I have a question

[The Irish Ram]

And His commands are as follows:
Love one another.
Love your Father.

I'm not Jewish nor under Mosiac Law. <(all 600+)
I follow Jesus.

You may not be Jewish but if you claim to follow Jesus who was Jewish and taught obedience to Mosaic law but you disregard the law (all 600 +) and teach others to disregard the law, you have either been deceived or you are a deceiver. You do not follow Jesus,

He replied to him, &#8220;Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?&#8221; Pointing to his disciples, he said, &#8220;Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.&#8221; Mathew 12:46-50

That is simply incorrect. Jesus, who was Jewish Rabbi, fulfilled the Law for Jews and replaced the condemnation of not being perfect according to the Law, with Grace for all.
Examples of some of the laws He reworked are; conduct in court, tithing with a generous heart or not at all, the amount of times we are to forgive as opposed to the Law's stipulation, and so on.

What He accomplished that no other man has was perfection. That is why we are offered His record to be judged on instead of our own. It is a gift of love from our Brother and our Dad.
Trying to establish your own righteousness takes the place of submitting to Christ's righteousness. You will submit one set of actions or the other at some point in your life to be scrutinized.

What Christ saved us from is the condemnation that comes with the Law. Usually death. We are no longer put to death if we stumble and break a law. We have unmerited favor. Forgiveness we don't deserve.

Man was never to be subject to the Law and was under God's loving kindness from the very beginning. The Jews felt they could keep the laws and wanted a shot at it. 3,000 dropped dead at the starting line. And our loving Father immediately gave them a form of temporary propitiation to keep them alive.

Christ finished the job by becoming our "passover lamb." He gave Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for our sin. Try getting there by obeying Jewish Law and you will not succeed. Your blood is just not pure enough. His was and is the only one that was.

What Laws did God establish for Adam and everyone that lived before Moses? How did they survive without all of the rules and regulations?

Strive to be like Christ. Love. If you fail, ask for forgiveness and then go do better tomorrow, for Christ's sake, not your own. It's the least we can do.
And smile, your Savior never stumbled. Not once. And He is the captain of your team.

 

[hobelim]

That is simply incorrect. Jesus, who was Jewish Rabbi, fulfilled the Law for Jews and replaced the condemnation of not being perfect according to the Law, with Grace for all.
Examples of that are; conduct in court, tithing with a generous heart or not at all, the amount of times we are to forgive as opposed to the Law's stipulation, and so on.

What He accomplished that no other man has was perfection. That is why we are offered His record to be judged on instead of our own. It is a gift of love from our Brother and our Dad.
Trying to establish your own righteousness takes the place of submitting to Christ's righteousness. You will submit one set of actions or the other at some point in your life to be scrutinized.

What Christ saved us from is the condemnation that comes with the Law. Usually death.

You have been told that Jesus fulfilled the law, and I agree. You have been told that Jesus removed the burden of the law, and I agree.


You have been told that to fulfill the law means that the Law is no longer in effect, but I am telling you that to fulfill the law is to do it.

You were also told that the burden of the law that Jesus removed was the law itself but I am telling you that the burden of the law that Jesus removed is the death consequent to disobedience, not the law itself, and Jesus removed this burden by teaching and demonstrating the only right way to interpret and apply the law that leads to the fulfillment of the promised eternal life for obedience.

That is how Jesus did away with sin, but unless you accept his teaching about how to understand the figurative nature and the hidden subjects of the law and unless you follow his example about how to follow the law in the light of his revelation you cannot have the life promised for obedience to the law in you.

This is what the dispute was about. The nature of sin itself. Was the concern of God about what you eat and what you wear or do those very same words used in the law have deeper implications that reveal the true nature and intent of God in giving the law as a light to the nations.

Obviously the Pharisees were devout and dedicated to the fulfillment of a literal interpretation of the law. Obviously Jesus was an unrepentant sinner in their eyes, saying 'we know this man is a sinner, he keeps company with prostitutes." and anyone over the age of 12 should know what that means. The claim that Jesus fulfilled that Law while openly defying a literal interpretation of the law leaves only one way to resolve that logical contradiction which is Jesus revealed another way to understand the words and subjects of the law that he claimed to have learned from God that he devoutly observed that has nothing whatever to do with what you eat or what you wear or who you have sex with, a sublime teaching understandable only to the pure of mind and encapsulated by his direct command to eat his flesh.

What Laws did God establish for Adam and everyone that lived before Moses? How did they survive without all of the rules and regulations? :

Before the light was given, the world was without shape and void; and darkness covered the face of the deep.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You have been told that to fulfill the law means that the Law is no longer in effect.

That is incorrect. In fact I said the opposite and apparently lost a friend. And pointed out several wonderful effects of complying with the Law. The benefits of tithing, the blessing attached to the Jewish commandment to honor parents, the perks of not spending your life in jail for murder.......

The issue isn't the law, but legalism and it's effects:

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Satan will be submitting a list of your transgressions. You can rely on your record, which must be perfect by the way, because God must remain 100% just, or you can let Jesus hand in your list of sins covered in a nontransparent thick, rich, red, pure blemish remover.

The rules God gave Moses were the root of Jewish law.
Those rules are the fruit of the new covenant we have under Christ. If you love your neighbor, will you murder your neighbor?

Love is the key, the result is obedience. And if you have fallen short, thank God, Jesus has you covered. He strength just happens to be what you are weakest at. And you are forgiven. Because you have a father that loves you.

 

[MonaGonna]

So why do you think that you're a sinner and that someone else (Jesus) will pay your tab for the sins?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Quote: Originally Posted by The Irish Ram View Post
What Laws did God establish for Adam and everyone that lived before Moses? How did they survive without all of the rules and regulations? :

Hob, you need to rethink your quote (Before the light was given, the world was without shape and void; and darkness covered the face of the deep.) because your quote isn't quite accurate or and has nothing to do with the absence of Law to Adam.

#1. God created the heaven and earth.
If earth had no shape and was void it wouldn't exist. We know the earth has shape, and creating takes the place of void. Stuff replaces void.

If you read the verse you quoted in the original Greek you would read,
#2 But the earth became confused and empty (void) and an unnatural darkness was upon the deep.
Simple dark matter without light would be a natural darkness.
Many Christians believe there is a gap of time between God's work in the first verse of Genesis and the third verse, on. The third being the reconstruction of the first, and would explain the time frame of earth's age and the appearance of modern man.

Regardless, it has nothing to do with the fact that God covered man with love, grace and unlimited forgiveness right up to the Exodus. And has returned to that method following the work Christ did on the cross.
You cannot work your way to Heaven, but you can live your best for Christ. He did it for you.......

 

[MonaGonna]

Quote: Originally Posted by The Irish Ram View Post
What Laws did God establish for Adam and everyone that lived before Moses? How did they survive without all of the rules and regulations? :

Hob, you need to rethink your quote (Before the light was given, the world was without shape and void; and darkness covered the face of the deep.) because your quote isn't quite accurate or and has nothing to do with the absence of Law to Adam.

#1. God created the heaven and earth.
If earth had no shape and was void it wouldn't exist. We know the earth has shape, and creating takes the place of void. Stuff replaces void.

If you read the verse you quoted in the original Greek you would read,
#2 But the earth became confused and empty (void) and an unnatural darkness was upon the deep.
Simple dark matter without light would be a natural darkness.
Many Christians believe there is a gap of time between God's work in the first verse of Genesis and the third verse, on. The third being the reconstruction of the first, and would explain the time frame of earth's age and the appearance of modern man.

Regardless, it has nothing to do with the fact that God covered man with love, grace and unlimited forgiveness right up to the Exodus. And has returned to that method following the work Christ did on the cross.
You cannot work your way to Heaven, but you can live your best for Christ. He did it for you.......

The work Jesus did on the cross? I didn't know that he worked on it, just carried it and died on it.

 

[The Irish Ram]

So why do you think that you're a sinner and that someone else (Jesus) will pay your tab for the sins?

Not will Mona, has. The reason is because Our Father loves us enough not to leave our eternal fate in anything less than qualified hands.
Sin is a blood issue stemming from knowledge Eve obtained by eating from the tree of knowledge of evil. < God's only rule or will was to leave that tree alone. God's will was for us to live our lifetime with absolutely no knowledge of, or temptation to commit evil, Sin is passed from parent to child.
Not that I am blaming Eve. I still would have the affliction. I've made plenty of errors all on my own.

And to whoever said the 2 thieves on the cross were saved, they weren't. Only one was. One had a repentant heart. The other was critical of Christ. Makes all the difference in establishing our next residence.

 

[hobelim]

You have been told that to fulfill the law means that the Law is no longer in effect.

That is incorrect. In fact I said the opposite and apparently lost a friend. And pointed out several wonderful effects of complying with the Law. The benefits of tithing, the blessing attached to the Jewish commandment to honor parents, the perks of not spending your life in jail for murder.......

The issue isn't the law, but legalism and it's effects:.

Nonsense. The task of the Messiah as specified in Deuteronomy 18:18 is to bear witness to what he had seen and heard and learned from God and to convey all of Gods commands.

It had everything to do with the law and how to correctly understand the figurative nature of the words and hidden subjects that are not directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used.

Legalism and its effects are directly related to how the law is interpreted and applied.


For instance when Jesus said that "Satan was a murderer from the beginning", murderer on the lips of Jesus did not have the legalistic meaning that people associate with murder today. Satan deceived Adam and Eve to defy the command of God which resulted in their deaths, not physical death because they continued to live physical lives, but separation from God who is the source and sustainer of all life. So the death they experience in the day they ate of the fruit was expulsion from Eden, separation from God, and the consequent death of intelligence and awareness, making the peace of comprehension and the sanctuary and peace of knowing God impossible.

The sweat of their brow, thinking, much like anyone who worships a trinity, incapable of producing any edible fruit.

Satan will be submitting a list of your transgressions. You can rely on your record, which must be perfect by the way, because God must remain 100% just, or you can let Jesus hand in your list of sins covered in a nontransparent thick, rich, red, pure blemish remover.

The rules God gave Moses were the root of Jewish law.
Those rules are the fruit of the new covenant we have under Christ. If you love your neighbor, will you murder your neighbor?

Love is the key, the result is obedience. And if you have fallen short, thank God, Jesus has you covered. He strength just happens to be what you are weakest at. And you are forgiven. Because you have a father that loves you.

If you loved God and loved your neighbor would you be teaching them to worship a false roman triune god???

If scripture is true then you are guilty of murder as Jesus understood murder.


And how ever true it may be that God loves you, even God can't stop you from desecrating the teachings of Christ and perjuring yourself in his name, neither will he spare you from the consequences of your deliberate choice unless you sell off all of the superstitious ignorant bullshit you try to pass off as the gospel of Jesus Christ, repent, come out of your own serpent infested grave, stand on your own two feet and learn to walk like a creature worthy of life.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

That is simply incorrect. Jesus, who was Jewish Rabbi, fulfilled the Law for Jews and replaced the condemnation of not being perfect according to the Law, with Grace for all.
Examples of that are; conduct in court, tithing with a generous heart or not at all, the amount of times we are to forgive as opposed to the Law's stipulation, and so on.

What He accomplished that no other man has was perfection. That is why we are offered His record to be judged on instead of our own. It is a gift of love from our Brother and our Dad.
Trying to establish your own righteousness takes the place of submitting to Christ's righteousness. You will submit one set of actions or the other at some point in your life to be scrutinized.

What Christ saved us from is the condemnation that comes with the Law. Usually death.

You have been told that Jesus fulfilled the law, and I agree. You have been told that Jesus removed the burden of the law, and I agree.


You have been told that to fulfill the law means that the Law is no longer in effect, but I am telling you that to fulfill the law is to do it.

You were also told that the burden of the law that Jesus removed was the law itself but I am telling you that the burden of the law that Jesus removed is the death consequent to disobedience, not the law itself, and Jesus removed this burden by teaching and demonstrating the only right way to interpret and apply the law that leads to the fulfillment of the promised eternal life for obedience.

That is how Jesus did away with sin, but unless you accept his teaching about how to understand the figurative nature and the hidden subjects of the law and unless you follow his example about how to follow the law in the light of his revelation you cannot have the life promised for obedience to the law in you.

This is what the dispute was about. The nature of sin itself. Was the concern of God about what you eat and what you wear or do those very same words used in the law have deeper implications that reveal the true nature and intent of God in giving the law as a light to the nations.

Obviously the Pharisees were devout and dedicated to the fulfillment of a literal interpretation of the law. Obviously Jesus was an unrepentant sinner in their eyes, saying 'we know this man is a sinner, he keeps company with prostitutes." and anyone over the age of 12 should know what that means. The claim that Jesus fulfilled that Law while openly defying a literal interpretation of the law leaves only one way to resolve that logical contradiction which is Jesus revealed another way to understand the words and subjects of the law that he claimed to have learned from God that he devoutly observed that has nothing whatever to do with what you eat or what you wear or who you have sex with, a sublime teaching understandable only to the pure of mind and encapsulated by his direct command to eat his flesh.

What Laws did God establish for Adam and everyone that lived before Moses? How did they survive without all of the rules and regulations? :

Before the light was given, the world was without shape and void; and darkness covered the face of the deep.

Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees you would not enter into the kingdom of heaven, Hobelim. Jesus came to fulfill the law and in him the law is fulfilled. Those who belong to Jesus Christ have crucified the flesh with its lusts. Those who have not will be told - Depart from me -ye workers of iniquity - I never knew you. The road is narrow. Don't get confused by the wide path folks.

Concerning salvation, Hobelim:

This salvation which was given the believer as a gift - it is free - it was not earned as Christ alone paid the price for our redemption at the Cross and it did cost him everything.

For those who believe upon him and receive him as Lord? It shall cost them everything as well because if the believer is hanging onto his life here? He will lose it over there. ( hell will be his reward ) If he is willing to lose it here? He shall have everlasting life over there. ( heaven ) Without holiness no one will see the Lord. The Apostle did not warn us, Do not let any man steal your crown, because he thought it not possible. On the contrary, he knew it was possible as he knew as soon as he departed the false teachers would be on their way in to devour the sheep.

Consider this, Hobelim. The King has given you a valuable gift. A sack full of Gold that is light enough to carry unless you take your eyes off of him. You begin your journey and this movie theatre with all your old friends outside invites you for only one gold coin. You go in and watch the filth, the cursing of Gods name, the fornication which is depicted as a "love story".. then leave and continue on your way . . . you say to yourself, oh my poor friends do not believe in Jesus as I do - thank God I am going to heaven and I surely wish they were but they won't listen to me ( because you do the same things they do and they see you as a hypocrite although they are too polite to tell you to your face )

You continue on and your family calls to come to Thanksgiving Dinner - here goes a few more gold coins because the Holy Spirit told you to go feed the poor at the local mission but instead you desire the company of your blood relatives...........everyone will be there - they are getting drunk, partying, having a big time but you only had 2 glasses of wine and listened in on their filthy jokes, it isn't as if you joined them....... you chipped in for dinner with a few more gold coins and now after saturating yourself in godless chatter and filthy talk - you leave and resume your journey...

now you are home busy working on your real gods - the house which you are pouring yet more money into and the bmw in the drive while telling your children to store up their treasures in heaven and when the phone rings you tell your kids - Don't tell them I am here - I'm not here! Yet there you are standing right in front of your son and daughter! Not only are you a liar but you are now asking your son or daughter to become one as well....

later that evening you turn on the television to watch an action movie with the evil villain on the run from the lesser evil villain.... while you are screaming kill him! Kill him now! Meanwhile your children wonder, where is the love of God in my parents when it comes to this sort of thing? Where is this blood thirsty behavior coming from?

Your neighbor is a gossip but she makes the best pies in town and is the president of the Chamber of Commerce and she is always making you "look good" & telling others whatever you feed her so the price for that one is a few more gold coins...........

your children are on facebook doing the same thing with their friends now.....

Garbage in? Garbage out.

A neighbor down the road cannot pay their electric bill and you tell your kids, if they don't work? They won't eat! The bible says so! Where is the love of God in you for that person? Their children feel shamed - one of them falls into depression and hangs herself - because you told your kids to stay away from those "lazy people".. they deserve their problems... they should be christians like you!

Then it's Sunday! Time to worship the Lord! You walk into the church and the first song is, "I SURRENDER ALL"....... You sing with all your heart as if Jesus Christ is everything to you .......forgetting that all week long you've not surrendered a thing to him. It is all lip service and nothing more.

At the end of your journey as you dragged your bag of gold to the Kings Banquet - you look and there is a hole in the bottom of the bag. The bag you thought was light because you had kept your eyes on Jesus was actually emptied because you didn't keep your eyes on Jesus and now he asks, Where is your wedding garment, friend? ( Matt 22)

You are speechless when God asks, What did you do with my Son while you were upon the earth? What did you do with the talents I gave you? For the one who leaves this earth living in unrepented sin? There is no heaven. Only hell. That is the truth.

You see, Hobelim, if it sounds too good to be true? IT PROBABLY IS!

Now you are a Jew, Hobelim, but here is the truth. You still must accept Christ as your Messiah and realize that the standard is not the wide road gospel message but rather the narrow road message which Jesus spoke of.

Interesting when the multitudes hear it many of them turned back and followed him no more. Yes, we are coming to that impasse here shortly. In the meantime, I will tell you, Hobelim, that you do not keep the law. You cannot for what I can see you cannot even manage to control your own tongue. Much less your temper. It is revealing the truth about you and your only hope of salvation is to Call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. You cannot deliver yourself of satan. Satan cannot cast out Satan. You must be born again and then you shall be delivered.

It is written:

A scoundrel and a villian, who goes about with a corrupt mouth, who winks with his eye, signals with his feet, and motions with his fingers, who plots evil with deceit in his heart - he always stirs up dissension, therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant, he will be suddenly destroyed without remedy. - Proverbs 12- 15

Put away perversity from your mouth, keep corrupt talk far from your lips. - Proverbs 4:24

Arrogant lips are unsuited for a fool, how much worse lying lips to a ruler! Proverbs 17:7

An evil man is bent only on rebellion, a merciless official will be sent against him.
- Proverbs 17: 11

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

So why do you think that you're a sinner and that someone else (Jesus) will pay your tab for the sins?

He won't, Mona. The truth is found in Hebrews 10:26 But first listen to what is written earlier:

It is written:

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds. - Hebrews 10:16

This clearly shows us that when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ he not only forgives us of the sins we committed but that he is now going to put his law in our hearts and write them on our minds so that we will not sin against him any longer! ( which is why we no longer have any excuse for continuing to deliberately sin - we cannot claim "but...but.. I didn't know"... ) How wonderful our God is! Now watch the next verses!

It is written:

then he adds:

Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more. ( the past sins have been erased )

And where these have been forgiven there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Hebrews 10: 17, 18

Now comes the call to persevere, Mona! Watch this!

Hebrews 10: 26 It is written:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire which will consume the enemies of God. - Hebrews 10:26

If you keep on deliberately sinning after coming to the knowledge of the truth, Mona? God says you are his enemy. If you are deliberately sinning and you die in that unrepented state of sin it does not matter if you said the sinners prayer at the altar asking Jesus into your heart. You are "still" going to be in hell.

The word of God is true. Believe it and do not listen to those who turn God's grace into a license to sin. They are liars and preaching a wide is the road gospel that seems right but will lead to hell. Jesus said so.

It is written:

You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For in just a very little while,

He who is coming will come and will not delay,
But my righteous one will live by faith,
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him.

But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are being saved. - Hebrews 10: 37, 38

What is he saying? He is saying if you shrink back? You will be destroyed. If you continue on living holy unto the Lord? You shall be saved. We must persevere in doing the will of God so that we will receive what he has promised us. ( our salvation ) Why? Because if we do not persevere and continue in doing the will of God will not receive what he has promised us.

Instead we can expect the outcome of Hebrews 10:26. Do not listen to false teachers, Mona.

Listen to the Word of God for it is written:

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy, without holiness no one will see the Lord. - Hebrews 12: 14

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Mona, I do pray that God opens the eyes of people who believe they cannot lose their salvation by deliberately continuing to sin. I have often found that christians who believe this lie have been deceived by listening to false teachings. This is why it is best to read the bible and study it well. Know what the word of God says and do not listen to anyone who does not teach the truth. The path to heaven is not wide. The path to heaven is narrow. Jesus said so.

Chuck and Irish Ram, you are preaching is a wide road gospel. According to you, sinners can just say the sinners prayer, keep on sinning and then they can go to heaven instead of hell. This is not true. I pray God reveals the truth to both of you because truly you are both in error. - Jeri

 

[The Irish Ram]

He will and did Mona. Don't add or take away from it, just believe it.

Romans 5: 13-19 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone&#8217;s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God&#8217;s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man&#8217;s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God&#8217;s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Understanding that ^ results in that sweet Jesus peace:

Romans 5: 5-11 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perservance character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God&#8217;s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God&#8217;s wrath through Him! For if, while we were God&#8217;s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!
Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Our righteousness, our work isn't even mentioned. How could something so important be so ignored? Because it is not relevant to the situation.

What I am saying is that those who have been saved by the cross, are saved by the cross. Good works are the result of what Christ did for us and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is the least we can do, to strive to be good for His sake. A new man in Christ wants to good deeds. But there will be people saved, in Heaven, their spot procured by the blood of Christ with 0 good works.
We want hear, "well done good and faithful servant". But works have nothing to do with salvation. It is a gift, not a chore.

Nowhere did I say to whip out the old sinners prayer do your thing. I said, "God knows a man's heart". We can say anything, but you can't fool God. He sees what you really think and how you really feel. Say the sinners prayer if you mean it or not at all. Otherwise you will be taking God's name in vain, a fruitless effort with no substance or worth.

Speaking of hearts vs works:
THIEF ON THE CROSS. Saved by his righteousness or Christ's?
Good works are for reward and status once you get there. You get there by being covered in the blood of Christ. Period.

Galatians 2:16-21
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

^ Don't....... add....... anything.

 

[Chuckt]

Mona, I do pray that God opens the eyes of people who believe they cannot lose their salvation by deliberately continuing to sin. I have often found that christians who believe this lie have been deceived by listening to false teachings. This is why it is best to read the bible and study it well. Know what the word of God says and do not listen to anyone who does not teach the truth. The path to heaven is not wide. The path to heaven is narrow. Jesus said so.

Chuck and Irish Ram, you are preaching is a wide road gospel. According to you, sinners can just say the sinners prayer, keep on sinning and then they can go to heaven instead of hell. This is not true. I pray God reveals the truth to both of you because truly you are both in error. - Jeri

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, ***hath*** everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

It doesn't say, "might have" or "could have" but "hath" everlasting life.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I interpret the hard verses by the clear verses. These are clear verses. God so loved the world that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. I'm a whosoever.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

[hobelim]

Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees you would not enter into the kingdom of heaven, Hobelim. .

Exactly. At least the Pharisees were intelligent and devoted enough to God to dedicate their lives to the application of a literal interpretation of Mosaic Law to the point of obsession.

What Jesus meant was that there was another effort required to understand the figurative language and hidden subjects of the law that reveals the wisdom of God and intent of God in giving the Law before it was even possible to receive the promised eternal life and acceptance into heaven, the realm of higher intelligences where God resides, the reward of the righteous.


Unlike the Pharisees you don't even try to adhere to the will of God revealed through his commands and you don't even follow the few laws that you do claim to recognize which is to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself.

If you did you would not worship a false coequal triune mangod or teach others to do the same with the specious promise of eternal life even though scripture clearly teaches that such abhorrent behavior will result in death and the condemnation of hell.

Concerning salvation, Hobelim:

This salvation which was given the believer as a gift - it is free - it was not earned as Christ alone paid the price for our redemption at the Cross and it did cost him everything.

The la la fantasy world that you have descended into is not salvation, neither is it the sanctuary of God where Jesus was leading people to by teaching the only right way to understand and conform to the divine commands that results in eternal life promised for compliance for all who accept his teaching and do it...

As I have said, you died in the very day that you first got down on your knees before an imaginary coequal triune god, even if it was decades ago. Ever since then you have not enjoyed salvation but the promised condemnation for such sin and have since descended into the netherworld, the realm of the dead, where you remain tormented by the confusion of beliefs in things that never happened, perverse interpretations of what is actually taking place and irrational expectations for things that shall never occur.

If you have ears to hear, then hear.

 

[Chuckt]

Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees you would not enter into the kingdom of heaven, Hobelim. Jesus came to fulfill the law and in him the law is fulfilled. Those who belong to Jesus Christ have crucified the flesh with its lusts. Those who have not will be told - Depart from me -ye workers of iniquity - I never knew you. The road is narrow. Don't get confused by the wide path folks.

But that is the point. No one was more righteous than the scribes and the Pharisees.
Unless you have Jesus' righteousness taken out of God's account and put into your account by faith, your righteousness will not exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[The Irish Ram]

Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees you would not enter into the kingdom of heaven, Hobelim. Jesus came to fulfill the law and in him the law is fulfilled. Those who belong to Jesus Christ have crucified the flesh with its lusts. Those who have not will be told - Depart from me -ye workers of iniquity - I never knew you. The road is narrow. Don't get confused by the wide path folks.

But that is the point. No one was more righteous than the scribes and the Pharisees.
Unless you have Jesus' righteousness taken out of God's account and put into your account by faith, your righteousness will not exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Chuck, that is excellent. The Pharisees were nothing if not slaves to the law. But grace, love and compassion was not in them, and that is what Christ had a problem with.

Christ taught that love fulfilled the law. He fulfilled the law. Because He loved us.
This picture of a God that wants to punish and hate is the opposite of what we have. We have a Father that wants you with Him at all costs. He loved that thief more than He hated that thief's life.
I wouldn't suggest waiting till the last minute like he did, because we never know which minute is about to be our last, but Christ is worth getting to know. Sooner better than later, He has so much to offer.
And we have a Father that want's to honor us, and sing over each of us with joy. And He misses us when we don't call.