How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[sealybobo]

The "spiritual" you believe in to you exists independent of the physical.
So far the only spiritual that can be demonstrated exists only only as a result of the physical. For example music. The spiritual is a creation of the physical. You can give no example of the spiritual existing independent of the physical.

You've presented this argument before and I agreed it is a bit of a challenge. You are asking for a physical demonstration of something spiritual. You are assuming the music which you admit is spiritual, is created physically. This is true, however... this doesn't explain where the inspiration for the music came from. Yes, neurons fired and a process took place in the composer's brain, but where did it come from?

Inspiration.

Love this word! Of all the words humans have ever created to define their spiritual connection, this one is at the top. Human inspiration is derived directly from spiritual nature.

What's amazing is how fast we got smart enough to come up with math art music religions inventions. We went from very primitive creatures to living in air conditioning in a blink of an eye. We are so far away from the nearest star and the universe is so big and there is so much we don't know. Who came up with languages? If we were born on an island together how long would it take for us to come up with a language in which we can communicate? How many words would be in it? Then to come up with an alphabet? Now for someone to learn how topbuild tune and play a guitar? How is this all possible? Mind blowing. You think a god that cares about us is involved? Really boss?

 

[Muhammed]

Transcendental meditation - just smoke weed. It's easier.

I disagree. Smoking dope does not make it easier.

I've been practicing TM for over 30 years.

 

[sealybobo]

Transcendental meditation - just smoke weed. It's easier.

I disagree. Smoking dope does not make it easier.

I've been practicing TM for over 30 years.

Why do you guys put your middle fingers to your thumbs while meditating? I try meditating in the steam room and sauna at the gym and I'm more comfortable with my hands relaxed. Is there a reason for doing that with your thumbs and fingers? What's that all about?

 

[Boss]

Who caused god? Why can't the universe or cosmos be eternal and leave god out of the equasion.

Nothing "caused" God... this has been explained to you a thousand times. Does it make you feel better to ask it again and again? God is spiritual, not physical... there is nothing to cause. Physical was caused by Spiritual, it's the only way Physical can exist. Physical didn't start itself, matter can't create matter, energy can't create itself.

The universe cannot be eternal unless Isaac Newton's Laws of Motion are incorrect. The universe is in motion. According to Newton, something acted to set it into motion. If it's in motion and something set it into motion, it had a beginning. Then, if this isn't clear enough evidence... we have the law of thermodynamic entropy. This totally contradicts an eternal universe.

Now you can certainly BELIEVE the universe is eternal and God can't exist because something would have to create an omnipotent spiritual energy... but these are FAITH-BASED opinions.

 

[Boss]

You've given science zero evidence just words. At this point your imaginary friend is just a hypothesis.

What is Science? The physical study of physical nature of the physical universe. It can't have evidence of spiritual nature without making the spiritual nature physical, therefore a paradox exists that can't be overcome. If I can ever give you physical evidence of something spiritual, it is not spiritual any more.

It's not my imagination when I realize blessings from a spiritual source. If these did not happen rather routinely in my life, I would probably abandon spirituality as unimportant to me as a person, as you have. But I dig the bennies too much man! It helps me to cope with all kinds of things in my life and resolve many conflicts. I just feel a whole lot more complete and content as a person, my mind is not wrought with overwhelming frustration and need for validation. It gives me a confidence to resolve problems without fear of failure and inspires me to broaden my horizons. To see the Big Picture better than I ever have in my life. My worst day with Spirituality is greater than my best day without it. But you are here trying to talk me into "not believing in it" as if that's going to happen somehow... it's really cute to me.

.

bossy: It gives me a confidence to resolve problems without fear of failure and inspires me to broaden my horizons. To see the Big Picture better than I ever have in my life. My worst day with Spirituality is greater than my best day without it ... But you are here trying to talk me into "not believing in it" as if that's going to happen somehow.

.
... not believing in it

as long as (it) remains politically correct by its interpreter ? ... but not the inexplicable Spirituality necessary for all living beings that distinguishes them from all other matter - sorry bossy, being a right wing Foxist does not make you a Spiritualist.

Ahh.... okay, now I get why you are coming across so incendiary toward me. This is about me being a conservative! Has nothing to do with our personal spiritual views and everything to do with our politics. That's nice to know, Breeze!

.
no, you shape your "spiritual" views to suit your lifestyle rather than retaining collective, mutual fundamentals of Spiritualism.

"greater than self" is a Red Herring as your choice of exclusivity from all other living beings what is naturally possessed whether not demonstrative (to your) satisfaction or not.

at any rate whether greater or not is as well physical not simply a mental state and provable by your response or lack of to a hungry Lion when left with only your own "superior" prowess as defense against the beasts simplest of pleasures - good luck bossy.

.

I'm imagining you to sound like w.c. fields saying whatever you just said. Should have ended it with my little chickadee.

You mean someone actually comprehended what he said?

 

[Muhammed]

Transcendental meditation - just smoke weed. It's easier.

I disagree. Smoking dope does not make it easier.

I've been practicing TM for over 30 years.

Why do you guys put your middle fingers to your thumbs while meditating? I try meditating in the steam room and sauna at the gym and I'm more comfortable with my hands relaxed. Is there a reason for doing that with your thumbs and fingers? What's that all about?

It's sort of a Pavlov's dog type of reaction. My theory is that if your body gets used to meditating while in a certain position, then it will be faster and easier to enter a deep level of meditation while you are in that position. Your body simply expects it.

If you are uncomfortable in that position, then try something else. Personally, I usually meditate while lying flat on my back with my hands on my chest.

What matters the most when you are a beginner is that you are very comfortable and have your body in a consistent position every time.

 

[Boss]

You think a god that cares about us is involved? Really boss?

I've already said I don't believe in a "caring" God. Why in the hell would an omnipotent spiritual energy have the human emotions of compassion, sympathy or empathy? It makes no sense... if it wanted something to be a certain way, it would be that way and there wouldn't be any other way possible. Why would it "get angry" that we're not doing what it wants? It's an omnipotent force, right? If God required us to worship it, this would be like breathing, eating and shitting... unavoidable and required.

 

[sealybobo]

Transcendental meditation - just smoke weed. It's easier.

I disagree. Smoking dope does not make it easier.

I've been practicing TM for over 30 years.

Why do you guys put your middle fingers to your thumbs while meditating? I try meditating in the steam room and sauna at the gym and I'm more comfortable with my hands relaxed. Is there a reason for doing that with your thumbs and fingers? What's that all about?

It's sort of a Pavlov's dog type of reaction. My theory is that if your body gets used to meditating while in a certain position, then it will be faster and easier to enter a deep level of meditation while you are in that position. Your body simply expects it.

If you are uncomfortable in that position, then try something else. Personally, I usually meditate while lying flat on my back with my hands on my chest.

What matters the most when you are a beginner is that you are very comfortable and have your body in a consistent position every time.

I'll put my hands palm down on my knees legs crossed. What should I be thinking? Nothing? About something? Help!

 

[sealybobo]

Who caused god? Why can't the universe or cosmos be eternal and leave god out of the equasion.

Nothing "caused" God... this has been explained to you a thousand times. Does it make you feel better to ask it again and again? God is spiritual, not physical... there is nothing to cause. Physical was caused by Spiritual, it's the only way Physical can exist. Physical didn't start itself, matter can't create matter, energy can't create itself.

The universe cannot be eternal unless Isaac Newton's Laws of Motion are incorrect. The universe is in motion. According to Newton, something acted to set it into motion. If it's in motion and something set it into motion, it had a beginning. Then, if this isn't clear enough evidence... we have the law of thermodynamic entropy. This totally contradicts an eternal universe.

Now you can certainly BELIEVE the universe is eternal and God can't exist because something would have to create an omnipotent spiritual energy... but these are FAITH-BASED opinions.

You confuse the universe with our seeable universe. Think bigger.
So spiritual creates physical like the mind created language math music etc?

 

[sealybobo]

What is Science? The physical study of physical nature of the physical universe. It can't have evidence of spiritual nature without making the spiritual nature physical, therefore a paradox exists that can't be overcome. If I can ever give you physical evidence of something spiritual, it is not spiritual any more.

It's not my imagination when I realize blessings from a spiritual source. If these did not happen rather routinely in my life, I would probably abandon spirituality as unimportant to me as a person, as you have. But I dig the bennies too much man! It helps me to cope with all kinds of things in my life and resolve many conflicts. I just feel a whole lot more complete and content as a person, my mind is not wrought with overwhelming frustration and need for validation. It gives me a confidence to resolve problems without fear of failure and inspires me to broaden my horizons. To see the Big Picture better than I ever have in my life. My worst day with Spirituality is greater than my best day without it. But you are here trying to talk me into "not believing in it" as if that's going to happen somehow... it's really cute to me.

.

bossy: It gives me a confidence to resolve problems without fear of failure and inspires me to broaden my horizons. To see the Big Picture better than I ever have in my life. My worst day with Spirituality is greater than my best day without it ... But you are here trying to talk me into "not believing in it" as if that's going to happen somehow.

.
... not believing in it

as long as (it) remains politically correct by its interpreter ? ... but not the inexplicable Spirituality necessary for all living beings that distinguishes them from all other matter - sorry bossy, being a right wing Foxist does not make you a Spiritualist.

Ahh.... okay, now I get why you are coming across so incendiary toward me. This is about me being a conservative! Has nothing to do with our personal spiritual views and everything to do with our politics. That's nice to know, Breeze!

.
no, you shape your "spiritual" views to suit your lifestyle rather than retaining collective, mutual fundamentals of Spiritualism.

"greater than self" is a Red Herring as your choice of exclusivity from all other living beings what is naturally possessed whether not demonstrative (to your) satisfaction or not.

at any rate whether greater or not is as well physical not simply a mental state and provable by your response or lack of to a hungry Lion when left with only your own "superior" prowess as defense against the beasts simplest of pleasures - good luck bossy.

.

I'm imagining you to sound like w.c. fields saying whatever you just said. Should have ended it with my little chickadee.

You mean someone actually comprehended what he said?

Not me.

 

[Boss]

Who caused god? Why can't the universe or cosmos be eternal and leave god out of the equasion.

Nothing "caused" God... this has been explained to you a thousand times. Does it make you feel better to ask it again and again? God is spiritual, not physical... there is nothing to cause. Physical was caused by Spiritual, it's the only way Physical can exist. Physical didn't start itself, matter can't create matter, energy can't create itself.

The universe cannot be eternal unless Isaac Newton's Laws of Motion are incorrect. The universe is in motion. According to Newton, something acted to set it into motion. If it's in motion and something set it into motion, it had a beginning. Then, if this isn't clear enough evidence... we have the law of thermodynamic entropy. This totally contradicts an eternal universe.

Now you can certainly BELIEVE the universe is eternal and God can't exist because something would have to create an omnipotent spiritual energy... but these are FAITH-BASED opinions.

You confuse the universe with our seeable universe. Think bigger.
So spiritual creates physical like the mind created language math music etc?

Jeeesh... I am the one thinking bigger, dumbass! You're the one thinking small.

"The mind" is not something physical, is it? Where does it come from? The brain? The oxygenated blood cells in the brain? Electricity firing between neurons? No denying the mind exists, it's just not a 'physical' thing. It's like the Internet.

Again-- The spiritual had to create the physical because the physical cannot create itself. The spiritual doesn't need creating, it's not physical.

 

[Boss]

You confuse the universe with our seeable universe.

We can't argue from a scientific perspective about things unknown. Science can't evaluate that which science can't observe. We can speculate, we can hypothesize, but when we start adopting faith in conclusions about things science doesn't know, that's ignorance of science.

Infinite is not a value. It means the value is unlimited. The only problem with declaring the universe infinite is, you can't prove this with science. The value of infinite is unknown, so if the value of the universe is infinite, it is also unknown. See the paradox? It's almost the same as the "god did it" argument, it assumes conclusions that aren't scientifically supported and does nothing to advance science.

 

[Carla_Danger]

Transcendental meditation - just smoke weed. It's easier.

I disagree. Smoking dope does not make it easier.

I've been practicing TM for over 30 years.

I can't meditate to save my life. I've tried. For some reason, a grocery list pops in my head, or a to-do list....maybe even an old SNL re-run.

 

[Esmeralda]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

Human imagination and creativity. Nothing more.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I'm pretty sure that god created himself. After all, the dude has absolutely no limitations, so why not?

 

[sealybobo]

You confuse the universe with our seeable universe.

We can't argue from a scientific perspective about things unknown. Science can't evaluate that which science can't observe. We can speculate, we can hypothesize, but when we start adopting faith in conclusions about things science doesn't know, that's ignorance of science.

Infinite is not a value. It means the value is unlimited. The only problem with declaring the universe infinite is, you can't prove this with science. The value of infinite is unknown, so if the value of the universe is infinite, it is also unknown. See the paradox? It's almost the same as the "god did it" argument, it assumes conclusions that aren't scientifically supported and does nothing to advance science.

What's beyond the finite universe?

 

[Boss]

What's beyond the finite universe?

What is finite? You remember earlier, things we see 500 years ago? The fact that humans can't see the present? What IS finite?

Many theories about what lies beyond our cosmos... universe... whatever you want to call it. We are not ever going to find those answers definitively. There will always be speculations, doubts, counter-arguments, contradicting or competing theories... This is not an easy question to answer. So what we have to ultimately admit is, this all depends on your faith. Do you have faith that the scientific physical understanding of the universe is everything there can possibly be? Do you have faith there is a higher spiritual power? Either opinion is faith-based. I have no problem sharing my faith-based opinions with others, or listening to theirs. What bugs me are those who try to camouflage their faith-based beliefs as Science.

 

[Muhammed]

You confuse the universe with our seeable universe.

We can't argue from a scientific perspective about things unknown. Science can't evaluate that which science can't observe. We can speculate, we can hypothesize, but when we start adopting faith in conclusions about things science doesn't know, that's ignorance of science.

Infinite is not a value. It means the value is unlimited. The only problem with declaring the universe infinite is, you can't prove this with science. The value of infinite is unknown, so if the value of the universe is infinite, it is also unknown. See the paradox? It's almost the same as the "god did it" argument, it assumes conclusions that aren't scientifically supported and does nothing to advance science.

What's beyond the finite universe?

There is no beyond. If it exists, then by definition it is a part of the universe.

 

[edthecynic]

we have the law of thermodynamic entropy. This totally contradicts an eternal universe.

How many times are you going to repeat that lie?

 

[edthecynic]

The universe cannot be eternal unless Isaac Newton's Laws of Motion are incorrect. The universe is in motion.

At what temperature will all motion in the universe stop?