How many times has humanity been wiped down to near extinction?

[Vastator]

Handbags and polygonal architecture

The knobs are hard to explain — and also found all over the world

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Snark does not explain why these are found all over the world and carried by figures thought to be Deities

If GT was the first (so far) chronologically, how was the concept transported to other parts of the world?

One the one hand we’re told that there nothing special about GT, but - somehow - these “handbags” make their way all over the globe

No one knows what these symbolize

But their existence should not be discounted

 

[CrusaderFrank]

It certainly speaks to cooperation. But the cradle of civilization? Nope. It was pretty small. About a dozen acres. Where as the Mesopotamian cities were measured in square miles.

Firmly placing the Tigrus and Ephrates region as the cradle of civilization rather than Gobekli Tepi...the latter of which had about 20 buildings.




How is that less plausible than aliens or 'hyper diffusion', or whatever Graham Hancock is offering on Netflix?

And again, you never did address the gaping, bleeding hole in hyperdiffusion theory. The farther you go back on these archeological sites, the more crude and less sophisticated the stonework gets.

If the past is the source of 'hyperdiffuse' knowledge, why does the stone work get more primitive the closer you get to the 'knowledge', but MORE advanced the farther away you get?

That's the pattern of people that are learning and refining their skills over time.


And again, its not even thought to be a permanent settlement, but some seasonal lodge or temple complex. There's no pottery, no metal working, no real written language, no evidence of large scale agriculture, no real commerce, and about 20 buildings.

Where as the 'major civilizations' had tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of citizens, dedicated armies, massive cities (the walled portions of Assur alone were over 300 acres), complex written language, far ranging commerce networks, culture, and agriculture on a massive scale.

An actual civilization rather than a moderate size neolithic village, hunting lodge or temple complex only 20 buildings in size.

I never said GT was a “major civilization” Given the conventional narrative of human history, it’s a civilization that simply should not exist.

It’s a civilization that took the time to memorialize itself in 20 ton stoneworks that upended our timeline.

The shame and tragedy is that it was relatively immediately reburied before archaeologists and professional debunkers had chance to dig it up

I don’t agree with the assessment that the stonecutters get more primitive the further back we go. This isn’t true in Peru, Egypt, Lebanon or Central America

The most obvious one is Peru where the perfectly fitted megaliths are topped by cruder stonework

 

[Vastator]

They must have had a lot of free time just to build the site in the first place, that speaks too organization.

Their carvings, though crude are incredibly profound! The most amazing one features the “handbag of the Gods” another very strange and consistent feature found the world over.

The deboonkers laughable “explanation” is that these are water buckets.

View attachment 965236
This is from Gobekli Tepi, again 11,000 years old, older than any ”major” civilization: Sumerians, Assyrians, Olmecs, Egyptians by many thousands of years. And they feature not 1 but three of these “handbags” that are found all over the world, always carried by a Diety

View attachment 965238
View attachment 965240
View attachment 965243

Buckets, and baskets have been independently developed throughout the world. And if one looks closely at each example you've provided, one can see that they are quit different from one another. Especially the Gobekli Tepi example. It certainly looks to be a pitcher, or bucket. The left side transitions directly into the handle, while the right side protrudes past the handle, which could better facilitate pouring.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Buckets, and baskets have been independently developed throughout the world. And if one looks closely at each example you've provided, one can see that they are quit different from one another. Especially the Gobekli Tepi example. It certainly looks to be a pitcher, or bucket. The let side transitions directly into the handle, while the right side protrudes past the handle, which could better facilitate pouring.

Well, who knows what else we might have found at GT, right?

Better to immediately bury it, in the name of science?

Yeah they're probably just water buckets. Makes sense that a rounding error of a civilization that existed 6,000 prior to the supposed start of civilization was carving these onto 20 ton stones

"Look! We discovered the water bucket! Call before midnight to get yours. Buy one, get 2 for half price. Operators are standing by”

 

[Vastator]

Well, who knows what else we might have found at GT, right?

Better to immediately bury it, in the name of science?

Yeah they're probably just water buckets. Makes sense that a rounding error of a civilization that existed 6,000 prior to the supposed start of civilization was carving these onto 20 ton stones

"Look! We discovered the water bucket! Call before midnight to get yours. Buy one, get 2 for half price. Operators are standing by”

Who buried it "in the name of science"? As far as I know the site is still being excavated...

 

[Skylar]

I never said GT was a “major civilization” Given the conventional narrative of human history, it’s a civilization that simply should not exist.

You said this: "You know Gobekli Tepi completely upends the fictional narrative that human civilization started in the Tigris Euphrates 5,000 years ago, right?"

And no, it doesn't.

Gobekli Tepi was at best, a moderately sized neolithic village. More likely some kind of seasonal hunting lodge or temple complex consisting of about 20 buildings on about a dozen acres.

Impressive, for sure. But there was no complex writing, no evidence of long distance commerce, no pottery, no metal working, no signs of large scale agriculture, with habitation appearing to be seasonal. They used stone tools. It looks like a place that stone tool weilding hunter gatherers would meet every year. And then leave.

Compare that the civilizations of the Tigris-Ephrates and you see massive cities, measured in square miles, permanent habitation by tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands over hundreds, even thousands of years, complex writing systems, expansive trade networks, professional militarizes, science, large scale agriculture, empires and kings.

Civilization clearly started there. Gobekli Tepi was neolithic, primitive, regional, and comparatively small.

It’s a civilization that took the time to memorialize itself in 20 ton stoneworks that upended our timeline.

It really doesn't. Calling 20 buildings constructed by hunter gatherer stone weilders a 'civilization' doesn't make Gobekli Tepi the cradle of civilization.

They had none of the hallmarks of actual civilization. No writing, no metal working, no large scale agriculture, not even definite permanent residents. GT looks like a seasonal hunting lodge or some kind of temple that local hunter gatherers would visit and then leave.

The shame and tragedy is that it was relatively immediately reburied before archaeologists and professional debunkers had chance to dig it up

I don’t agree with the assessment that the stonecutters get more primitive the further back we go. This isn’t true in Peru, Egypt, Lebanon or Central America

The archeological record is pretty clear on this. The farther you go back in these civilizations, the cruder the stone work gets. The Egyptians didn't start with pyramids. They started with caves. Then upgraded to clay buildings. Then upgraded to large scale clay structures. Then upgraded to clay pyramids (a disaster). Then small stone proto-pyramids. Then small true pyramids. And finally, the Great Pyramid, made almost entirely of limestone.

The progression was from LESS sophistication to GREATER sophistication as the civilization refined its skills over centuries. Explicitly contrary to hyper diffusion which puts the greatest sophistication and knowledge in the PAST.

The most obvious one is Peru where the perfectly fitted megaliths are topped by cruder stonework

Peru is not your friend here. The Inca were the pinnacle of stoneworkers in the pre-columbian era. Machu Picchu was built in 1450. There are many, many pre-Incan civilizations that predate them by thousand of years. And their stonework is FAR less sophisticated than what the Inca's were able to achieve by the 15th century.

Caral-Supe for example predates the Incans by thousands of years. And their stone work is FAR less sophisticated than the Incan.

They used crude mortar with large gaps in their stone work. Which one would expect in the deep past when the skills and tools were less precise.

But it an explicit contradict of the absurd hyper diffusion theory, as Caral-Supe was made far closer to the 'deep knowledge' of the aliens or lost civlization than Machu Picchu was. Yet the late stonework of the Inca, thousands of years later overawes and outclasses anything from Caral-Supe.

Hyper-Diffusion is just a terrible explanation.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You said this: "You know Gobekli Tepi completely upends the fictional narrative that human civilization started in the Tigris Euphrates 5,000 years ago, right?"

And no, it doesn't.

Gobekli Tepi was at best, a moderately sized neolithic village. More likely some kind of seasonal hunting lodge or temple complex consisting of about 20 buildings on about a dozen acres.

Impressive, for sure. But there was no complex writing, no evidence of long distance commerce, no pottery, no metal working, no signs of large scale agriculture, with habitation appearing to be seasonal. They used stone tools. It looks like a place that stone tool weilding hunter gatherers would meet every year. And then leave.

Compare that the civilizations of the Tigris-Ephrates and you see massive cities, measured in square miles, permanent habitation by tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands over hundreds, even thousands of years, complex writing systems, expansive trade networks, professional militarizes, science, large scale agriculture, empires and kings.

Civilization clearly started there. Gobekli Tepi was neolithic, primitive, regional, and comparatively small.

There's 6,000 years between GT and the Tigris Euphrates, that's the same time between the Tigris and us reaching the Moon!

For "primitive" people they went through a lot of effort to tell us a story that involved quarrying, transporting and carving 10 ton stones

They weren't simple and primitive, they were humans and there is less than no interest in learning more about them. Who were they? Where did they go? Why did they build, then bury Gobekli Tepe 11,600 years ago, assuming that dating is accurate?

The site was discovered 30 years ago and is ONLY 5% EXPLORED!! 5%!

The WEF group in charge of the site is building over parts of it, punted any further excavations to "future generations" and planted over other parts of the site

There are over 100 other steale that were found by ground penetrating radar AND WILL NOT BE EXPLORED until God knows when, some "future generation"

That's NOT science, that's reeks of a cover up

 

[braalian]

Another curious item on top of the vulture stone are the "handbags of the Gods" These appear in carvings all over the world

I would imagine a sack to carry shit in was one of the earliest inventions in many cultures all over the world

 

[Skylar]

There's 6,000 years between GT and the Tigris Euphrates, that's the same time between the Tigris and us reaching the Moon!

For "primitive" people they went through a lot of effort to tell us a story that involved quarrying, transporting and carving 10 ton stones

They weren't simple and primitive, they were humans and there is less than no interest in learning more about them. Who were they? Where did they go? Why did they build, then bury Gobekli Tepe 11,600 years ago, assuming that dating is accurate?

My point exactly. GT was far more primitive than the Tigrus-Euprhates civilizations. They had less technology. No pottery. No real writing. No large scale agriculture. No metal working. Per many archeologists, not even permanent habitation. They used stone tools.

In yet another fantastic example of why hyper-diffusion is a spectacularly poor explanation, the farther we go in the past the LESS technologically sophisticated the peoples are.

And don't get me wrong. GT is an impressive site and a fascinating point of departure for an exploration of the deep past and what hunter gatherer peoples were capable of. But the 'cradle of civilization'?

Um, no. Its 20 buildings across about a dozen acres.

The progression of complexity is generally forward. You go back into the Egyptian archeological record, and you have MORE primative structures. Caves leading to clay buildings, to clay structures, to clay brick pyramids, to stone proto-pyramids, to true pyramids, to the lime stone megastructure that is the Great Pyramid.

With the less sophistication in the past. And the greater sophistication later.

Same with Peru. Macchu Picchu was the pinnacle of Inca stonework, built in 1450. But there are many, MANY pre-inca civilizations that has far less sophisticated stone work. Caral-Supe for example used crude mortar and had large gaps in their stonework.

Caral-Supe, like GT, like the clay buildings of Egypt that predate the pyramids.....are explicit contradictions of hyper-diffusion. As we generally see LESS sophistication as we go back. Not more.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Yeah they're probably just water buckets.

Correct.

Reasonable explanations are always much more likely than nutter fantasies.

 

[Skylar]

Correct.

Reasonable explanations are always much more likely than nutter fantasies.

Exactly. WHen you hear hoof beats, think horses. Not zebras.

Or in the case of hyper-diffusion, Pegasus unicorns.

Occam's Razor cuts hyper-diffusion to ribbons. There are far, far better explanations that are orders of magnitude less complicated and backed with mountains of evidence.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Correct.

Reasonable explanations are always much more likely than nutter fantasies.

Wow!

We finally figured out how to weave baskets to carry water!!!!

Let's carve a 10 ton steale to commemorate this great accomplishment, then bury the site!

And even though the site will remain hidden for almost 12,000 years. The first major civilization from the Tigris Euphrates 6,000 years from now will coincidentally also figure out how to weave baskets to carry water in the exact same manner!!

Surely they will memorialize this accomplishment as well!

What's your big investment in the clearly incorrect current understanding human civilizations?

How if your life different if Gobekli Tepe preceded the Sumerians by 6,000 years?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Exactly. WHen you hear hoof beats, think horses. Not zebras.

Or in the case of hyper-diffusion, Pegasus unicorns.

Occam's Razor cuts hyper-diffusion to ribbons. There are far, far better explanations that are orders of magnitude less complicated and backed with mountains of evidence.

Here's Saysayhumana, Peru. Notice anything strange about your "prior civilizations were far less capable and accomplished than later ones" theory?

And let's go across the globe to Lebanon. The sleepy old town once known as Heliopolis but now Baalbek

After Augustus conquered Egypt he was the undisputed most powerful leader in the world. He gave orders to go build a magnificent Roman city, in the middle of nowhere - Baalbek

Again we see the neat Roman stonework on top of inconceivable large foundation stones. Stones that were horrible weathered as if they had been there for ages, perhaps even submerged at some point in the distant past.

The Roman architecture at Baalbek rivals anything in Rome, but cannot replicate the foundation

 

[Skylar]

Wow!

We finally figured out how to weave baskets to carry water!!!!

Who says its a woven basket? There is text across it.

By your logic, those are 'woven fingers'. Because the exact same texture is across them too.

This is a terrible argument.

Let's carve a 10 ton steale to commemorate this great accomplishment, then bury the site!

Yeah, it happens all the time. Almost all the stelea in the Mayan empire were buried. Many, perhaps most, were defaced in some way.

Most archeological finds of every type.....are in the ground. GT was entirely buried.

What's your big investment in the clearly incorrect current understanding human civilizations?

How if your life different if Gobekli Tepe preceded the Sumerians by 6,000 years?

Again, a small neolithic hunting lodge or temple complex of 20 buildings wasn't the cradle of civilization.

Worse, it contradicts hyper diffusion, being far MORE primative and less advanced than what followed it.

Hyper-diffusion is just a terrible explanation.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

We finally figured out how to weave baskets to carry water!!!!

Right, you're the goofball imagining they are carrying nuclear codes or something.

 

[Skylar]

Here's Saysayhumana, Peru. Notice anything strange about your "prior civilizations were far less capable and accomplished than later ones"?

Again, another 14th - 15th century site. You're disproving hyper-diffusion by citing the LATER structures as more complex than the earlier sites. Which what archeology overwhelmingly demonstrates.

Caral-Supe as an example predates Saysayhumana by THOUSANDS of years, placing it far, far close to the 'deep knowledge' of the hyper-diffusion theory. Yet instead of the buildings getting BETTER the closer you get to the 'deep knowledge' of the 'lost civilization' or 'aliens' or whatever, you get less sophistication.

With Caral-Supe using crude mortar with large gaps in the stone in stonework that was far poorer quality than what would follow in the 14th and 15th century. While Saysayhumana from the 14th century is FAR more sophisticated.

 

[Vastator]

Again, another 14th - 15th century site. You're disproving hyper-diffusion by citing the LATER structures as more complex than the earlier sites. Which what archeology overwhelmingly demonstrates.

Caral-Supe as an example predates Saysayhumana by THOUSANDS of years, placing it far, far close to the 'deep knowledge' of the hyper-diffusion theory. Yet instead of the buildings getting BETTER the closer you get to the 'deep knowledge' of the 'lost civilization' or 'aliens' or whatever, you get less sophistication.

View attachment 965491

With Caral-Supe using crude mortar with large gaps in the stone in stonework that was far poorer quality than what would follow in the 14th and 15th century. While Saysayhumana from the 14th century is FAR more sophisticated.

Different people, using different construction methods, with somewhat different materials. Fast forward to today, and compare many of our structures. Concrete that barely lasts a hundred years, red iron, sheet metal, and glass buildings... all of these are clearly more sophisticated. But they won't endure the march of time as well as large, monolithic stones, but... they are cheaper, and faster to construct than their immediate predecessors. Which can easily explain the shift from large painstakingly slow carving of individual stones, to a stone, and morter style of construction. To claim the latter is less sophisticated is patently incorrect, and poorly thought out...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Again, another 14th - 15th century site. You're disproving hyper-diffusion by citing the LATER structures as more complex than the earlier sites. Which what archeology overwhelmingly demonstrates.

Caral-Supe as an example predates Saysayhumana by THOUSANDS of years, placing it far, far close to the 'deep knowledge' of the hyper-diffusion theory. Yet instead of the buildings getting BETTER the closer you get to the 'deep knowledge' of the 'lost civilization' or 'aliens' or whatever, you get less sophistication.

View attachment 965491

With Caral-Supe using crude mortar with large gaps in the stone in stonework that was far poorer quality than what would follow in the 14th and 15th century. While Saysayhumana from the 14th century is FAR more sophisticated.

Wait.

You think the Incas moved 125 ton stones and perfectly fit them? IS that your story?

You think later stone work is superior to the base here??

 

[Vastator]

Wait.

You think the Incas moved 125 ton stones and perfectly fit them? IS that your story?

You think later stone work is superior to the base here??

The "stonework"? Perhaps not. But perhaps yes. Quicker to construct. Just as effective for those who built it. Less labor in transport, and construction freeing up assets to work on other projects. Just because the well cut stone looks impressive; doesn't mean it was more sophisticated. In fact it suggests quite the opposite...