I was more at risk in 1962 when I was 9

[Desperado]

Which brings up a good point.
By 1981, USA had 8,000 ICBM’s and USSR 7,000 ICBM’s
By 1981, USA had 4,000 planes capable of delivering a nuclear bomb. Russia had 5000.
By 1986, it is estimated that throughout the world there were 40,000 nuclear warheads - the equivalent of one million Hiroshima bombs.

So explain to me why Iran getting one bomb is such a big deal?

 

[gipper]

Here is what we know now. The CIA willfully LIED to the President of the United States to bait him into an invasion of Cuba, and a probable war with Russia. JFK had no use for the CIA after the Bay of Pigs and threatening to "shatter the agency into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds."


Bay of Pigs

Washington's national-security apparatus had decided there was no living with Castro. During the final months of the Eisenhower Administration, the CIA started planning an invasion of the island, recruiting Cuban exiles who had fled the new regime. Agency officials assured the young President who inherited the invasion plan that it was a "slam dunk," in the words of a future CIA director contemplating another ill-fated U.S. invasion. J.F.K. had deep misgivings, but unwilling to overrule his senior intelligence officials so early in his Administration, he went fatefully ahead with the plan. The doomed Bay of Pigs invasion in April 1961 became the Kennedy Administration's first great trauma.

We now know—from the CIA's internal history of the Bay of Pigs, which was declassified in 2005—that agency officials realized their motley crew of invaders had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the U.S. military. But Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell, the top CIA officials, never disclosed this to J.F.K. They clearly thought the young President would cave in the heat of battle, that he would be forced to send in the Marines and Air Force to rescue the beleaguered exiles brigade after it was pinned down on the beaches by Castro's forces. But Kennedy—who was concerned about aggravating the U.S. image in Latin America as a Yanqui bully and also feared a Soviet countermove against West Berlin—had warned agency officials that he would not fully intervene. As the invasion quickly bogged down at the swampy landing site, J.F.K. stunned Dulles and Bissell by standing his ground and refusing to escalate the assault.

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

And the story continues....JFK was murdered in a coup d'état a couple years later, lead by the US military/CIA. All because he would not go along with the bastards running the military-industrial complex who demanded war. Then, the Butcher of Vietnam put Dulles (whom JFK fired for the Bay of Pigs debacle) in charge of the Warren Commission. Too CRAZY!!! He also immediately raved up our involvement in Nam leading to another debacle, but this time with lots of dead American boys and wasted treasure.

And yet after all these lies, killings, and corruption, our military-industrial-government complex is as strong and influential as ever.

The reason for President Eisenhower's military/industrial complex warning in his farewell address was not theory. Eisenhower's finest moment, Detente with the Soviet Union as he was leaving office was destroyed by the CIA.


THE SABOTAGING OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENCY
by L. Fletcher Prouty


In 1960, the Secret Team, terrified that President Eisenhower was coming to terms with the USSR, resolved that there must be no peace. A surefire plan was needed to destruct the upcoming summit conference. What better way to show American bad faith than by arranging for a US "spy" plane to be forced down over the USSR on the Russian's most important national holiday.


President Eisenhower looked forward to visiting the Soviet Union during May of 1960, along with increasing the level of dialogue with Premier Krushchev regarding implementation of a genuine halt to the arms race. His Crusade for Peace was intended to reach a new level of understanding ushered in with the planned meeting in Paris on May 16, followed by a tour of Russia many expected to be a resounding success for both sides. Charles Bohlen (Russian ambassador from 4/53 to 12/56) recalls, "I was certainly enthusiastic about Eisenhower's scheduled trip to the Soviet Union. Eisenhower was not only a President, he was also a war hero. The Russians would have loved him." [Witness to History, p.462]

But despite all the effort and planning the President of the United States was pinning his forty-five years of government service on the successful outcome of, he found himself outmatched by a very tight-knit group of people operating within the newly-birthed powers of the National Security State complex. When, in his farewell address, he spoke of "guard[ing] against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex", he was not describing some abstract concept about what might lie ahead -- he was going as far as he dared in speaking publicly about his own painful experiences. When he stated "the potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist" he was alluding to his own ordeal of crushed hopes for a better world for all.

The urgency of these words -- to take nothing for granted, to call for an alert and knowledgeable citizenry as the only protection against an unwarranted and unaccountable exercising of power, "to compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals" -- these words were spoken by a man who, although Commander-In-Chief, and "leader of the free world," was not truly the one deciding what agendas the United States would pursue and who would benefit by those agendas.

...

But in 1960 when President Eisenhower launched his Crusade for Peace to bring about a lasting detente with the Soviet Union, one U-2 airplane, one pilot, and the invisible enemy shattered his dream. That U-2, flown into the USSR on May 1, 1960 by Francis Gary Powers was not on a spy mission as had been alleged. It was launched for the sole purpose of destroying whatever chance there was for peace. It was the weapon of the war lovers -- the missile of the industrial complex.

Ike learned what other world leaders have learned: it is easier to wage war than to make peace. In war the enemy is visible, and he is usually on the other side.

"The Sabotaging of the American Presidency" -- the U-2 debacle by L. Fletcher Prouty

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leroy Fletcher Prouty (January 24, 1917 – June 5, 2001) served as Chief of Special Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President John F. Kennedy. A former colonel in the United States Air Force.

From 1955–1964 he was assigned to U.S. Air Force Headquarters where he directed the creation of an Air Force worldwide system for "Military Support of the Clandestine Operations of the CIA", as required by a new National Security Council Directive, 5412 of March, 1954. As a result of a CIA Commendation for this work he was awarded the Legion of Merit by the US Air Force, and was promoted to Colonel being assigned to the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

And yet Ike, who had to suspect the military/CIA was involved in JFK's murder, said nothing about it. Who knows?...had he publicly fingered them, JFK's intention to destroy the CIA, might have occurred. And the millions of deaths and massive destruction in SE Asia might also never have happened.

The consequences of an omnipresent statist tyrannical government, are most horrendous. And yet, many Americans want the central government to have more power and authority.

 

[Bfgrn]

And the story continues....JFK was murdered in a coup d'état a couple years later, lead by the US military/CIA. All because he would not go along with the bastards running the military-industrial complex who demanded war. Then, the Butcher of Vietnam put Dulles (whom JFK fired for the Bay of Pigs debacle) in charge of the Warren Commission. Too CRAZY!!! He also immediately raved up our involvement in Nam leading to another debacle, but this time with lots of dead American boys and wasted treasure.

And yet after all these lies, killings, and corruption, our military-industrial-government complex is as strong and influential as ever.

The reason for President Eisenhower's military/industrial complex warning in his farewell address was not theory. Eisenhower's finest moment, Detente with the Soviet Union as he was leaving office was destroyed by the CIA.


THE SABOTAGING OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENCY
by L. Fletcher Prouty


In 1960, the Secret Team, terrified that President Eisenhower was coming to terms with the USSR, resolved that there must be no peace. A surefire plan was needed to destruct the upcoming summit conference. What better way to show American bad faith than by arranging for a US "spy" plane to be forced down over the USSR on the Russian's most important national holiday.


President Eisenhower looked forward to visiting the Soviet Union during May of 1960, along with increasing the level of dialogue with Premier Krushchev regarding implementation of a genuine halt to the arms race. His Crusade for Peace was intended to reach a new level of understanding ushered in with the planned meeting in Paris on May 16, followed by a tour of Russia many expected to be a resounding success for both sides. Charles Bohlen (Russian ambassador from 4/53 to 12/56) recalls, "I was certainly enthusiastic about Eisenhower's scheduled trip to the Soviet Union. Eisenhower was not only a President, he was also a war hero. The Russians would have loved him." [Witness to History, p.462]

But despite all the effort and planning the President of the United States was pinning his forty-five years of government service on the successful outcome of, he found himself outmatched by a very tight-knit group of people operating within the newly-birthed powers of the National Security State complex. When, in his farewell address, he spoke of "guard[ing] against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex", he was not describing some abstract concept about what might lie ahead -- he was going as far as he dared in speaking publicly about his own painful experiences. When he stated "the potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist" he was alluding to his own ordeal of crushed hopes for a better world for all.

The urgency of these words -- to take nothing for granted, to call for an alert and knowledgeable citizenry as the only protection against an unwarranted and unaccountable exercising of power, "to compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals" -- these words were spoken by a man who, although Commander-In-Chief, and "leader of the free world," was not truly the one deciding what agendas the United States would pursue and who would benefit by those agendas.

...

But in 1960 when President Eisenhower launched his Crusade for Peace to bring about a lasting detente with the Soviet Union, one U-2 airplane, one pilot, and the invisible enemy shattered his dream. That U-2, flown into the USSR on May 1, 1960 by Francis Gary Powers was not on a spy mission as had been alleged. It was launched for the sole purpose of destroying whatever chance there was for peace. It was the weapon of the war lovers -- the missile of the industrial complex.

Ike learned what other world leaders have learned: it is easier to wage war than to make peace. In war the enemy is visible, and he is usually on the other side.

"The Sabotaging of the American Presidency" -- the U-2 debacle by L. Fletcher Prouty

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leroy Fletcher Prouty (January 24, 1917 – June 5, 2001) served as Chief of Special Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President John F. Kennedy. A former colonel in the United States Air Force.

From 1955–1964 he was assigned to U.S. Air Force Headquarters where he directed the creation of an Air Force worldwide system for "Military Support of the Clandestine Operations of the CIA", as required by a new National Security Council Directive, 5412 of March, 1954. As a result of a CIA Commendation for this work he was awarded the Legion of Merit by the US Air Force, and was promoted to Colonel being assigned to the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

And yet Ike, who had to suspect the military/CIA was involved in JFK's murder, said nothing about it. Who knows?...had he publicly fingered them, JFK's intention to destroy the CIA, might have occurred. And the millions of deaths and massive destruction in SE Asia might also never have happened.

The consequences of an omnipresent statist tyrannical government, are most horrendous. And yet, many Americans want the central government to have more power and authority.

No, Americans should want the elected government to be the REAL government.

 

[gipper]

The reason for President Eisenhower's military/industrial complex warning in his farewell address was not theory. Eisenhower's finest moment, Detente with the Soviet Union as he was leaving office was destroyed by the CIA.


THE SABOTAGING OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENCY
by L. Fletcher Prouty


In 1960, the Secret Team, terrified that President Eisenhower was coming to terms with the USSR, resolved that there must be no peace. A surefire plan was needed to destruct the upcoming summit conference. What better way to show American bad faith than by arranging for a US "spy" plane to be forced down over the USSR on the Russian's most important national holiday.


President Eisenhower looked forward to visiting the Soviet Union during May of 1960, along with increasing the level of dialogue with Premier Krushchev regarding implementation of a genuine halt to the arms race. His Crusade for Peace was intended to reach a new level of understanding ushered in with the planned meeting in Paris on May 16, followed by a tour of Russia many expected to be a resounding success for both sides. Charles Bohlen (Russian ambassador from 4/53 to 12/56) recalls, "I was certainly enthusiastic about Eisenhower's scheduled trip to the Soviet Union. Eisenhower was not only a President, he was also a war hero. The Russians would have loved him." [Witness to History, p.462]

But despite all the effort and planning the President of the United States was pinning his forty-five years of government service on the successful outcome of, he found himself outmatched by a very tight-knit group of people operating within the newly-birthed powers of the National Security State complex. When, in his farewell address, he spoke of "guard[ing] against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex", he was not describing some abstract concept about what might lie ahead -- he was going as far as he dared in speaking publicly about his own painful experiences. When he stated "the potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist" he was alluding to his own ordeal of crushed hopes for a better world for all.

The urgency of these words -- to take nothing for granted, to call for an alert and knowledgeable citizenry as the only protection against an unwarranted and unaccountable exercising of power, "to compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals" -- these words were spoken by a man who, although Commander-In-Chief, and "leader of the free world," was not truly the one deciding what agendas the United States would pursue and who would benefit by those agendas.

...

But in 1960 when President Eisenhower launched his Crusade for Peace to bring about a lasting detente with the Soviet Union, one U-2 airplane, one pilot, and the invisible enemy shattered his dream. That U-2, flown into the USSR on May 1, 1960 by Francis Gary Powers was not on a spy mission as had been alleged. It was launched for the sole purpose of destroying whatever chance there was for peace. It was the weapon of the war lovers -- the missile of the industrial complex.

Ike learned what other world leaders have learned: it is easier to wage war than to make peace. In war the enemy is visible, and he is usually on the other side.

"The Sabotaging of the American Presidency" -- the U-2 debacle by L. Fletcher Prouty

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leroy Fletcher Prouty (January 24, 1917 – June 5, 2001) served as Chief of Special Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President John F. Kennedy. A former colonel in the United States Air Force.

From 1955–1964 he was assigned to U.S. Air Force Headquarters where he directed the creation of an Air Force worldwide system for "Military Support of the Clandestine Operations of the CIA", as required by a new National Security Council Directive, 5412 of March, 1954. As a result of a CIA Commendation for this work he was awarded the Legion of Merit by the US Air Force, and was promoted to Colonel being assigned to the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

And yet Ike, who had to suspect the military/CIA was involved in JFK's murder, said nothing about it. Who knows?...had he publicly fingered them, JFK's intention to destroy the CIA, might have occurred. And the millions of deaths and massive destruction in SE Asia might also never have happened.

The consequences of an omnipresent statist tyrannical government, are most horrendous. And yet, many Americans want the central government to have more power and authority.

No, Americans should want the elected government to be the REAL government.

They do. But they don't get it. Because the government now is too big and too powerful. Limited government is the answer because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Bfgrn]

And yet Ike, who had to suspect the military/CIA was involved in JFK's murder, said nothing about it. Who knows?...had he publicly fingered them, JFK's intention to destroy the CIA, might have occurred. And the millions of deaths and massive destruction in SE Asia might also never have happened.

The consequences of an omnipresent statist tyrannical government, are most horrendous. And yet, many Americans want the central government to have more power and authority.

No, Americans should want the elected government to be the REAL government.

They do. But they don't get it. Because the government now is too big and too powerful. Limited government is the answer because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

No, YOU don't 'get it'...at ALL. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Our founding fathers set up a legitimate government, with a balance of power between the executive, legislative and judicial branches. They did not sanction a secretive rogue element shadow government.

Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government.
Edmund Burke

 

[gipper]

No, Americans should want the elected government to be the REAL government.

They do. But they don't get it. Because the government now is too big and too powerful. Limited government is the answer because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

No, YOU don't 'get it'...at ALL. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Our founding fathers set up a legitimate government, with a balance of power between the executive, legislative and judicial branches. They did not sanction a secretive rogue element shadow government.

Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government.
Edmund Burke

You are a dreamer. The founding fathers never envisioned or desired the government we have now. You think the founders gave us a feeble government....what foolishness.

Do you deny that if we had the government the Founders gave us, the rogue elements would NOT exist? Of course they would not, but apparently you don't see that.

Limited government is the answer. You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers (what we have today and not what the Founders gave us) can somehow NOT have rogue elements and just be nice and peachy...said with a limp wrist. This is poppycock and immature thinking. You do not know the nature of man.

 

[Jarlaxle]

than any citizen in WW2

Feeble attempts by the Axis against the US mainaland were comic.

When I was9 - the Cuban Missle crissles was nor so funny.

The missles in Cuba could have reached Seattle.

What the ****?

Yeah, pretty much!

 

[Bfgrn]

They do. But they don't get it. Because the government now is too big and too powerful. Limited government is the answer because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

No, YOU don't 'get it'...at ALL. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Our founding fathers set up a legitimate government, with a balance of power between the executive, legislative and judicial branches. They did not sanction a secretive rogue element shadow government.

Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government.
Edmund Burke

You are a dreamer. The founding fathers never envisioned or desired the government we have now. You think the founders gave us a feeble government....what foolishness.

Do you deny that if we had the government the Founders gave us, the rogue elements would NOT exist? Of course they would not, but apparently you don't see that.

Limited government is the answer. You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers (what we have today and not what the Founders gave us) can somehow NOT have rogue elements and just be nice and peachy...said with a limp wrist. This is poppycock and immature thinking. You do not know the nature of man.

You are making a fool out of yourself. This is about structure, not size of government, and this is about reality, not some dreams about a world that no longer exists. Thomas Jefferson's vision of America was an agrarian society where every mans occupation was husbandry. Is THAT what you are calling for? Talk about poppycock and immature thinking.

The founding fathers never envisioned a world with nuclear weapons or any of the technological advances over the last 200 years.

Your accusation 'You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers' is childish and immature. You really don't know what you are talking about or what the topic is.

It would be advisable for you to read Eisenhower's farewell address where he explains how the military/industrial complex came to be.

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 

[gipper]

No, YOU don't 'get it'...at ALL. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Our founding fathers set up a legitimate government, with a balance of power between the executive, legislative and judicial branches. They did not sanction a secretive rogue element shadow government.

Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government.
Edmund Burke

You are a dreamer. The founding fathers never envisioned or desired the government we have now. You think the founders gave us a feeble government....what foolishness.

Do you deny that if we had the government the Founders gave us, the rogue elements would NOT exist? Of course they would not, but apparently you don't see that.

Limited government is the answer. You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers (what we have today and not what the Founders gave us) can somehow NOT have rogue elements and just be nice and peachy...said with a limp wrist. This is poppycock and immature thinking. You do not know the nature of man.

You are making a fool out of yourself. This is about structure, not size of government, and this is about reality, not some dreams about a world that no longer exists. Thomas Jefferson's vision of America was an agrarian society where every mans occupation was husbandry. Is THAT what you are calling for? Talk about poppycock and immature thinking.

The founding fathers never envisioned a world with nuclear weapons or any of the technological advances over the last 200 years.

Your accusation 'You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers' is childish and immature. You really don't know what you are talking about or what the topic is.

It would be advisable for you to read Eisenhower's farewell address where he explains how the military/industrial complex came to be.

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

How do you think we got this HUGE military industrial complex that Ike warns of? Did we have it when the nation was founded? Did we have it during the War of Northern Aggression? Did we have it in the late 19th century? Did we have it during WWI? NOOOOOOOO... We got it when the government grew exponentially all thanks to stinking progressives, during and after WWII.

Explain to me how a limited government that is forced to abide by the Constitution, grants powers to rogue agencies like the CIA? Can't be done my deluded dreaming adversary. It can only be done when a government gets too big and too powerful, while ignoring the Constitution.

If you remember your history, when power is centralized for any large and powerful nation, shit happens.

America is a nation that is NOT ruled by law. It is ruled by men. When you allow power to centralize into the hands of a few men, as the stinking progressives have done, they can do anything they wish. My dear dreamer, here is the point you are missing. If you limit the power, man can't do terrible things. It is the only way to prevent terrible things from happening.

 

[mememe]

Which brings up a good point.
By 1981, USA had 8,000 ICBM’s and USSR 7,000 ICBM’s
By 1981, USA had 4,000 planes capable of delivering a nuclear bomb. Russia had 5000.
By 1986, it is estimated that throughout the world there were 40,000 nuclear warheads - the equivalent of one million Hiroshima bombs.

So explain to me why Iran getting one bomb is such a big deal?

It isn't. But the pre-text is needed, like WMD/Iraq, 9.11/Afghanistan...

 

[Bfgrn]

You are a dreamer. The founding fathers never envisioned or desired the government we have now. You think the founders gave us a feeble government....what foolishness.

Do you deny that if we had the government the Founders gave us, the rogue elements would NOT exist? Of course they would not, but apparently you don't see that.

Limited government is the answer. You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers (what we have today and not what the Founders gave us) can somehow NOT have rogue elements and just be nice and peachy...said with a limp wrist. This is poppycock and immature thinking. You do not know the nature of man.

You are making a fool out of yourself. This is about structure, not size of government, and this is about reality, not some dreams about a world that no longer exists. Thomas Jefferson's vision of America was an agrarian society where every mans occupation was husbandry. Is THAT what you are calling for? Talk about poppycock and immature thinking.

The founding fathers never envisioned a world with nuclear weapons or any of the technological advances over the last 200 years.

Your accusation 'You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers' is childish and immature. You really don't know what you are talking about or what the topic is.

It would be advisable for you to read Eisenhower's farewell address where he explains how the military/industrial complex came to be.

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

How do you think we got this HUGE military industrial complex that Ike warns of? Did we have it when the nation was founded? Did we have it during the War of Northern Aggression? Did we have it in the late 19th century? Did we have it during WWI? NOOOOOOOO... We got it when the government grew exponentially all thanks to stinking progressives, during and after WWII.

Explain to me how a limited government that is forced to abide by the Constitution, grants powers to rogue agencies like the CIA? Can't be done my deluded dreaming adversary. It can only be done when a government gets too big and too powerful, while ignoring the Constitution.

If you remember your history, when power is centralized for any large and powerful nation, shit happens.

America is a nation that is NOT ruled by law. It is ruled by men. When you allow power to centralize into the hands of a few men, as the stinking progressives have done, they can do anything they wish. My dear dreamer, here is the point you are missing. If you limit the power, man can't do terrible things. It is the only way to prevent terrible things from happening.

You are a very simple minded ideologue who believes a) we live in a vacuum and b) the ONLY entity we need to fear is government. Even though it is government, not a corporation our founding fathers created to address the needs of We, the People not the needs of corporations that build weapons.

 

[gipper]

You are making a fool out of yourself. This is about structure, not size of government, and this is about reality, not some dreams about a world that no longer exists. Thomas Jefferson's vision of America was an agrarian society where every mans occupation was husbandry. Is THAT what you are calling for? Talk about poppycock and immature thinking.

The founding fathers never envisioned a world with nuclear weapons or any of the technological advances over the last 200 years.

Your accusation 'You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers' is childish and immature. You really don't know what you are talking about or what the topic is.

It would be advisable for you to read Eisenhower's farewell address where he explains how the military/industrial complex came to be.

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

How do you think we got this HUGE military industrial complex that Ike warns of? Did we have it when the nation was founded? Did we have it during the War of Northern Aggression? Did we have it in the late 19th century? Did we have it during WWI? NOOOOOOOO... We got it when the government grew exponentially all thanks to stinking progressives, during and after WWII.

Explain to me how a limited government that is forced to abide by the Constitution, grants powers to rogue agencies like the CIA? Can't be done my deluded dreaming adversary. It can only be done when a government gets too big and too powerful, while ignoring the Constitution.

If you remember your history, when power is centralized for any large and powerful nation, shit happens.

America is a nation that is NOT ruled by law. It is ruled by men. When you allow power to centralize into the hands of a few men, as the stinking progressives have done, they can do anything they wish. My dear dreamer, here is the point you are missing. If you limit the power, man can't do terrible things. It is the only way to prevent terrible things from happening.

You are a very simple minded ideologue who believes a) we live in a vacuum and b) the ONLY entity we need to fear is government. Even though it is government, not a corporation our founding fathers created to address the needs of We, the People not the needs of corporations that build weapons.

One knows they have won the debate when their opponent resorts to insults.

Let me put it simply....you identified the problem (rogue gov agencies) and we agreed on that. I then took our debate to another level. I identified the CAUSE and the SOLUTION. For this, you denigrated me.

Is it because you find big omnipresent tyrannical statist centralized government to your liking? Or could it be you believe the nature of man is good?

 

[Bfgrn]

How do you think we got this HUGE military industrial complex that Ike warns of? Did we have it when the nation was founded? Did we have it during the War of Northern Aggression? Did we have it in the late 19th century? Did we have it during WWI? NOOOOOOOO... We got it when the government grew exponentially all thanks to stinking progressives, during and after WWII.

Explain to me how a limited government that is forced to abide by the Constitution, grants powers to rogue agencies like the CIA? Can't be done my deluded dreaming adversary. It can only be done when a government gets too big and too powerful, while ignoring the Constitution.

If you remember your history, when power is centralized for any large and powerful nation, shit happens.

America is a nation that is NOT ruled by law. It is ruled by men. When you allow power to centralize into the hands of a few men, as the stinking progressives have done, they can do anything they wish. My dear dreamer, here is the point you are missing. If you limit the power, man can't do terrible things. It is the only way to prevent terrible things from happening.

You are a very simple minded ideologue who believes a) we live in a vacuum and b) the ONLY entity we need to fear is government. Even though it is government, not a corporation our founding fathers created to address the needs of We, the People not the needs of corporations that build weapons.

One knows they have won the debate when their opponent resorts to insults.

Let me put it simply....you identified the problem (rogue gov agencies) and we agreed on that. I then took our debate to another level. I identified the CAUSE and the SOLUTION. For this, you denigrated me.

Is it because you find big omnipresent tyrannical statist centralized government to your liking? Or could it be you believe the nature of man is good?

You have not identified the CAUSE and the SOLUTION. You have stated an ideology as some panacea. I will state it AGAIN:

This is about structure, not size of government, and this is about reality, not some dreams about a world that no longer exists. Thomas Jefferson's vision of America was an agrarian society where every mans occupation was husbandry. Is THAT what you are calling for? Talk about poppycock and immature thinking.

The founding fathers never envisioned a world with nuclear weapons or any of the technological advances over the last 200 years.

Your accusation 'You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers' is childish and immature. You really don't know what you are talking about or what the topic is.

It would be advisable for you to read Eisenhower's farewell address where he explains how the military/industrial complex came to be.

Your Utopian solution is naive and not thought out. If we castrate government, do you REALLY BELIEVE the military/industrial complex will evaporate? Do you REALLY believe the huge corporate special interests will no longer covet the natural resources of other countries? Your solution would open the flood gates to a full blown oligarchy. But you didn't THINK that far ahead, now did you? You live in a vacuum.

 

[gipper]

You are a very simple minded ideologue who believes a) we live in a vacuum and b) the ONLY entity we need to fear is government. Even though it is government, not a corporation our founding fathers created to address the needs of We, the People not the needs of corporations that build weapons.

One knows they have won the debate when their opponent resorts to insults.

Let me put it simply....you identified the problem (rogue gov agencies) and we agreed on that. I then took our debate to another level. I identified the CAUSE and the SOLUTION. For this, you denigrated me.

Is it because you find big omnipresent tyrannical statist centralized government to your liking? Or could it be you believe the nature of man is good?

You have not identified the CAUSE and the SOLUTION. You have stated an ideology as some panacea. I will state it AGAIN:

This is about structure, not size of government, and this is about reality, not some dreams about a world that no longer exists. Thomas Jefferson's vision of America was an agrarian society where every mans occupation was husbandry. Is THAT what you are calling for? Talk about poppycock and immature thinking.

The founding fathers never envisioned a world with nuclear weapons or any of the technological advances over the last 200 years.

Your accusation 'You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers' is childish and immature. You really don't know what you are talking about or what the topic is.

It would be advisable for you to read Eisenhower's farewell address where he explains how the military/industrial complex came to be.

Your Utopian solution is naive and not thought out. If we castrate government, do you REALLY BELIEVE the military/industrial complex will evaporate? Do you REALLY believe the huge corporate special interests will no longer covet the natural resources of other countries? Your solution would open the flood gates to a full blown oligarchy. But you didn't THINK that far ahead, now did you? You live in a vacuum.

Lets see...you think we NEED a huge omnipresent government, which gave us the rogue elements we dislike, to keep out the rogue elements. Do you fail to see how foolish that is?

You also fail to learn from history. Wherever a large statist government has existed, rogue elements have existed. Conversely, a limited small central government likely does not have rogue elements. History proves me right and you wrong.

You think big government is a solution. I think big government is the problem.

Why do you persist in failing to learn from history? Do you think history is not applicable to this problem? Is this some kind of NEW problem humans have not faced in the past?

 

[Bfgrn]

One knows they have won the debate when their opponent resorts to insults.

Let me put it simply....you identified the problem (rogue gov agencies) and we agreed on that. I then took our debate to another level. I identified the CAUSE and the SOLUTION. For this, you denigrated me.

Is it because you find big omnipresent tyrannical statist centralized government to your liking? Or could it be you believe the nature of man is good?

You have not identified the CAUSE and the SOLUTION. You have stated an ideology as some panacea. I will state it AGAIN:

This is about structure, not size of government, and this is about reality, not some dreams about a world that no longer exists. Thomas Jefferson's vision of America was an agrarian society where every mans occupation was husbandry. Is THAT what you are calling for? Talk about poppycock and immature thinking.

The founding fathers never envisioned a world with nuclear weapons or any of the technological advances over the last 200 years.

Your accusation 'You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers' is childish and immature. You really don't know what you are talking about or what the topic is.

It would be advisable for you to read Eisenhower's farewell address where he explains how the military/industrial complex came to be.

Your Utopian solution is naive and not thought out. If we castrate government, do you REALLY BELIEVE the military/industrial complex will evaporate? Do you REALLY believe the huge corporate special interests will no longer covet the natural resources of other countries? Your solution would open the flood gates to a full blown oligarchy. But you didn't THINK that far ahead, now did you? You live in a vacuum.

Lets see...you think we NEED a huge omnipresent government, which gave us the rogue elements we dislike, to keep out the rogue elements. Do you fail to see how foolish that is?

You also fail to learn from history. Wherever a large statist government has existed, rogue elements have existed. Conversely, a limited small central government likely does not have rogue elements. History proves me right and you wrong.

You think big government is a solution. I think big government is the problem.

Why do you persist in failing to learn from history? Do you think history is not applicable to this problem? Is this some kind of NEW problem humans have not faced in the past?

Recap:

JFK was murdered in a coup d'état a couple years later, lead by the US military/CIA. All because he would not go along with the bastards running the military-industrial complex who demanded war.

Hey gipper, you GOT your 'limited small central government' on November 22, 1963...

Definition of COUP D'ÉTAT
: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

 

[gipper]

You have not identified the CAUSE and the SOLUTION. You have stated an ideology as some panacea. I will state it AGAIN:

This is about structure, not size of government, and this is about reality, not some dreams about a world that no longer exists. Thomas Jefferson's vision of America was an agrarian society where every mans occupation was husbandry. Is THAT what you are calling for? Talk about poppycock and immature thinking.

The founding fathers never envisioned a world with nuclear weapons or any of the technological advances over the last 200 years.

Your accusation 'You seem to dream that a huge omnipresent centralized government with immense powers' is childish and immature. You really don't know what you are talking about or what the topic is.

It would be advisable for you to read Eisenhower's farewell address where he explains how the military/industrial complex came to be.

Your Utopian solution is naive and not thought out. If we castrate government, do you REALLY BELIEVE the military/industrial complex will evaporate? Do you REALLY believe the huge corporate special interests will no longer covet the natural resources of other countries? Your solution would open the flood gates to a full blown oligarchy. But you didn't THINK that far ahead, now did you? You live in a vacuum.

Lets see...you think we NEED a huge omnipresent government, which gave us the rogue elements we dislike, to keep out the rogue elements. Do you fail to see how foolish that is?

You also fail to learn from history. Wherever a large statist government has existed, rogue elements have existed. Conversely, a limited small central government likely does not have rogue elements. History proves me right and you wrong.

You think big government is a solution. I think big government is the problem.

Why do you persist in failing to learn from history? Do you think history is not applicable to this problem? Is this some kind of NEW problem humans have not faced in the past?

Recap:

JFK was murdered in a coup d'état a couple years later, lead by the US military/CIA. All because he would not go along with the bastards running the military-industrial complex who demanded war.

Hey gipper, you GOT your 'limited small central government' on November 22, 1963...

Definition of COUP D'ÉTAT
: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

Are you trying to claim we HAD limited government in 1963? If so, you have failed to comprehend all of my posts in this thread.

 

[Bfgrn]

Lets see...you think we NEED a huge omnipresent government, which gave us the rogue elements we dislike, to keep out the rogue elements. Do you fail to see how foolish that is?

You also fail to learn from history. Wherever a large statist government has existed, rogue elements have existed. Conversely, a limited small central government likely does not have rogue elements. History proves me right and you wrong.

You think big government is a solution. I think big government is the problem.

Why do you persist in failing to learn from history? Do you think history is not applicable to this problem? Is this some kind of NEW problem humans have not faced in the past?

Recap:

JFK was murdered in a coup d'état a couple years later, lead by the US military/CIA. All because he would not go along with the bastards running the military-industrial complex who demanded war.

Hey gipper, you GOT your 'limited small central government' on November 22, 1963...

Definition of COUP D'ÉTAT
: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

Are you trying to claim we HAD limited government in 1963? If so, you have failed to comprehend all of my posts in this thread.

WOW...you really are lost here...

YOU said: JFK was murdered in a coup d'état

A coup d'état is the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

1000 posts later and you still don't get it. I told you earlier when you went off the rails:

Americans should want the elected government to be the REAL government.

 

[gipper]

Recap:



Hey gipper, you GOT your 'limited small central government' on November 22, 1963...

Definition of COUP D'ÉTAT
: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

Are you trying to claim we HAD limited government in 1963? If so, you have failed to comprehend all of my posts in this thread.

WOW...you really are lost here...

YOU said: JFK was murdered in a coup d'état

A coup d'état is the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

1000 posts later and you still don't get it. I told you earlier when you went off the rails:

Americans should want the elected government to be the REAL government.

You make no sense...again. You lost our debate regarding the cause and solution for rogue elements in government and now this on JFK's assassination. Do you deny that JFK was murdered in a coup d'état?

I told you earlier that I AGREE WITH YOU that Americans should get the government they elect. Why do you persist with silly NON-arguments?

Americans don't get the government they elect....wait for it..........because the government is TOO BIG and TOO POWERFUL....let me explain further so that you might comprehend....TOO BIG AND TOO POWERFUL ALSO MEANS UNACCOUNTABLE.

PLEASE TELL ME YOU COMPREHEND.

 

[Bfgrn]

Are you trying to claim we HAD limited government in 1963? If so, you have failed to comprehend all of my posts in this thread.

WOW...you really are lost here...

YOU said: JFK was murdered in a coup d'état

A coup d'état is the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

1000 posts later and you still don't get it. I told you earlier when you went off the rails:

Americans should want the elected government to be the REAL government.

You make no sense...again. You lost our debate regarding the cause and solution for rogue elements in government and now this on JFK's assassination. Do you deny that JFK was murdered in a coup d'état?

I told you earlier that I AGREE WITH YOU that Americans should get the government they elect. Why do you persist with silly NON-arguments?

Americans don't get the government they elect....wait for it..........because the government is TOO BIG and TOO POWERFUL....let me explain further so that you might comprehend....TOO BIG AND TOO POWERFUL ALSO MEANS UNACCOUNTABLE.

PLEASE TELL ME YOU COMPREHEND.

Then you should be half happy...a coup d'état creates a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY small government, but it is not accountable to We, the People.

Your ideology is clouding your thinking. And your conclusions are what you 'feel' or fear, but size has little or no relevance to WHO runs the government, either the people we elect or a small handful of monied interests.

 

[MaryL]

than any citizen in WW2

Feeble attempts by the Axis against the US mainaland were comic.

When I was9 - the Cuban Missle crissles was nor so funny.

The missles in Cuba could have reached Seattle.

OK...But we lost 3000 innocent civilians on September 11, 2001.We need to rethink what is an acceptable here. Ok. My mother lived through the attack on Pearl Harbor. She told me that 9/11 was worse. What does that tell you? The times, they are a changin’.