reports that after 9/11 American checked out books on Islam from our libraries and many attended Mosques to attend services out of curiousity. Iran being Radical islamic sees the US as the enemy, and they have issued many declarations that they are working to destroy the US. Ahmedinejad has promised to destory Israel and the US and has funded RI actions round the world. Iran is our potential enemy. Iraq never was.

Too late to do anything about that now. Saddam is dead. He predicted that eventually the US will have to find a strong man to run that country in one piece, and I believe he was correct. How much you want to bet tha within three months after we pull out Radical islam will be in charge in Iraq. I think we let the Genie out of the bottle.

Unlike you, I supported taking military action on Iraq based on regime change. I think we failed in our calculations about how to win the peace after we won the war (sorry to use such a hackneyed phrase, but I think it's apt still), but trying was still the right decision.

Allowing Saddam to remain in power just to serve our own political ideals would, in my view, have been reprehensible. The man was a monster.

There are many other monsters around the world, so should we take action with them as well? Whether we should or shouldn't the simple answer is we can't. There is neither the will, the money or arguably the military strength to fight mini wars on the several fronts that would be needed.

That's where the UN should be making a difference but, like the League of Nations before, the UN is a paper tiger, torn by political rivalries and countries who take decisions based on what serves their interests rather than what serves the interests of humanity. I've always thought the UN should be a force to defend those who can't defend themselves. Yeah - fat chance.

Essentially, we're fucked. This state of affairs will not, I am absolutely certain, be resolved within my lifetime. It's a terrible shame, but entirely consistent with our history as a species.

 

[DavidS]

I wasn't. However I did have a caveat to my support. That being that if no WMD were found, Bush would be tried for treason.

Before the war I was willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. Clearly I was wrong.

Do you today believe that Bush himself knowingly inflated the intelligence pointing to the war in Iraq? Do you think he know that the intelligence was flawed and sold it to us anyway?

If Obama doesn't do what he says he's going, i.e. end the war in Iraq in 18 months, cut taxes for the lower and middle class, get us energy independent in 10 years, do you think we will EVER be able to trust the government again?

 

[strollingbones]

i am always amazed at the people who were against the iraq war...where were yall in 01 and 02....o wait...rabid with the idea of war...after 9/11 americans were willing to believe whatever it took...so afraid of another attack..remember the color alert codes..what became of them...o we were so proud attacking afghanistan..a country that had been engaged with the soviets for more than a decade...they were not and are not afraid of the title super power they have already forced one super power to withdraw. we was the outcry when the us toppled saddum and became engaged in the building and run of another country's governement. i simply refused to believe that all these people were against the war...its like vietnam vets on the net...if all the people claiming to be vets really were...that war would have been over in nanosecounds...(i mean zero offense to any vet but i think we all know the mentality i refer to) now it seems the next major lie..we were against the war....if making the big wave...arent the biggest lies the ones we tell ourselves?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Mind you guys, I am not a mamby pamby liberal. I am a strong conservative when it comes to national defense. I just did not see Saddam as a threat. He was a stable dictatorship that we could have used in an attack on Iran if we felt so lead. We have used dictatorships hundreds of times in the past when it suited out needs.

Ya gotta remember that our mentality during the cold war was that a country was safer with a military dictator than with a communist government. (Better dead than red was the philosophy.)

It heald off the advance of world wide communism, so perhaps is was at least partially correct.

Back to Iraq verses Iran. Iran is ruled by Radical Islam. Radical Islam at last count has issued over 100 Fatwas against the western democracies. To them we are the devil that needs to be destroyed. Osama bin Ladin is just a general in the overall Radical Islamic army. Mainstream Islam is not tolerant of Radical Islam, just like mainstream Christianity (Liberal Christianity) is intolerant of Fundamentalist Christianity. The mainstream guys just want to live a good life, do it with some religion so their daughters don't become tramps and their wives don't cheat on them. Beyond that the mainstream guys just want to live normal lives and be left along.

Radical Islam wants to pursue holy wars against the infides. Osama is Radical Islam and tried to wage war against the West. He was overjoyed when he heard reports that after 9/11 American checked out books on Islam from our libraries and many attended Mosques to attend services out of curiousity. Iran being Radical islamic sees the US as the enemy, and they have issued many declarations that they are working to destroy the US. Ahmedinejad has promised to destory Israel and the US and has funded RI actions round the world. Iran is our potential enemy. Iraq never was.

Too late to do anything about that now. Saddam is dead. He predicted that eventually the US will have to find a strong man to run that country in one piece, and I believe he was correct. How much you want to bet tha within three months after we pull out Radical islam will be in charge in Iraq. I think we let the Genie out of the bottle.

There was no reason to attack Iraq, just as there is no reason to attack Iran. Ahmadinejad has said some inflammatory things about Israel, but that is not cause for war. He hasn't actually done anything to the United States, and all evidence points to Iran ceasing it's nuclear weapons program in 2003. Our policy of preemptive war is absurd. If you can attack somebody for something they might do, then you open the doors to attack anybody at anytime.

Think about what you're saying for a moment, "We have used dictatorships hundreds of times in the past when it suited our needs." Do you honestly think that's a good policy? I'm not saying it's not true, because it certainly is, but do you believe it's a good idea? Blowback is the unintended results of our foreign policy. For example, we armed Osama bin-Laden and his fellows to fight off the Soviets during the Cold War, and later Osama attacks the United States. Why in the world should we have allied ourselves with Saddam Hussein to invade a nation that hasn't attacked us?

Saddam was only "stable" when he wasn't gassing his own people, and this is a person you'd be willing to work with? We do not have the right to invade a country and depose its leader simply because we don't like them, but neither should we ever work alongside a murderer and a tyrant.

 

[editec]

I was against invading Iraq.

Once we invaded and the society fell apart, I felt we were obliged to stay until civil authority could take over.

I'm informed we're almost to that point.

I hope I'm not being misinformed.

If the reports I'm hearing are correct, I think we can be out in 18 months.

 

[Againsheila]

Do you today believe that Bush himself knowingly inflated the intelligence pointing to the war in Iraq? Do you think he know that the intelligence was flawed and sold it to us anyway?

If Obama doesn't do what he says he's going, i.e. end the war in Iraq in 18 months, cut taxes for the lower and middle class, get us energy independent in 10 years, do you think we will EVER be able to trust the government again?

Yes I believe that Bush knowingly lied to get us into that war.

I already don't think we will ever be able to trust THIS government again. I think for some time now our government has been ruled by a small powerful elite group behind the scenes. I think it's passed time for our second revolution.

 

[editec]

Yes I believe that Bush knowingly lied to get us into that war.

I already don't think we will ever be able to trust THIS government again. I think for some time now our government has been ruled by a small powerful elite group behind the scenes. I think it's passed time for our second revolution.

Welcome to the Viet Nam generation's zietgiest, Again.

 

[Red Dawn]

I was strongly opposed to the war in Iraq.

You know, as the years go by, I'm finding more and more conservatives saying they were against the Iraq war from the outset. I hardly remember any Cons being against it in 2003. I suspect in four years, most Cons will be telling us that they never voted for George Bush.

Mind you guys, I am not a mamby pamby liberal. I am a strong conservative when it comes to national defense. I just did not see Saddam as a threat. He was a stable dictatorship that we could have used in an attack on Iran if we felt so lead. We have used dictatorships hundreds of times in the past when it suited out needs.

I agree with this. Saddam was a horrible thug, and a thorn in our side. But hardly a threat that merited a trillion dollar war and occupation, and the deaths and maimings of tens of thousands of americans.

Radical Islam wants to pursue holy wars against the infides. Osama is Radical Islam and tried to wage war against the West.

I think you newly minted "I didn't support the Iraq War!" Conservatives need to do a little more reading on islam and the Middle East.

Iran is a shia theocracy. Osama and Al Qaeda are sunni fundamentalists. Shia theocrats and Sunni Jihadists hate each other guts. Sunni Jihaddists think Shia are dogs, and would just as soon cut their heads off and piss on their dead bodies, as break bread with them. Iran was an enemy of both the Sunni Taliban and the sunni extremists who derive from the wahhabi tradtion on the Arabian pennisula. Rather than conflate sunni jihaddists, and persian shia theocrats, a wise and intelligent President would figure out ways to exploit their differences. Much as we exploited the differences between German fasicsts and Soveit communists.

Iran being Radical islamic sees the US as the enemy, and they have issued many declarations that they are working to destroy the US. Ahmedinejad has promised to destory Israel and the US and has funded RI actions round the world. Iran is our potential enemy. Iraq never was.

I'd like to see a credible link to a statement by Ahmedinejad that he intends to destroy the U.S. I don't think that ever happened, I think you're only imagining it happened. Or, maybe you heard somebody on rightwing talk radio say it.

He did say something about the State of Israel being wiped off the map. Although, that was a bad english translation. The actual translation from the Persian, as I understand it, is that the Zionest rulers of Isral will eventually be wiped from the face of history. There's a lot of ways to interpret that. A nuclear attack from Iran on Jerusalem is only one possible, and the most paranoid, interpretation. Nonetheless it was a stupid and beligerent thing to say. I seriously doubt Iran would ever contemplate a nuclear attack on Israel; the Iranian nation would be wiped off the face of the earth. And someone please tell me the last time Iran ever attacked another soveriegn nation? I think its been several hundred years at least, since Persia attacked and invaded another nation. That's not to say they aren't an appalling theocratic regime. I just want to see more credible evidence that we need war with them; evidence that was never provided in any credible way by the Bush republicans in their runup to the Iraq war.

Now, before we go launching another stupid and unneccessary war, its behooves us to remember that Ahmedinehad is a puppet in Iran. He holds no real power, and he's not even the leader of the State. Khameni is the ruler of Iran. Ahmadinajad is just a figure head. He does not control Iran's military, and constitutionally he can't even issue any orders to the military. His role is symbolic. He's not even that popular with the actual theocratic leaders of Iran. They don't partiuclary like some of his crazy ass statements. I've never heard the actual leaders call for the destruction of the United States.

 

[Gunny]

I wasn't. However I did have a caveat to my support. That being that if no WMD were found, Bush would be tried for treason.

Before the war I was willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. Clearly I was wrong.

Legal ignorance.

 

[Gunny]

Do you today believe that Bush himself knowingly inflated the intelligence pointing to the war in Iraq? Do you think he know that the intelligence was flawed and sold it to us anyway?

If Obama doesn't do what he says he's going, i.e. end the war in Iraq in 18 months, cut taxes for the lower and middle class, get us energy independent in 10 years, do you think we will EVER be able to trust the government again?

You trust the government?

 

[Gunny]

i am always amazed at the people who were against the iraq war...where were yall in 01 and 02....o wait...rabid with the idea of war...after 9/11 americans were willing to believe whatever it took...so afraid of another attack..remember the color alert codes..what became of them...o we were so proud attacking afghanistan..a country that had been engaged with the soviets for more than a decade...they were not and are not afraid of the title super power they have already forced one super power to withdraw. we was the outcry when the us toppled saddum and became engaged in the building and run of another country's governement. i simply refused to believe that all these people were against the war...its like vietnam vets on the net...if all the people claiming to be vets really were...that war would have been over in nanosecounds...(i mean zero offense to any vet but i think we all know the mentality i refer to) now it seems the next major lie..we were against the war....if making the big wave...arent the biggest lies the ones we tell ourselves?

Who cares where we were in 01/02? We invaded Iraq in 03.

Who are YOU to call people liars without evidence? I have stated repeatedly FOR YEARS invading Iraq was a bad decision.

Who are you to question that, or my service? It doesn't matter how many vets are on this board nor how many went to Vietnam. We are the warriors. We carry out policy, we don't make it. We had enough military in Vietnam by 1968 to annihilate North Vietnam and turn it into a parking lot. Guess what? The people running the show and giving the orders had "Mr" in front of their names, not a military rank.

The military and first Bush Administration predicted in 1991 that overthrowing Saddam Hussein's government would create exactly the power vaccuum it has, and that Saddam was the lesser of two evils. From 1991 to the day we invaded I firmly believed that and it has come to pass.

As far as Afghanistan goes, so what if they beat the Soviets? We ain't them. And last I checked, the Taliban is doing most of its fighting from Pakistan where they were driven. Somebody must have done something right despite all your support.

 

[Gunny]

You know, as the years go by, I'm finding more and more conservatives saying they were against the Iraq war from the outset. I hardly remember any Cons being against it in 2003. I suspect in four years, most Cons will be telling us that they never voted for George Bush.




I agree with this. Saddam was a horrible thug, and a thorn in our side. But hardly a threat that merited a trillion dollar war and occupation, and the deaths and maimings of tens of thousands of americans.




I think you newly minted "I didn't support the Iraq War!" Conservatives need to do a little more reading on islam and the Middle East.

Iran is a shia theocracy. Osama and Al Qaeda are sunni fundamentalists. Shia theocrats and Sunni Jihadists hate each other guts. Sunni Jihaddists think Shia are dogs, and would just as soon cut their heads off and piss on their dead bodies, as break bread with them. Iran was an enemy of both the Sunni Taliban and the sunni extremists who derive from the wahhabi tradtion on the Arabian pennisula. Rather than conflate sunni jihaddists, and persian shia theocrats, a wise and intelligent President would figure out ways to exploit their differences. Much as we exploited the differences between German fasicsts and Soveit communists.




I'd like to see a credible link to a statement by Ahmedinejad that he intends to destroy the U.S. I don't think that ever happened, I think you're only imagining it happened. Or, maybe you heard somebody on rightwing talk radio say it.

He did say something about the State of Israel being wiped off the map. Although, that was a bad english translation. The actual translation from the Persian, as I understand it, is that the Zionest rulers of Isral will eventually be wiped from the face of history. There's a lot of ways to interpret that. A nuclear attack from Iran on Jerusalem is only one possible, and the most paranoid, interpretation. Nonetheless it was a stupid and beligerent thing to say. I seriously doubt Iran would ever contemplate a nuclear attack on Israel; the Iranian nation would be wiped off the face of the earth. And someone please tell me the last time Iran ever attacked another soveriegn nation? I think its been several hundred years at least, since Persia attacked and invaded another nation. That's not to say they aren't an appalling theocratic regime. I just want to see more credible evidence that we need war with them; evidence that was never provided in any credible way by the Bush republicans in their runup to the Iraq war.

Now, before we go launching another stupid and unneccessary war, its behooves us to remember that Ahmedinehad is a puppet in Iran. He holds no real power, and he's not even the leader of the State. Khameni is the ruler of Iran. Ahmadinajad is just a figure head. He does not control Iran's military, and constitutionally he can't even issue any orders to the military. His role is symbolic. He's not even that popular with the actual theocratic leaders of Iran. They don't partiuclary like some of his crazy ass statements. I've never heard the actual leaders call for the destruction of the United States.

Can you ever make a coherent statement without being a stupid partisan hack?

 

[editec]

A war with Iran would be a terrible mistake.

If we win it, we're stuck to still another 70,049,262 pissed off tarbabies

And if we merely fight it to a stalemate what have we gained?

Were I POTUS I'd be working seriously to undermine the Islamic radicals which seem to have captured that nation, by throwing as much clandestine support to their POLITICAL opponents.

I seriously doubt that most Iranians are very happy with their current government, folks.

I know damned well that most of those folks want to live in the 21st century and they are no remotely interested in living in an Islamic fundamentalist dominated nation.

The Iranian PEOPLE are not the enemies of Americans, folks.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Yes I believe that Bush knowingly lied to get us into that war.
I already don't think we will ever be able to trust THIS government again. I think for some time now our government has been ruled by a small powerful elite group behind the scenes. I think it's passed time for our second revolution.

But now you have to be for the war because Barack Obama, America's first Black President, is for keeping the troops in Eyeraq until 2011. You need to adjust your opinions accordingly.

 

[editec]

But now you have to be for the war because Barack Obama, America's first Black President, is for keeping the troops in Eyeraq until 2011. You need to adjust your opinions accordingly.

What a load of neocon partisan crap.

I believe that AgainShiela is the only person qualified on this board to tell us what she must or must not believe.

Stop trying to spin other people's opinions into strawmen of your own device, jerkoff.

 

[Gunny]

A war with Iran would be a terrible mistake.

If we win it, we're stuck to still another 70,049,262 pissed off tarbabies

And if we merely fight it to a stalemate what have we gained?

Were I POTUS I'd be working seriously to undermine the Islamic radicals which seem to have captured that nation, by throwing as much clandestine support to their POLITICAL opponents.

I seriously doubt that most Iranians are very happy with their current government, folks.

I know damned well that most of those folks want to live in the 21st century and they are no remotely interested in living in an Islamic fundamentalist dominated nation.

The Iranian PEOPLE are not the enemies of Americans, folks.

Some are, some aren't. At the same time, the current regime needs to be at least neutralized. Before anyone goes off half-cocked as some nimrod did before, I am NOT suggesting war as an answer.

Invading Iran would backfire, IMO. I sincerely hope Strollingbones is taking note that I am saying this BEFORE anything has happened.

Iranians may not be cery happy with their current government, but they would side with that government against an invader in armed conflict. I know it seems like a dream, but remember 9/12/01? WE were ALL Americans and partisan political infighting took a back seat for a brief period of time.

The same would occur in Iran, IMO. And frankly, we don't have the National will anymore to win a war on the scale war with Iran would be.

 

[Gunny]

What a load of neocon partisan crap.

I believe that AgainShiela is the only person qualified on this board to tell us what she must or must not believe.

Stop trying to spin other people's opinions into strawmen of your own device, jerkoff.

She may very well be the only expert on what she believes; however, that does not validate the beliefs themselves.

For instance, anyone that holds the opinion that Bush intentionally lied in order to justify invading Iraq with absolutely no evidence is pretty-much believing what they want to believe.

Sure he sold us on Iraq. That's what politicians do. They sell shit. That doesn't mean he intentionally lied, nor is it somehow worse because Bush did it.

Held to the same standard, Obama's got a lot of 'splainin' to do, Lucy. Does he actually hold a stance now that he did when the Democratic Primaries began? Did HE lie?

It kills me that people on political message boards have this opinion that we are somehow "more politically astute" than the average when they can't even see past their partisan beliefs to see a sales ploy being sold by a salesman for what they are.

 

[Neubarth]

A war with Iran would be a terrible mistake.

If we win it, we're stuck to still another 70,049,262 pissed off tarbabies

And if we merely fight it to a stalemate what have we gained?

Were I POTUS I'd be working seriously to undermine the Islamic radicals which seem to have captured that nation, by throwing as much clandestine support to their POLITICAL opponents.

I seriously doubt that most Iranians are very happy with their current government, folks.

I know damned well that most of those folks want to live in the 21st century and they are no remotely interested in living in an Islamic fundamentalist dominated nation.

The Iranian PEOPLE are not the enemies of Americans, folks.

I have been in favor of destroying Iran ever since 1979-1980. I was in on the failed rescue effort of the American Embassy hostages. I have posted my displeasure with Iran on the Internet for the past 15 years or so. (I can't remember the date I first started posting as the Internet was growing so rapidly about 15 years ago.

This I know, I was roundly attacked by the "Do good, Feel Good, Make Love not War, leftover Hippies from the late Sixties crowd." There are still many of those lovable people around, but their women are no longer good looking like they were in the Sixties. I fondly remember the Sixties. Boy those were fun years!

When I post on a site that we need to deal with Iran, and over half the people on the site attack me, I know then that I am on a left over Hippie site and usually leave before they conspire to ban me. It is a game with them. I usually mention something about the hippie women are all old and knarly looking and leave with a smile on my face and no seriously hurt feelings.

Seriously, We could subdivide Iran into twenty ethnic regions and thus create twenty mini states. That would take the bite out of the Shitti Islamic Farsi speaking majority and create many mini states that would give many downtrodden people some freedom for once in their lives.

Case in point, A hundred years ago there were an estimated million Jews in Iran. A few thousand moved to Israel and a few thousand more moved to the north away from Iran. The Bulkaharan Jews claimed to be from the northern tribes of Israel. They relocated far to the north hundreds of years ago. Many of them were killed on pograms in the lands that were the Soviet Union just a few years ago. Most of the rest of the Iranian Jews disappeared never to be seen again. A lot of people could care less abut the Jews, but they have a right to life just like anybody else.

Ditto the Bahais. Since the Mullahs took over, the Bahai's have been greatly demished in number. Lately, the most recent excuse from Iran is that those missing Bahai's never existed in the first place. They were just a figment of everybody's imagination. I think they did exist, and I am quite convinced that they are dead. In dealing with Iran, we are dealing with a government as demonically evil as Hitler's Germany. (I wonder if it is the same demons who had Hitler under their spell???)

Bahai's are such peaceful people. The world needs more of them. They need their own mini-state. Sadly, their dead bodies keep on showing up on the outskirts of Teheran. It is not safe to be anything but a Shitti under the present Mullah-dictatorship led (Democratic?) government of Iran. All others live their at their extreme peril.

Iran needs to be broken up into small countries. Most of the oil producing parts of Iran have indigenous Arab populations. They do not see themselves as Persian, and they refuse to speak Farsi. I don't blame them. Those lands need to be taken away from the Persians and given to these minority Arabs who would be most thankful to have military assistance from Nato or Saudi Arabia to help them maintain their independance from tyrany as manifested as the Radical Islamic government of Iran.