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How Can The Free World Help The Ukrainian War Effort!

JimofPennsylvan

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The people of Ukraine must understand why the United States cannot establish a "No-Fly" zone over Ukraine. The short answer is that it would create too high of a risk of a nuclear war with Russia, this writer's personal opinion is that it would definitely cause a nuclear war with Russia. The reasoning here starts with Vladimir Putin's character. He is the most ruthless, callous type of person a human being can be, killing millions of people would not cause personal turmoil for Mr. Putin like it would a normal person, doing such an act would be like making a move on a chess board for Putin. President Putin's behavior in Syria, Chechnya and the Separatist areas of Ukraine back around 2014 demonstrate this complete disregard for human life. Further Vladimir Putin is a barbarian there is no real commitment in him to be virtuous meaning that if one hurts him he is going to hurt that person back, it is his mode of survival it goes to the core of his character; his whole life demonstrates this. If America establishes a No-fly zone in Ukraine it would have to enforce it and since Russia has ground troops in Ukraine and Russian air cover is vital to protecting that force and aiding in that force succeeding in its mission, Russian pilots would have to fly into Ukraine resulting in U.S. pilots having to shoot them down. The loss of Russian pilots plus the corresponding loss of Russian ground forces would be something Vladimir Putin could not let pass his character would not allow it and the only means he would have to strike back at America is to use a nuclear weapon. Russia has various size nuclear weapons so Vladimir Putin would likely use a small size nuclear weapon which would then kill at least tens of thousands of people and then America would have to respond because for the security of the world and especially for the American people the U.S. government cannot allow a sovereign government to unjustly use a nuclear weapon and not militarily respond in a manner that matches the nuclear harm meaning the U.S. would have to at least use a small size nuclear weapon that would kill tens of thousands of Russians; even if the U.S. does not continue the unfolding back and forth that would result from the Putin's guaranteed further nuclear retaliation the world is still going to see a hundred plus thousand of civilians dead over this matter with now the use of nuclear weapons foreseeable threats in the world or quasi acceptable behavior; for the security of the world this path cannot be traveled. Further evidence of the risk that Vladimir Putin would use nuclear weapons are his comments he made six days ago that if outside countries interfere in Russia's military move in Ukraine "they must know that Russia will respond immediately, and the consequences will be such as you have never seen in your entire history."; many credible assessments conclude Vladimir Putin was referring here to the use of nuclear weapons.

Nevertheless I don't know why the Free World including the U.S. cannot get the Ukrainian Security Forces SAM systems (surface-to-air missile defense systems). I don't mean giving the Ukrainian military America's Patriot SAM systems; one these are complex systems that require great skill to operate which the Ukraine military does not have the personnel to operate plus in order for these systems to make a difference in the Ukrainian/Russian war a lot of Patriot batteries would have to be given to Ukraine and since this war is a David vs. Goliath war with Ukraine holding the David role some of these Patriot systems would be captured by Russia where the Russians could then study the systems and then know America's capability to shoot down Russian ballistic missiles and counter our America's SAM defense systems leaving America weaker. But the Ukraine military doesn't need "Porsche" SAM systems, "Volkswagen" SAM systems will do the Russian military is using air power like cruise missiles (used on Freedom Square in Kharkiv) {cruise missiles are old technology they have been around since the 1980's} and planes flying low enough it sort of looks like they are giving an air show to the Ukrainians. There is like a hundred plus countries with SAM systems why doesn't the Free World just give the Ukrainian government the money to buy SAM systems in the open market?

The other thing that the Free World seems to falling down on in giving the Ukrainian military weapons is drones. Yes, the Ukrainian military has drones and the media has shown them as being effective. But is Europe and America getting the Ukrainian military sufficient numbers of drones, it seems doubtful! One sees the media images of the Russian military in Ukraine and there is lines of tanks and trucks that have rocket launchers on them, military experts say that for an opposing army that had good air power that the Russian Army in Ukraine provides a target rich environment. The point here is that if the Ukrainian Army could get more drones that could lessen the imbalance in the war where Russia dwarfs Ukraine in military power because the drones could be used to degrade the Russian military's ability to deliver explosive ordinance on Ukraine cities under military assault by destroying these Russian vehicle weapon systems. It is not like the Free World would have to train up Ukrainian pilots to increase the Ukrainian drone capability, these drone weapons really even the most undeveloped militaries and fighting forces can master this weapon system. The Houthis rebels in Yemen use drone weapons quite effectively, and the Islamic State early in their success used drones in Syria and Iraq and to a large degree and actually used commercially available drone technology!

It was unfortunate the mix up this week where the Ukraine government thought they were going to get Soviet era military planes from European Union countries to help them fight this war against Russia; but one cannot really begrudge these European Union countries because if Ukraine falls to Russia and/or Belarus sends its armed forces into the war on the side of Russia which is a real possibility depending on Russia's need as determined by Vladimir Putin these European Union countries are going to need every plane they have to defend their own people. Looking at this problem one could break it down as such; one really good thing is that Ukraine has a significant number of fighter pilots that have the experience to fly combat planes but government just needs the fighter planes. How about those dozens of combat planes flown out of the country of Afghanistan six months ago when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban and the Afghanistan pilots flew their planes out of the country so they wouldn't have been killed by the Taliban. Technically these planes were given to the Afghanistan government by the U.S. government for such government to defend the people of Afghanistan since the Afghanistan government is no more the agreement for transferring the planes should be null and void and so the U.S. should be free to transfer the planes to Ukraine. Ukraine needs combat planes this war caused by Russia is slowing the world's economic recovery from the Covid 19 pandemic more specifically it is costing the world tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars cannot the free world find a decent bank roll and give it to their intelligent services to buy combat planes that need money more than they need combat planes and give the planes to the Ukrainian government, the sooner the world can bring this Russian invasion war to an end the sooner it can get things to a reasonable sense of normalcy and that will be dramatically better for the world economy.

From an outsiders point of view watching the performance of the Ukrainian military and security forces in trying to fight against the Russian invasion one question arises why do Ukrainians leave their country's bridges intact when they lose territory to the Russian Army it seems like Defense 101 that Ukraine would wire major bridge's with explosives and when they are on the verge of losing the territory where the bridge is at to the Russians blow-up the bridge so the Russians cannot use it. This is especially the case in the south, Russia clearly has as its goal to deny the Ukrainian people access to the Black Sea which will strangle the Ukrainian economy because the Ukraine economy depends on exports that are funneled thru the Black Sea and in order to do this Russia has to take a lot of territory on the southern coast of Ukraine and along this coast there is a lot of tributaries which have bridges that cross them. If the bridges are destroyed it majorly hurts Russian supply lines. Many people believe that if worst comes to worst for the Ukrainian people they can win this war through a tenacious insurgency, destroying bridges in Russian controlled territory would be a major step for the Ukrainian insurgency in turning the tide in the war, isolate Russian units, one would think it would be the Ukrainian militaries top priority to blow the bridges before it loses the territory. One of America's preeminent Generals, General David Petraeus, who lead America's forces during the Iraq war when that war was in a stalemate and America was doing a large force and resource surge into Iraq and ultimately brought that war to a successful resolution and has the reputation as having essentially written the U.S. military manual in combating an insurgency says that Russia cannot win this war if the Ukrainian put up a permanent firm resistance. General Petraeus says Russia can take the ground in Ukraine but cannot hold it the Russian Army does not have number of forces in Ukraine to hold the Ukrainian territory against a tenacious resistance.

This writer has no military background so I am a sofa general so probably these following comments are stupid but I mention it because there doesn't seem like there is any answers to the following problem. Ukraine has this forty mile Russia mechanized column with the column's front at the Capital city, Kyiv's, gate. Most people think that in the next few days Russia is going to encircle Kyiv with the spectrum of weapon systems from the column and essentially level the city thereby largely wiping out the city's resistance so the Russians can then take Kyiv. The common consensus throughout the world is that Ukraine cannot do anything about this. Of course there is no easy battlefield strategy for the Ukrainian military to combat this. One would like to see the Ukrainian military do something more than wait until after Kyiv is turned into rubble help the remaining fighter fight block by block to hold off the Russians. If the Ukrainian military pulls up artillery guns from south of Kyiv to the city to try to degrade the encircling Russian guns on the city those Russian guns will turn on them along with Russia's airpower and will take these Ukrainian artillery units out in like one hours time once spotted which will happen once they commence firing upon the Russians. But how about if the Ukrainians used back hoes and cranes to dig like three stories deep trenches like twenty-five feet wide and forty yards long. The Ukrainian artillery units could back the artillery gun to the back of the trench to fire a few waves of shells and then roll it to the front of the trench and use the surrounding soil of the trench as a protective barrier against incoming Russian shells and rockets. Well at least maybe the Ukrainian units would have a battlefield life-span longer than thirty minutes!
 

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shockedcanadian

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The people of Ukraine must understand why the United States cannot establish a "No-Fly" zone over Ukraine. The short answer is that it would create too high of a risk of a nuclear war with Russia, this writer's personal opinion is that it would definitely cause a nuclear war with Russia. The reasoning here starts with Vladimir Putin's character. He is the most ruthless, callous type of person a human being can be, killing millions of people would not cause personal turmoil for Mr. Putin like it would a normal person, doing such an act would be like making a move on a chess board for Putin. President Putin's behavior in Syria, Chechnya and the Separatist areas of Ukraine back around 2014 demonstrate this complete disregard for human life. Further Vladimir Putin is a barbarian there is no real commitment in him to be virtuous meaning that if one hurts him he is going to hurt that person back, it is his mode of survival it goes to the core of his character; his whole life demonstrates this. If America establishes a No-fly zone in Ukraine it would have to enforce it and since Russia has ground troops in Ukraine and Russian air cover is vital to protecting that force and aiding in that force succeeding in its mission, Russian pilots would have to fly into Ukraine resulting in U.S. pilots having to shoot them down. The loss of Russian pilots plus the corresponding loss of Russian ground forces would be something Vladimir Putin could not let pass his character would not allow it and the only means he would have to strike back at America is to use a nuclear weapon. Russia has various size nuclear weapons so Vladimir Putin would likely use a small size nuclear weapon which would then kill at least tens of thousands of people and then America would have to respond because for the security of the world and especially for the American people the U.S. government cannot allow a sovereign government to unjustly use a nuclear weapon and not militarily respond in a manner that matches the nuclear harm meaning the U.S. would have to at least use a small size nuclear weapon that would kill tens of thousands of Russians; even if the U.S. does not continue the unfolding back and forth that would result from the Putin's guaranteed further nuclear retaliation the world is still going to see a hundred plus thousand of civilians dead over this matter with now the use of nuclear weapons foreseeable threats in the world or quasi acceptable behavior; for the security of the world this path cannot be traveled. Further evidence of the risk that Vladimir Putin would use nuclear weapons are his comments he made six days ago that if outside countries interfere in Russia's military move in Ukraine "they must know that Russia will respond immediately, and the consequences will be such as you have never seen in your entire history."; many credible assessments conclude Vladimir Putin was referring here to the use of nuclear weapons.

Nevertheless I don't know why the Free World including the U.S. cannot get the Ukrainian Security Forces SAM systems (surface-to-air missile defense systems). I don't mean giving the Ukrainian military America's Patriot SAM systems; one these are complex systems that require great skill to operate which the Ukraine military does not have the personnel to operate plus in order for these systems to make a difference in the Ukrainian/Russian war a lot of Patriot batteries would have to be given to Ukraine and since this war is a David vs. Goliath war with Ukraine holding the David role some of these Patriot systems would be captured by Russia where the Russians could then study the systems and then know America's capability to shoot down Russian ballistic missiles and counter our America's SAM defense systems leaving America weaker. But the Ukraine military doesn't need "Porsche" SAM systems, "Volkswagen" SAM systems will do the Russian military is using air power like cruise missiles (used on Freedom Square in Kharkiv) {cruise missiles are old technology they have been around since the 1980's} and planes flying low enough it sort of looks like they are giving an air show to the Ukrainians. There is like a hundred plus countries with SAM systems why doesn't the Free World just give the Ukrainian government the money to buy SAM systems in the open market?

The other thing that the Free World seems to falling down on in giving the Ukrainian military weapons is drones. Yes, the Ukrainian military has drones and the media has shown them as being effective. But is Europe and America getting the Ukrainian military sufficient numbers of drones, it seems doubtful! One sees the media images of the Russian military in Ukraine and there is lines of tanks and trucks that have rocket launchers on them, military experts say that for an opposing army that had good air power that the Russian Army in Ukraine provides a target rich environment. The point here is that if the Ukrainian Army could get more drones that could lessen the imbalance in the war where Russia dwarfs Ukraine in military power because the drones could be used to degrade the Russian military's ability to deliver explosive ordinance on Ukraine cities under military assault by destroying these Russian vehicle weapon systems. It is not like the Free World would have to train up Ukrainian pilots to increase the Ukrainian drone capability, these drone weapons really even the most undeveloped militaries and fighting forces can master this weapon system. The Houthis rebels in Yemen use drone weapons quite effectively, and the Islamic State early in their success used drones in Syria and Iraq and to a large degree and actually used commercially available drone technology!

It was unfortunate the mix up this week where the Ukraine government thought they were going to get Soviet era military planes from European Union countries to help them fight this war against Russia; but one cannot really begrudge these European Union countries because if Ukraine falls to Russia and/or Belarus sends its armed forces into the war on the side of Russia which is a real possibility depending on Russia's need as determined by Vladimir Putin these European Union countries are going to need every plane they have to defend their own people. Looking at this problem one could break it down as such; one really good thing is that Ukraine has a significant number of fighter pilots that have the experience to fly combat planes but government just needs the fighter planes. How about those dozens of combat planes flown out of the country of Afghanistan six months ago when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban and the Afghanistan pilots flew their planes out of the country so they wouldn't have been killed by the Taliban. Technically these planes were given to the Afghanistan government by the U.S. government for such government to defend the people of Afghanistan since the Afghanistan government is no more the agreement for transferring the planes should be null and void and so the U.S. should be free to transfer the planes to Ukraine. Ukraine needs combat planes this war caused by Russia is slowing the world's economic recovery from the Covid 19 pandemic more specifically it is costing the world tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars cannot the free world find a decent bank roll and give it to their intelligent services to buy combat planes that need money more than they need combat planes and give the planes to the Ukrainian government, the sooner the world can bring this Russian invasion war to an end the sooner it can get things to a reasonable sense of normalcy and that will be dramatically better for the world economy.

From an outsiders point of view watching the performance of the Ukrainian military and security forces in trying to fight against the Russian invasion one question arises why do Ukrainians leave their country's bridges intact when they lose territory to the Russian Army it seems like Defense 101 that Ukraine would wire major bridge's with explosives and when they are on the verge of losing the territory where the bridge is at to the Russians blow-up the bridge so the Russians cannot use it. This is especially the case in the south, Russia clearly has as its goal to deny the Ukrainian people access to the Black Sea which will strangle the Ukrainian economy because the Ukraine economy depends on exports that are funneled thru the Black Sea and in order to do this Russia has to take a lot of territory on the southern coast of Ukraine and along this coast there is a lot of tributaries which have bridges that cross them. If the bridges are destroyed it majorly hurts Russian supply lines. Many people believe that if worst comes to worst for the Ukrainian people they can win this war through a tenacious insurgency, destroying bridges in Russian controlled territory would be a major step for the Ukrainian insurgency in turning the tide in the war, isolate Russian units, one would think it would be the Ukrainian militaries top priority to blow the bridges before it loses the territory. One of America's preeminent Generals, General David Petraeus, who lead America's forces during the Iraq war when that war was in a stalemate and America was doing a large force and resource surge into Iraq and ultimately brought that war to a successful resolution and has the reputation as having essentially written the U.S. military manual in combating an insurgency says that Russia cannot win this war if the Ukrainian put up a permanent firm resistance. General Petraeus says Russia can take the ground in Ukraine but cannot hold it the Russian Army does not have number of forces in Ukraine to hold the Ukrainian territory against a tenacious resistance.

This writer has no military background so I am a sofa general so probably these following comments are stupid but I mention it because there doesn't seem like there is any answers to the following problem. Ukraine has this forty mile Russia mechanized column with the column's front at the Capital city, Kyiv's, gate. Most people think that in the next few days Russia is going to encircle Kyiv with the spectrum of weapon systems from the column and essentially level the city thereby largely wiping out the city's resistance so the Russians can then take Kyiv. The common consensus throughout the world is that Ukraine cannot do anything about this. Of course there is no easy battlefield strategy for the Ukrainian military to combat this. One would like to see the Ukrainian military do something more than wait until after Kyiv is turned into rubble help the remaining fighter fight block by block to hold off the Russians. If the Ukrainian military pulls up artillery guns from south of Kyiv to the city to try to degrade the encircling Russian guns on the city those Russian guns will turn on them along with Russia's airpower and will take these Ukrainian artillery units out in like one hours time once spotted which will happen once they commence firing upon the Russians. But how about if the Ukrainians used back hoes and cranes to dig like three stories deep trenches like twenty-five feet wide and forty yards long. The Ukrainian artillery units could back the artillery gun to the back of the trench to fire a few waves of shells and then roll it to the front of the trench and use the surrounding soil of the trench as a protective barrier against incoming Russian shells and rockets. Well at least maybe the Ukrainian units would have a battlefield life-span longer than thirty minutes!

I read your post. I will try and response succinctly as your post was quite lengthy.

I agree that if Russia takes Ukraine it will be difficult to hold if the people don't want Russia there, however, Russia will disarm the Ukranian military, confiscate weapons from citizens (even offer money for them), put a new government in place and people will just be happy to not have ongoing war and strife. Sure there will be resisters and such, but, without an organized military it won't be easy to roll back the clock. The Poland/Ukraine border (then Russia?) would become the new East/West Germany.

Over time, many, even most, will just accept that they are part of Russia again. Some will be unhappy, but over generations these memories dissipate. Russia has gone through plenty of formations over decades.

The West won't get involved in direct combat as the risk/reward isn't on the Ukranians side. Ukraine isn't a key supply chain player such as Taiwan, it's in a geographically less vital location than Taiwan, and, it's not a member of NATO. On top of that, sadly for the citizens, Ukraine is also very corrupt and hardly the bastion of freedom and capitalism that some might sell. Therefore, they receive limited weapons and other supports, but no tactical support.

Would the West, including America and Europe risk WWIII and nuclear armageddon? Not very likely.

We will, as a species though, have to eventually face down this nuclear threat. Global leadership has never succeeded in eliminating this threat to all of Mankind. Instead we have climate change pimps while the entire civilization is at the whims of any small number of Madmen.
 
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MarcATL

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I read your post. I will try and response succinctly as your post was quite lengthy.

I agree that if Russia takes Ukraine it will be difficult to hold if the people don't want Russia there, however, Russia will disarm the Ukranian military, confiscate weapons from citizens (even offer money for them), put a new government in place and people will just be happy to not have ongoing war and strife. Sure there will be resisters and such, but, without an organized military it won't be easy to roll back the clock. The Poland/Ukraine border (then Russia?) would become the new East/West Germany.

Over time, many, even most, will just accept that they are part of Russia again. Some will be unhappy, but over generations these memories dissipate. Russia has gone through plenty of formations over decades.

The West won't get involved in direct combat as the risk/reward isn't on the Ukranians side. Ukraine isn't a key supply chain player such as Taiwan, it's in a geographically less vital location than Taiwan, and, it's not a member of NATO. On top of that, sadly for the citizens, Ukraine is also very corrupt and hardly the bastion of freedom and capitalism that some might sell. Therefore, they receive limited weapons and other supports, but no tactical support.

Would the West, including America and Europe risk WWIII and nuclear armageddon? Not very likely.

We will, as a species though, will have to eventually face down this nuclear threat. Global leadership has never succeeded in eliminating this threat to all of Mankind. Instead we have climate change pimps while the entire civilization is at the whims of any small number of Madmen.
But, but, they're white! Surely something can be done about this debacle.
 

Esdraelon

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Most people think that in the next few days Russia is going to encircle Kyiv with the spectrum of weapon systems from the column and essentially level the city thereby largely wiping out the city's resistance so the Russians can then take Kyiv.
Russian forces MAY be able to accomplish this but if they do, they will be stained with that blood forever. Russia would be anathema, globally, for decades. They cannot live in this world without trade and interactions between themselves and the rest of the planet so Putin will likely do everything he can to avoid a massacre on the way to achieving his political and military goals.
 

Augustine_

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The people of Ukraine must understand why the United States cannot establish a "No-Fly" zone over Ukraine. The short answer is that it would create too high of a risk of a nuclear war with Russia, this writer's personal opinion is that it would definitely cause a nuclear war with Russia. The reasoning here starts with Vladimir Putin's character. He is the most ruthless, callous type of person a human being can be, killing millions of people would not cause personal turmoil for Mr. Putin like it would a normal person, doing such an act would be like making a move on a chess board for Putin. President Putin's behavior in Syria, Chechnya and the Separatist areas of Ukraine back around 2014 demonstrate this complete disregard for human life. Further Vladimir Putin is a barbarian there is no real commitment in him to be virtuous meaning that if one hurts him he is going to hurt that person back, it is his mode of survival it goes to the core of his character; his whole life demonstrates this. If America establishes a No-fly zone in Ukraine it would have to enforce it and since Russia has ground troops in Ukraine and Russian air cover is vital to protecting that force and aiding in that force succeeding in its mission, Russian pilots would have to fly into Ukraine resulting in U.S. pilots having to shoot them down. The loss of Russian pilots plus the corresponding loss of Russian ground forces would be something Vladimir Putin could not let pass his character would not allow it and the only means he would have to strike back at America is to use a nuclear weapon. Russia has various size nuclear weapons so Vladimir Putin would likely use a small size nuclear weapon which would then kill at least tens of thousands of people and then America would have to respond because for the security of the world and especially for the American people the U.S. government cannot allow a sovereign government to unjustly use a nuclear weapon and not militarily respond in a manner that matches the nuclear harm meaning the U.S. would have to at least use a small size nuclear weapon that would kill tens of thousands of Russians; even if the U.S. does not continue the unfolding back and forth that would result from the Putin's guaranteed further nuclear retaliation the world is still going to see a hundred plus thousand of civilians dead over this matter with now the use of nuclear weapons foreseeable threats in the world or quasi acceptable behavior; for the security of the world this path cannot be traveled. Further evidence of the risk that Vladimir Putin would use nuclear weapons are his comments he made six days ago that if outside countries interfere in Russia's military move in Ukraine "they must know that Russia will respond immediately, and the consequences will be such as you have never seen in your entire history."; many credible assessments conclude Vladimir Putin was referring here to the use of nuclear weapons.

Nevertheless I don't know why the Free World including the U.S. cannot get the Ukrainian Security Forces SAM systems (surface-to-air missile defense systems). I don't mean giving the Ukrainian military America's Patriot SAM systems; one these are complex systems that require great skill to operate which the Ukraine military does not have the personnel to operate plus in order for these systems to make a difference in the Ukrainian/Russian war a lot of Patriot batteries would have to be given to Ukraine and since this war is a David vs. Goliath war with Ukraine holding the David role some of these Patriot systems would be captured by Russia where the Russians could then study the systems and then know America's capability to shoot down Russian ballistic missiles and counter our America's SAM defense systems leaving America weaker. But the Ukraine military doesn't need "Porsche" SAM systems, "Volkswagen" SAM systems will do the Russian military is using air power like cruise missiles (used on Freedom Square in Kharkiv) {cruise missiles are old technology they have been around since the 1980's} and planes flying low enough it sort of looks like they are giving an air show to the Ukrainians. There is like a hundred plus countries with SAM systems why doesn't the Free World just give the Ukrainian government the money to buy SAM systems in the open market?

The other thing that the Free World seems to falling down on in giving the Ukrainian military weapons is drones. Yes, the Ukrainian military has drones and the media has shown them as being effective. But is Europe and America getting the Ukrainian military sufficient numbers of drones, it seems doubtful! One sees the media images of the Russian military in Ukraine and there is lines of tanks and trucks that have rocket launchers on them, military experts say that for an opposing army that had good air power that the Russian Army in Ukraine provides a target rich environment. The point here is that if the Ukrainian Army could get more drones that could lessen the imbalance in the war where Russia dwarfs Ukraine in military power because the drones could be used to degrade the Russian military's ability to deliver explosive ordinance on Ukraine cities under military assault by destroying these Russian vehicle weapon systems. It is not like the Free World would have to train up Ukrainian pilots to increase the Ukrainian drone capability, these drone weapons really even the most undeveloped militaries and fighting forces can master this weapon system. The Houthis rebels in Yemen use drone weapons quite effectively, and the Islamic State early in their success used drones in Syria and Iraq and to a large degree and actually used commercially available drone technology!

It was unfortunate the mix up this week where the Ukraine government thought they were going to get Soviet era military planes from European Union countries to help them fight this war against Russia; but one cannot really begrudge these European Union countries because if Ukraine falls to Russia and/or Belarus sends its armed forces into the war on the side of Russia which is a real possibility depending on Russia's need as determined by Vladimir Putin these European Union countries are going to need every plane they have to defend their own people. Looking at this problem one could break it down as such; one really good thing is that Ukraine has a significant number of fighter pilots that have the experience to fly combat planes but government just needs the fighter planes. How about those dozens of combat planes flown out of the country of Afghanistan six months ago when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban and the Afghanistan pilots flew their planes out of the country so they wouldn't have been killed by the Taliban. Technically these planes were given to the Afghanistan government by the U.S. government for such government to defend the people of Afghanistan since the Afghanistan government is no more the agreement for transferring the planes should be null and void and so the U.S. should be free to transfer the planes to Ukraine. Ukraine needs combat planes this war caused by Russia is slowing the world's economic recovery from the Covid 19 pandemic more specifically it is costing the world tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars cannot the free world find a decent bank roll and give it to their intelligent services to buy combat planes that need money more than they need combat planes and give the planes to the Ukrainian government, the sooner the world can bring this Russian invasion war to an end the sooner it can get things to a reasonable sense of normalcy and that will be dramatically better for the world economy.

From an outsiders point of view watching the performance of the Ukrainian military and security forces in trying to fight against the Russian invasion one question arises why do Ukrainians leave their country's bridges intact when they lose territory to the Russian Army it seems like Defense 101 that Ukraine would wire major bridge's with explosives and when they are on the verge of losing the territory where the bridge is at to the Russians blow-up the bridge so the Russians cannot use it. This is especially the case in the south, Russia clearly has as its goal to deny the Ukrainian people access to the Black Sea which will strangle the Ukrainian economy because the Ukraine economy depends on exports that are funneled thru the Black Sea and in order to do this Russia has to take a lot of territory on the southern coast of Ukraine and along this coast there is a lot of tributaries which have bridges that cross them. If the bridges are destroyed it majorly hurts Russian supply lines. Many people believe that if worst comes to worst for the Ukrainian people they can win this war through a tenacious insurgency, destroying bridges in Russian controlled territory would be a major step for the Ukrainian insurgency in turning the tide in the war, isolate Russian units, one would think it would be the Ukrainian militaries top priority to blow the bridges before it loses the territory. One of America's preeminent Generals, General David Petraeus, who lead America's forces during the Iraq war when that war was in a stalemate and America was doing a large force and resource surge into Iraq and ultimately brought that war to a successful resolution and has the reputation as having essentially written the U.S. military manual in combating an insurgency says that Russia cannot win this war if the Ukrainian put up a permanent firm resistance. General Petraeus says Russia can take the ground in Ukraine but cannot hold it the Russian Army does not have number of forces in Ukraine to hold the Ukrainian territory against a tenacious resistance.

This writer has no military background so I am a sofa general so probably these following comments are stupid but I mention it because there doesn't seem like there is any answers to the following problem. Ukraine has this forty mile Russia mechanized column with the column's front at the Capital city, Kyiv's, gate. Most people think that in the next few days Russia is going to encircle Kyiv with the spectrum of weapon systems from the column and essentially level the city thereby largely wiping out the city's resistance so the Russians can then take Kyiv. The common consensus throughout the world is that Ukraine cannot do anything about this. Of course there is no easy battlefield strategy for the Ukrainian military to combat this. One would like to see the Ukrainian military do something more than wait until after Kyiv is turned into rubble help the remaining fighter fight block by block to hold off the Russians. If the Ukrainian military pulls up artillery guns from south of Kyiv to the city to try to degrade the encircling Russian guns on the city those Russian guns will turn on them along with Russia's airpower and will take these Ukrainian artillery units out in like one hours time once spotted which will happen once they commence firing upon the Russians. But how about if the Ukrainians used back hoes and cranes to dig like three stories deep trenches like twenty-five feet wide and forty yards long. The Ukrainian artillery units could back the artillery gun to the back of the trench to fire a few waves of shells and then roll it to the front of the trench and use the surrounding soil of the trench as a protective barrier against incoming Russian shells and rockets. Well at least maybe the Ukrainian units would have a battlefield life-span longer than thirty minutes!
First, that was a great effort post! :thup:

In chess, there's a joke about how all your best plans often forget to remember that your opponent is also allowed to conjure up plans of their own. This is complicated by the fact that the "good" and "bad" sides of the chess board can both arguably be considered bad. Ukraine is an unlucky participant and victim in the game between the two.

If nuclear bombs weren't a factor I would vote for our military to defend Ukraine. But those soldiers could be nuked. Or we could be nuked. Or both :dunno:

And maybe we need to ask ourselves if Americans are ready to endure some crazy shit in order to start letting nukes fly. Trillion dollar missile interceptor projects, massive nuclear shelter infrastructure, etc. It's probably where the world's heading anyways. Then we could just send a bunch of A-10s to obliterate the Russian columns moving towards Kyiv.
 

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Russian forces MAY be able to accomplish this but if they do, they will be stained with that blood forever. Russia would be anathema, globally, for decades. They cannot live in this world without trade and interactions between themselves and the rest of the planet so Putin will likely do everything he can to avoid a massacre on the way to achieving his political and military goals.

Maybe. Unless he realizes there is no other manner to employ which will ensure success. That is what worries everyone, even if he is bluffing, there is great risk to everyone, including innocents in Europe.

It's why I have stated that grudgingly, for the sake of his citizens, the leadership in Ukraine has to be fully prepared if at some point the fight becomes inevitable.

At what point is this threshold reached? I can't say, that is what the Ukrainians and the couse of the war will determine. I did notice that the American government has stated publicly that they would accept Ukraines decision if they negotiate a solution (obviously as preferable as possible). I didn't hear this early on.

Fight to the end of course. In doing so always consider all of your options as the war continues, even in the event of surrender.
 
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Augustine_

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But, but, they're white! Surely something can be done about this debacle.
There's definitely an incredible amount of hypocrisy about how the world is reacting to this. But maybe this is the first; it has to start somewhere. Imagine if Iraqi's had smart phones and internet. Is anybody trying to get those things to Yemen?
 

Natural Citizen

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I won't speak to 'war efforts'' but the Ukraine itself cannot be helped absent honesty about the entirety of its predicament.

That's lacking. Almost completely.
 

justoffal

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Russian forces MAY be able to accomplish this but if they do, they will be stained with that blood forever. Russia would be anathema, globally, for decades. They cannot live in this world without trade and interactions between themselves and the rest of the planet so Putin will likely do everything he can to avoid a massacre on the way to achieving his political and military goals.
Russia's entire history is penned in blood....Russian blood.

The US is a close second IMO.

Jo
 

justoffal

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I won't speak to 'war efforts'' but the Ukraine itself cannot be helped absent honesty about the entirety of its predicament.

That's lacking. Almost completely.
The reason for the war is also lacking almost entirely. The mainstream media conveniently ignores 10 years of atrocities being committed in Ukraine against Russian speaking citizens.
 

EvilCat Breath

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Russia is waging total war. It is a war of complete conquest. There will be no insurgency because Putin intends that the will and spirit of the Ukrainian people be broken. If there are any Ukrainians left.
 

justoffal

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But, but, they're white! Surely something can be done about this debacle.
Nobody gives a shit about their skin color...hell Russia and Ukraine are the exact same Gene pool for crying out loud....
 

justoffal

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justoffal

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But, but, they're white! Surely something can be done about this debacle.
Ukrainians see Black people as low functioning animals by the way....were I you I would avoid this issue.....its not in your best interest.
Blacks do better in Russia Proper despite being looked down on there too....but Ukrainians specifically do NOT LIKE BLACK people....
not even sure why to tell you the truth....I don't think they know either.

JO
 

MarcATL

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Ukrainians see Black people as low functioning animals by the way....were I you I would avoid this issue.....its not in your best interest.
Blacks do better in Russia Proper despite being looked down on there too....but Ukrainians specifically do NOT LIKE BLACK people....
not even sure why to tell you the truth....I don't think they know either.

JO
Why do you think it's not in my best interest exactly?
 

MarcATL

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Nobody gives a shit about their skin color...hell Russia and Ukraine are the exact same Gene pool for crying out loud....

Ukrainians see Black people as low functioning animals by the way....were I you I would avoid this issue.....its not in your best interest.
Blacks do better in Russia Proper despite being looked down on there too....but Ukrainians specifically do NOT LIKE BLACK people....
not even sure why to tell you the truth....I don't think they know either.

JO
lol

#LOLGOP #TooFunny #CLASSIC
 

Ringo

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A neo-nazi march was canceled in Latvia this year.
On March 16, there will be no procession in honor of the Waffen SS legionnaires in the capital of Latvia. The decision on this was made by the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Do they know or feel something?
This is the right measure, because denazification is not only necessary in Ukraine...
 

MarcATL

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A neo-nazi march was canceled in Latvia this year.
On March 16, there will be no procession in honor of the Waffen SS legionnaires in the capital of Latvia. The decision on this was made by the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Do they know or feel something?
This is the right measure, because denazification is not only necessary in Ukraine...
And the "Unite The Right Rally" held by national neo-Nazis on US soil not only was allowed to go-on, but was supported by the then-President, and his legion of fans and supporters, of which I count you among them.

So which country should invade us and regulate our neo-Nazi problem?
 

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