I think we all agree

[Mac1958]

The hit on OBL was the right approach, not a stupid ground war that we could not win. We knew who did it, we could have hit them one by one and very publicly, it would have been effective and would have saved innocent lives on both sides.

Precisely.

And we got OBL with intelligence and a surgical strike, not as the result of a massive presence.

.

 

[Redfish]

If you get directly involved you risk getting stuck in a quagmire if you don't you risk the rise of something like the axis powers it's almost damned if you do damned if you don't.

Peace through stength works. Walk softly and carry a big stick works. The Japanese found out what a sleeping tiger can do. We are not the world's police force.

Just as I said there is a risk with either one you choose one and live with the consequences.

True, we need to look at all of the possible consequences before we put the lives and treasure of our country at risk.

 

[tinydancer]

I'll give myself up. I was thrilled when we all went into Afghanistan. I yes a conservative have been a womans right's activist in the ME for a long time and at war on the net with the Taliban since the 90's.

I thought we could rebuild. I thought we could change things. I believed.

Oh I have been so sadly mistaken. And my heart is broken that we lost so many good young men and women fighting such a losing battle.

All for a dream that in the end will never come true.

Bravo.

Thanks.

.

That dream may still come true; the majority of Afghanis do not support al Qaeda. We can keep our influence in quietly, and back those who are not extremists. Setting up a functional representative government in Iraq will be much more difficult. (Iraq is modernized, by Saddam with US support, yet knows nothing but dictators, since the beginning. Afghanistan was more rural, warlords AND individual clans. The Soviets backed out, setting the stage for Muslim radicals.)

I look at Afghanistan from two different sides. One straight out history. Cold and harsh. The other the beauty of the people who I have loved for many years. Coming up to twenty now when I first threw myself into the fray.

That's for a whole different conversation. How did I ever dream that I could undo tribal customs that would allow for the stoning of women or baccha bazi. I've done a lot of things in my life and failed at few but boy oh boy I blew this one.

And we as a group left and right actually thought we could change a culture in a moment in time.

Hence I am admitting I am an idiot and a fool.

someone grab this as their sig line

 

[Dot Com]

Peace through stength works. Walk softly and carry a big stick works. The Japanese found out what a sleeping tiger can do. We are not the world's police force.

Just as I said there is a risk with either one you choose one and live with the consequences.

True, we need to look at all of the possible consequences before we put the lives and treasure of our country at risk.

thats what the President said at West Point last week among other good points.

Transcript of President Obama’s Commencement Address at West Point

Here’s my bottom line: America must always lead on the world stage. If we don’t, no one else will. The military that you have joined is, and always will be, the backbone of that leadership. But U.S. military action cannot be the only, or even primary, component of our leadership in every instance. Just because we have the best hammer does not mean that every problem is a nail.

And because the costs associated with military action are so high, you should expect every civilian leader — and especially your commander in chief —to be clear about how that awesome power should be used. So let me spend the rest of my time describing my vision for how the United States of America, and our military, should lead in the years to come, for you will be part of that leadership.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

I think you are mistaken, especially as to the bolded portion. In reality, we do NOT "all agree."

 

[deltex1]

It's not how many wars we fight...it's how we fight them. We have kicked a lot of ass over the last 80 years, and still nobody fears us. Tell everyone how war with us will be...and then demonstrate for all to see.

 

[The Rabbi]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

I dont think we all agree on that.
We got involved in Afghanistan to counter the Russians. We retreated and allowed the Talibam to take over. The result was 9/11. There is no telling what will become a vital American interest. Pretending that it isn't a problem until the planes are crashing into your buildings is just stupid. At the same time not every conflict is our conflict. It takes some wisdom, not hard and fast rules, to know when intervention is appropriate and what is should be.

 

[tinydancer]

My heart really hurts on this. I've not a problem in my life on admitting I was wrong, but to admit abject defeat has been a bit of a life changing event for me. I was hating the Taliban when other people thought they were a "body wrap" and not Bhutto's mercenaries.

20 years. Nothing has changed. All our babies blood for naught. It hurts.

When the towers came down, I wanted SO BAD to just blow the SHIT out of SOMETHING. To turn the entire fucking Middle East into a fucking parking lot. But for some reason it all changed when I saw the size of the force going into Afghanistan. I knew somehow that it was wrong. Iraq was a different story, I was against that from the beginning.

You're definitely not alone - we were all so shocked and angry and fucking frustrated that we just wanted to DO SOMETHING. I just hope we've learned from our mistakes.

.

We are in the same boat on this. We all wanted to hit back. We were all angry and hurt. The hit on OBL was the right approach, not a stupid ground war that we could not win. We knew who did it, we could have hit them one by one and very publicly, it would have been effective and would have saved innocent lives on both sides.

But we are too civilized for covert hits, right? we prefer the flaming deaths of thousands to surgical strikes on the individuals responsible.

I think we have learned a lot in all these years. At least I hope we have.

 

[Dot Com]

When the towers came down, I wanted SO BAD to just blow the SHIT out of SOMETHING. To turn the entire fucking Middle East into a fucking parking lot. But for some reason it all changed when I saw the size of the force going into Afghanistan. I knew somehow that it was wrong. Iraq was a different story, I was against that from the beginning.

You're definitely not alone - we were all so shocked and angry and fucking frustrated that we just wanted to DO SOMETHING. I just hope we've learned from our mistakes.

.

We are in the same boat on this. We all wanted to hit back. We were all angry and hurt. The hit on OBL was the right approach, not a stupid ground war that we could not win. We knew who did it, we could have hit them one by one and very publicly, it would have been effective and would have saved innocent lives on both sides.

But we are too civilized for covert hits, right? we prefer the flaming deaths of thousands to surgical strikes on the individuals responsible.

I think we have learned a lot in all these years. At least I hope we have.

ummm..... the President (Obama) knew vietraq was a bad idea from the start.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99591469

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaida. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Bravo.

Thanks.

.

That dream may still come true; the majority of Afghanis do not support al Qaeda. We can keep our influence in quietly, and back those who are not extremists. Setting up a functional representative government in Iraq will be much more difficult. (Iraq is modernized, by Saddam with US support, yet knows nothing but dictators, since the beginning. Afghanistan was more rural, warlords AND individual clans. The Soviets backed out, setting the stage for Muslim radicals.)

I look at Afghanistan from two different sides. One straight out history. Cold and harsh. The other the beauty of the people who I have loved for many years. Coming up to twenty now when I first threw myself into the fray.

That's for a whole different conversation. How did I ever dream that I could undo tribal customs that would allow for the stoning of women or baccha bazi. I've done a lot of things in my life and failed at few but boy oh boy I blew this one.

And we as a group left and right actually thought we could change a culture in a moment in time.

Hence I am admitting I am an idiot and a fool.

someone grab this as their sig line

No, you are only a fool of you cannot learn from your mistake. You have learned and now you have the courage and character to admit to being wrong about something that you cared passionately about. That is something admirable in my opinion.

I am willing to bet that while you failed to change the culture you still made a difference to the lives of many Afghan women. That small difference is sometimes all it takes to ultimately change a culture. We might not live to see it but a seed has been planted by you and others. Where there is an idea there is hope and where there is hope there is the possibility of a better future.

 

[tinydancer]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

I dont think we all agree on that.
We got involved in Afghanistan to counter the Russians. We retreated and allowed the Talibam to take over. The result was 9/11. There is no telling what will become a vital American interest. Pretending that it isn't a problem until the planes are crashing into your buildings is just stupid. At the same time not every conflict is our conflict. It takes some wisdom, not hard and fast rules, to know when intervention is appropriate and what is should be.

But what could you have done over the Taliban and their involvement with AQ in Afghanistan?

Seriously. I look at this day in and day out and cannot come up with anything you could have done during the Clinton years.
Hells bells Hillary was Benazir's buddy remember? She was backing the Taliban's take over of Afghanistan.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

I dont think we all agree on that.
We got involved in Afghanistan to counter the Russians. We retreated and allowed the Talibam to take over. The result was 9/11. There is no telling what will become a vital American interest. Pretending that it isn't a problem until the planes are crashing into your buildings is just stupid. At the same time not every conflict is our conflict. It takes some wisdom, not hard and fast rules, to know when intervention is appropriate and what is should be.

But what could you have done over the Taliban and their involvement with AQ in Afghanistan?

Seriously. I look at this day in and day out and cannot come up with anything you could have done during the Clinton years.
Hells bells Hillary was Benazir's buddy remember? She was backing the Taliban's take over of Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was actually executed well in the beginning but then botched when the focus shifted to Iraq. The war in Afghanistan should have been concluded and all troops withdrawn before the needless war in Iraq. History tells us that Afghanistan is where empires go to die. We should have heeded that lesson by taking down ALQ and then getting out with the implicit threat that we would come right back again if they tried anything again.

 

[Dot Com]

rw backpedal thread? Too late for that. You people went all-in w/ Bu$h II/Cheney on vietraq

 

[Redfish]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

I think you are mistaken, especially as to the bolded portion. In reality, we do NOT "all agree."

So you are happy seeing our kids brought home missing arms and legs or in body bags? You think we should try to inject our since of values on the rest of the world and sacrifice our young to make that happen?

you are correct that we do not all agree, very correct !

 

[The Rabbi]

I dont think we all agree on that.
We got involved in Afghanistan to counter the Russians. We retreated and allowed the Talibam to take over. The result was 9/11. There is no telling what will become a vital American interest. Pretending that it isn't a problem until the planes are crashing into your buildings is just stupid. At the same time not every conflict is our conflict. It takes some wisdom, not hard and fast rules, to know when intervention is appropriate and what is should be.

But what could you have done over the Taliban and their involvement with AQ in Afghanistan?

Seriously. I look at this day in and day out and cannot come up with anything you could have done during the Clinton years.
Hells bells Hillary was Benazir's buddy remember? She was backing the Taliban's take over of Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was actually executed well in the beginning but then botched when the focus shifted to Iraq. The war in Afghanistan should have been concluded and all troops withdrawn before the needless war in Iraq. History tells us that Afghanistan is where empires go to die. We should have heeded that lesson by taking down ALQ and then getting out with the implicit threat that we would come right back again if they tried anything again.

That's why Obama fucked up when he changed focus to Afghanistan?
Bush's strategy was right both places. Large military force in Iraq to unseat Saddam and bring order. Small elite force to help the Northern Alliance unseat the Taliban.

 

[Redfish]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

I dont think we all agree on that.
We got involved in Afghanistan to counter the Russians. We retreated and allowed the Talibam to take over. The result was 9/11. There is no telling what will become a vital American interest. Pretending that it isn't a problem until the planes are crashing into your buildings is just stupid. At the same time not every conflict is our conflict. It takes some wisdom, not hard and fast rules, to know when intervention is appropriate and what is should be.

try to pay attention-------we are saying the exact same thing.

 

[The Rabbi]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

I think you are mistaken, especially as to the bolded portion. In reality, we do NOT "all agree."

So you are happy seeing our kids brought home missing arms and legs or in body bags? You think we should try to inject our since of values on the rest of the world and sacrifice our young to make that happen?

you are correct that we do not all agree, very correct !

Are you trying to channel RDean here?
Are you happy to see thousands dead in NYC, with people jumping out of skyscrapers in total desperation?

 

[The Rabbi]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

I dont think we all agree on that.
We got involved in Afghanistan to counter the Russians. We retreated and allowed the Talibam to take over. The result was 9/11. There is no telling what will become a vital American interest. Pretending that it isn't a problem until the planes are crashing into your buildings is just stupid. At the same time not every conflict is our conflict. It takes some wisdom, not hard and fast rules, to know when intervention is appropriate and what is should be.

try to pay attention-------we are saying the exact same thing.

No, we're not. You're making blanket statements about avoiding anything that doesnt directly threaten the US. I am pointing out it is hard to predict what events will end up directly threatening the US and you have to be selective about involvement. Things arent black and white, as much as you'd like.

 

[Redfish]

rw backpedal thread? Too late for that. You people went all-in w/ Bu$h II/Cheney on vietraq

If we were all in with Bush and Cheney, then you dem/libs were all in with Clinton, Kerry, Reid, Gore, and all the rest of the dems who authorized and funded that fiasco.

THEY WERE ALL WRONG ABOUT IT------EVERY FRICKEN ONE OF THEM. WAKE THE FUCK UP.

 

[tinydancer]

That dream may still come true; the majority of Afghanis do not support al Qaeda. We can keep our influence in quietly, and back those who are not extremists. Setting up a functional representative government in Iraq will be much more difficult. (Iraq is modernized, by Saddam with US support, yet knows nothing but dictators, since the beginning. Afghanistan was more rural, warlords AND individual clans. The Soviets backed out, setting the stage for Muslim radicals.)

I look at Afghanistan from two different sides. One straight out history. Cold and harsh. The other the beauty of the people who I have loved for many years. Coming up to twenty now when I first threw myself into the fray.

That's for a whole different conversation. How did I ever dream that I could undo tribal customs that would allow for the stoning of women or baccha bazi. I've done a lot of things in my life and failed at few but boy oh boy I blew this one.

And we as a group left and right actually thought we could change a culture in a moment in time.

Hence I am admitting I am an idiot and a fool.

someone grab this as their sig line

No, you are only a fool of you cannot learn from your mistake. You have learned and now you have the courage and character to admit to being wrong about something that you cared passionately about. That is something admirable in my opinion.

I am willing to bet that while you failed to change the culture you still made a difference to the lives of many Afghan women. That small difference is sometimes all it takes to ultimately change a culture. We might not live to see it but a seed has been planted by you and others. Where there is an idea there is hope and where there is hope there is the possibility of a better future.

Thank you for the kind words. Greatly appreciated. It hurts to say I failed. It hurts to say I couldn't get the results I wanted. I'm learning to say....but I tried. (I've always been a super winner so this is an owie) I really really thought we could change their lives there just by being "us" and showing them our ways of life.

This is not an overnighter. But I won't give up. They are many. And I think I can put in another 20.

I won't let them down. I can't.