how quickly do proteins evolve ?

[CrusaderFrank]

That part is easy.

It's called self organizing systems.

You can Google it, there's an extensive literature.

Randomness created self organizing systems? Why?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

That part is easy.

It's called self organizing systems.

You can Google it, there's an extensive literature.

You might as well call it magic, just giving a fancy technical name doesn't make it more feasible.

See: Levinthal's paradox

 

[scruffy]

Randomness created self organizing systems? Why?

Why?

I don't know.

That's what randomness does.

It's one of the amazing properties of the universe.

Random elements organize themselves into complex and useful structures.

 

[scruffy]

You might as well call it magic, just giving a fancy technical name doesn't make it more feasible.

See: Levinthal's paradox

It's not magic.

It obeys the natural laws of physics.

Check out the (Edward) Lorenz attractor, which has to do with weather systems.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Why?

I don't know.

That's what randomness does.

It's one of the amazing properties of the universe.

Random elements organize themselves into complex and useful structures.

If you get a predictable outcome the how can that be described as random?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Why?

I don't know.

That's what randomness does.

It's one of the amazing properties of the universe.

Random elements organize themselves into complex and useful structures.

Tell me then what does "organize" mean to you?

 

[scruffy]

If you get a predictable outcome the how can that be described as random?

It's not predictable. It's random. You get structure though. You have to study chaos theory for a while to understand it. It has to do with strange attractors and fractional Hilbert spaces.

An example is the Lorenz attractor which tells us how hurricanes and tornados ("structure") form from random wind patterns.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

It's not predictable. It's random. You get structure though. You have to study chaos theory for a while to understand it. It has to do with strange attractors and fractional Hilbert spaces.

An example is the Lorenz attractor which tells us how hurricanes and tornados ("structure") form from random wind patterns.

But chaos isn't random, its deterministic.

 

[scruffy]

But chaos isn't random, its deterministic.

Weather is deterministic?

Really?

 

[scruffy]

So it looks like I've stumped the experts.

No one knows how proteins can evolve faster than DNA.

The incidence of point mutations in DNA is estimated to be between 10^-7 and 10^-8. So in a human lifetime you might get between 10 and 100 mutations in the germ cells.

So how is it that proteins can evolve in "days"?

It should tell you something obvious.

Because for example, our immune systems can respond to infections in minutes to hours, and remember the response for an entire lifetime.

 

[ding]

Weather is deterministic?

Really?

Yes, weather events are deterministic. Weather forecasts are probabilistic. The actual events themselves occurred for logical reasons. That makes weather deterministic. That you don't know that tells me you are a fraud. But I already knew that when you tried to tell me inanimate objects are alive and can evolve in the biological sense.

 

[ding]

So it looks like I've stumped the experts.

Your religious belief that everything is alive certainly does stump the experts. Yes.

 

[ding]

How quickly do proteins evolve?

Where do proteins come from?

 

[scruffy]

Yes, weather events are deterministic. Weather forecasts are probabilistic. The actual events themselves occurred for logical reasons. That makes weather deterministic. That you don't know that tells me you are a fraud. But I already knew that when you tried to tell me inanimate objects are alive and can evolve in the biological sense.

You're confused.

Maybe you should take a break.

 

[scruffy]

Your religious belief that everything is alive certainly does stump the experts. Yes.

Your trolling is noted and dismissed.

You still can't answer my question.

That's noted too.

You seem to know a lot about pop science and very little about the real thing.

 

[scruffy]

Yes, weather events are deterministic. Weather forecasts are probabilistic.

If weather was deterministic we could predict it with great accuracy.

The actual events themselves occurred for logical reasons.

Logical does not equate with deterministic.

That makes weather deterministic.

No, it doesn't.

Don't you have a dictionary?

That you don't know that tells me you are a fraud.

lol

But I still know more about science than you do.

You can't even answer my simple questions.

But I already knew that when you tried to tell me inanimate objects are alive and can evolve in the biological sense.

I never said inanimate objects evolve.

I never said anything about inanimate objects.

I don't believe in inanimation.

If the universe was inanimate it wouldn't bbe moving around and changing so much.

 

[scruffy]

Where do proteins come from?

Try to stay on topic.

Here, I'll give you a clue.

How to you change genetic expression without altering the DNA sequence?

 

[scruffy]

But chaos isn't random, its deterministic.

You need to study those strange attractors.

After six months or so they'll start making more sense.

There's nothing deterministic about chaos. That's why it's called chaos.

By the way, Google is feeding you a load of crap.

Edward Lorenz didn't invent chaos theory. It was around long before he was even born.

A big part of chaos theory has to do with singularities, topological and otherwise. Many chaotic attractors have singularities. They also have instabilities that are not singular, such as saddle points and cusps.

You'll need to read for a while before you can appreciate the finer points of chaos.

But let's get back to your idea of determinism. A random walk is by definition random, would you agree? And yet we can predict quite accurately the radius of Brownian motion over time.

And, the Gaussian distribution is known with great accuracy, even though everything that creates it is quite random.

Predictability does not equate with determinism. We can predict and characterize lots of random behavior. Qubits being a great example.

 

[scruffy]

you may want to convey that to the evolutionists,,

as shown in the link I provided they have a different opinion than you,,

Lots of people have different opinions than me.

That's okay. As long as they're not being fraudulent I have no issue with it.

I'm very good at providing counterexamples though.

When it comes to fossils, I don't claim to know anything. But I do know a bit about lizard biology, because I used to study lizard brains. They're generally pretty stupid creatures but they can move very, very fast. They're lazy, but when they get hungry they can outrun a fly. A lizard tongue can snatch a fly in mid air. That's pretty impressive, most humans can't even do that.

 

[scruffy]

If you get a predictable outcome the how can that be described as random?

I can predict very exactly the probability of getting snake eyes when rolling the dice. Does that mean the outcome isn't random?