How about another Mandate? (A solutions thread)

[montelatici]

The converted Zionist Jews from Europe got the British to support the colonization of Palestine at the expense of the native people. It is stolen land. Thankfully, the colonist's descendants will lose demographically and eventually there will be a South African or Rhodesian solution. The behavior of the Israelis that practice Judaism points to a Rhodesian solution. I would prefer the establishment of a secular state with equality for those that practice any religion, but the Israelis that practice Judaism seem to want to maintain their rule over the non-Jews.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

No part of Israel is on "stolen" land. Why? Because the sovereignty over the land was dissolved. There was an absence of sovereignty. In other words, there was no one who held sovereignty for the land to be stolen from.

The sovereignty since then has been disputed between two peoples, both with compelling arguments for their claim.

Who dissolved Palestinian sovereignty?

 

[Shusha]

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

No part of Israel is on "stolen" land. Why? Because the sovereignty over the land was dissolved. There was an absence of sovereignty. In other words, there was no one who held sovereignty for the land to be stolen from.

The sovereignty since then has been disputed between two peoples, both with compelling arguments for their claim.

Who dissolved Palestinian sovereignty?

Ottoman sovereignty was dissolved. There has been no other sovereignty since except Israeli sovereignty.

There has never been any Arab Palestinian sovereignty.

 

[Coyote]

I don't have a problem with self defense. How is bombing a bus full of children self defense? Driving a car into a crowd of people.

The Palestinians have the right to self defense and so do the Israelis. Would you agree?

As to what they keep and what is "stolen"....while it is true much property was taken under absentee landowner laws, it's also true that jIn cases where property was illegally taken, it should be addressed. And, in those cases perhaps it can be handled in much the same way that looted Jewish property, by the Nazis was and the descendants should have some rights there.

Other than that, Israel has a right to keep its state, and the occupied territories can be settled through landswaps and negotiation.

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

Link to what? Your question is too broad.

What do you consider broad? I thought I was concise.

Not really. What part is not on stolen land? Ok, the parts that were purchased, or already belonged to Jews.

Private property purchases do not remove land from a country.

No, but there were no established nations at the time, just a lot of fighting for self determination.

 

[Coyote]

They are doing their most, and always have, to deny Jerusalem as the ancient capital of the Jewish People.

The Jordanians did not ethnically cleanse TransJordan and Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem from 1925 to 1948 because Arabs/Muslims like them want to co-exist with the Jews.

The Jordanians are not continuing their war against any Jewish rights in Jerusalem and the Temple Mount because they want to respect the Peace treaty which was signed.

All other Muslim countries are not revving up their attacks on Israel and Jews all over the world because they are capable of accepting the Jewish right to be sovereign over their ancient homeland.

The Muslims got 80% of the original Mandate for Palestine due to British dishonor and Muslim feeling of supremacy over the Jewish People with their endless attacks on mostly unarmed Jewish civilians.

I must say that I do cringe when a new thread about "solutions" is started.

What is the solution to the endless and constant Christian and Muslim education about destroying Israel in the Muslim and Christians countries?

How and when is UNWRA going to be dissolved so that any form of normalcy can return to the word refugee. And many of us are descendants of those who were actually refugees from the German or Arab war against the Jews which took place before or after WWII.

What is the solution to the endless teachings of hatred in Muslim and even Christian schools, etc which perpetuates the impossibility of a real solution to the issue, short of the destruction of Israel and turning Jews into what they have been forced to be for the past 2000 years thanks to 2 PEOPLE.

2 People are responsible for the "religious" hatred of Jews to all eternity. And that is the main contributor for this "conflict" never ending.....

That is .......not until Israel is destroyed and Jews are put BACK in their place.

Anyone has any ideas on how to turn the UN and UNESCO back into what they were before the PLO was founded?

What is the solution to all of these-hate-the-Jews groups which seem to make it impossible for any Moderate Arab/Muslim to be able to really make peace with Israel.

Jordan and Egypt's peace treaties hang by a thread, with endless groups within those two countries continuing their attacks on Israel and the Jews.

As we know, Saudi Arabia and Iran are very much responsible for much of the hatred and attacks against Israel and Jews all over the world, whether they hate each other or not.


Uprooting hatred for Jews has to be the FIRST SOLUTION in order to solving any of this.

Without it............

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It is fundamentally an ideological problem and needs an ideological solution. How do you change some of the deepest and most strongly held beliefs that people hold? And what do you do with those who hold those fundamentally harmful beliefs in the mean time.

Can a Mandate Power be utilized to change the ideology of the Palestinians over time (probably generations) with supervised education?

The problem with a "supervised" education is who determines the content? It is frequently pointed out that Palestinian textbooks don't reference the existence of Israel, or negatively portray Jews, but just as pertinent is how Israeli textbooks portray Palestinians.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2013/02/israeli-and-palestinian-textbooks

I think a supervised education would become indoctrination and a means of denying a people their own history in favor of the history of the victors.

I think, and yes this is pie in the sky thinking, it would be far better to encourage cooperative endeavors such as educational exchanges of children and teachers.

 

[Coyote]

Many religions share claims on the same sites.

Many? Examples? (Preferrably many examples).

There is considerable overlap with the three Abrahamic faiths on holy sites.

 

[Coyote]

No part of Israel is on "stolen" land. Why? Because the sovereignty over the land was dissolved. There was an absence of sovereignty. In other words, there was no one who held sovereignty for the land to be stolen from.

BS, PEOPLE LIVED THERE!

The sovereignty since then has been disputed between two peoples, both with compelling arguments for their claim.

THE JEWS HAVE NO, NADA, ZILCH, NOT EVEN ONE COMPELLING ARGUMENT OTHER THAN "might is right."

Yes people lived there, including Jews....

 

[louie888]

No part of Israel is on "stolen" land. Why? Because the sovereignty over the land was dissolved. There was an absence of sovereignty. In other words, there was no one who held sovereignty for the land to be stolen from.

BS, PEOPLE LIVED THERE!

The sovereignty since then has been disputed between two peoples, both with compelling arguments for their claim.

THE JEWS HAVE NO, NADA, ZILCH, NOT EVEN ONE COMPELLING ARGUMENT OTHER THAN "might is right."

Yes people lived there, including Jews....

A handful, and these are not the jews creating the madness today. They came from Europe.

 

[Coyote]

The converted Zionist Jews from Europe got the British to support the colonization of Palestine at the expense of the native people. It is stolen land. Thankfully, the colonist's descendants will lose demographically and eventually there will be a South African or Rhodesian solution. The behavior of the Israelis that practice Judaism points to a Rhodesian solution. I would prefer the establishment of a secular state with equality for those that practice any religion, but the Israelis that practice Judaism seem to want to maintain their rule over the non-Jews.

Actually there is a lot of religious freedom...especially for the ME where there is typically almost none. Why do you hate Jews so much?

 

[Shusha]

There is considerable overlap with the three Abrahamic faiths on holy sites.

This is what I thought you were going to say. It is not a common thing at ALL for religions to usurp other religion's holy places. So let's be honest about what this is.

(Christianity and) Islam usurped another faith's myths, stories, scripture, history, monuments and holy places. It replaced and overwrote and fundamentally dismissed another faith to the extent that the UN (representing the international community) rejects the original ownership of these stories and history and places. To the extent that the UN (representing the international community) gives precedence of these places, and dominance over them to the usurpers, as though the usurpers have EQUAL claim to those places they have usurped.

It is the height of absurdity. As though the British should have rights to claim Canada's First Nations holy places because, well, they stole it a really long time ago, so....

 

[Coyote]

There is considerable overlap with the three Abrahamic faiths on holy sites.

This is what I thought you were going to say. It is not a common thing at ALL for religions to usurp other religion's holy places. So let's be honest about what this is.

(Christianity and) Islam usurped another faith's myths, stories, scripture, history, monuments and holy places. It replaced and overwrote and fundamentally dismissed another faith to the extent that the UN (representing the international community) rejects the original ownership of these stories and history and places. To the extent that the UN (representing the international community) gives precedence of these places, and dominance over them to the usurpers, as though the usurpers have EQUAL claim to those places they have usurped.

It is the height of absurdity. As though the British should have rights to claim Canada's First Nations holy places because, well, we stole it a really long time ago, so....

Christians long ago usurped pagan myths and figures working them into their own stories and discounting their origins. They Christianized pagen holy sites. Even earlier, the Romans took on the Greek pantheon and Romanized it. It's not anything new or novel. In fact potions of the Jewish story were taken from an earlier people.

 

[Shusha]

Christians long ago usurped pagan myths and figures working them into their own stories and discounting their origins. They Christianized pagen holy sites. Even earlier, the Romans took on the Greek pantheon and Romanized it. It's not anything new or novel. In fact potions of the Jewish story were taken from an earlier people.

There is a very great deal of difference between incorporating existing mythology into an evolving religion in situ and actively usurping another religion's holy place.

 

[Coyote]

Christians long ago usurped pagan myths and figures working them into their own stories and discounting their origins. They Christianized pagen holy sites. Even earlier, the Romans took on the Greek pantheon and Romanized it. It's not anything new or novel. In fact potions of the Jewish story were taken from an earlier people.

There is a very great deal of difference between incorporating existing mythology into an evolving religion in situ and actively usurping another religion's holy place.

I think we've discussed this in another thread...I don't see the difference. In many cases, usurping the other religion was a deliberate act in order to cement the new religion into the culture it was taking over.

 

[Shusha]

Why are you arguing that it is morally permissible to usurp another faith's holy place?

 

[Coyote]

Christians long ago usurped pagan myths and figures working them into their own stories and discounting their origins. They Christianized pagen holy sites. Even earlier, the Romans took on the Greek pantheon and Romanized it. It's not anything new or novel. In fact potions of the Jewish story were taken from an earlier people.

Why are you arguing that it is morally permissible to usurp another faith's holy place?

I'm not arguing the morality of it at all. It is something that has gone on for centuries that is only now, all of a sudden, an ethical concern.? It seems a bit like the latest outrage, cultural appropriation. The only way I see it as an issue is if it's used to deny a faiths access to its holy sites and that is morally wrong.

 

[Shusha]

Christians long ago usurped pagan myths and figures working them into their own stories and discounting their origins. They Christianized pagen holy sites. Even earlier, the Romans took on the Greek pantheon and Romanized it. It's not anything new or novel. In fact potions of the Jewish story were taken from an earlier people.

Why are you arguing that it is morally permissible to usurp another faith's holy place?

I'm not arguing the morality of it at all. It is something that has gone on for centuries that is only now, all of a sudden, an ethical concern.? It seems a bit like the latest outrage, cultural appropriation. The only way I see it as an issue is if it's used to deny a faiths access to its holy sites and that is morally wrong.

Racism has gone on for centuries and is now an ethical concern. Misogyny. Slavery. Homophobia. Rape. A dozen other social justice issues.

And it IS being used, on a global stage, to deny Jewish existence, identity, access and history.

 

[Coyote]

Christians long ago usurped pagan myths and figures working them into their own stories and discounting their origins. They Christianized pagen holy sites. Even earlier, the Romans took on the Greek pantheon and Romanized it. It's not anything new or novel. In fact potions of the Jewish story were taken from an earlier people.

Why are you arguing that it is morally permissible to usurp another faith's holy place?

I'm not arguing the morality of it at all. It is something that has gone on for centuries that is only now, all of a sudden, an ethical concern.? It seems a bit like the latest outrage, cultural appropriation. The only way I see it as an issue is if it's used to deny a faiths access to its holy sites and that is morally wrong.

Racism has gone on for centuries and is now an ethical concern. Misogyny. Slavery. Homophobia. Rape. A dozen other social justice issues.

And it IS being used, on a global stage, to deny Jewish existence, identity, access and history.

The problem I have with that is the same I have with cultural appropriation...where do you draw lines?

When does the normal evolution of religion, music, cuisine become something bad and can any one group hold the patent on faith or ideas or musical tradition?

 

[Shusha]

The problem I have with that is the same I have with cultural appropriation...where do you draw lines?

When does the normal evolution of religion, music, cuisine become something bad and can any one group hold the patent on faith or ideas or musical tradition?

You draw the lines at stealing. Its like copyright, yes? I can write a story about a little green man with big ears and a staff. But the second I call him Yoda and give him a remarkable speech pattern and put him in a story about Luke Skywalker -- I'm stealing.

Islam is not an "evolution" of Judaism. Islam is not at all related to Judaism.

 

[theliq]

Christians long ago usurped pagan myths and figures working them into their own stories and discounting their origins. They Christianized pagen holy sites. Even earlier, the Romans took on the Greek pantheon and Romanized it. It's not anything new or novel. In fact potions of the Jewish story were taken from an earlier people.

There is a very great deal of difference between incorporating existing mythology into an evolving religion in situ and actively usurping another religion's holy place.

huh

Christians long ago usurped pagan myths and figures working them into their own stories and discounting their origins. They Christianized pagen holy sites. Even earlier, the Romans took on the Greek pantheon and Romanized it. It's not anything new or novel. In fact potions of the Jewish story were taken from an earlier people.

There is a very great deal of difference between incorporating existing mythology into an evolving religion in situ and actively usurping another religion's holy place.

I think we've discussed this in another thread...I don't see the difference. In many cases, usurping the other religion was a deliberate act in order to cement the new religion into the culture it was taking over.

Just as the classic"golden ratio"can aid an artist in the composition of a painting,there is,we are told,a mathematical basis for a beautiful face,A sort of algorithm,to use that accursed term,wired into our (un)conscious that recognising a preordained sense of proportion,triggers a pleasurable response.I've long thought beauty is more complex than maths.And Ugliness???Death.

This life/death/beauty/ugly argument works well with symbols.The Hindu swastika,an elegant symbol of eternity,becomes horrific when appropriated by Nazism,arguably the most Death-obsessed ideology in human history.

And the Christian Cross??a symbol of one of the Romans most Sadistic forms of Execution,adopted by a New Faith that believed Death had been conquered by its Messiah,thus morphing from horror to hope.However,both symbols"cross and swastika"become blurred by the undeniable fact of Christian complicity in the Holocaust...deriving from thousands of years of Christian anti-Semitism in particular German anti Semitism(just read your Martin Luther)Thus my description of the swastika as "the crucifix in jackboots"

Then we have the Zionist purge against the Palestinians,one Ugly,one Beauty...the Paradox is that The Ugliness of Death creates the Beauty of bravery in those that defy it,as in the case of the Palestinians.

Israel today is surrounded by the consequences of an attempted Extermination Policy,it can never be Beauty because of the Ugliness of the Deaths and Stolen Land they willingly created against the Palestinians...Beauty in a human or an ideal has depth....But so to has the Ugliness of the Zionists HATRED.

The Star of David has become blurred and compromised by the complicity of Zionists in their Anti-Semitism and attempted Extermination towards the Semitic Palestinians......Zionism is an Ugly Face,Indeed,and will always be.......That is NO MYTH but FACT........steve

 

[P F Tinmore]

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

Link to what? Your question is too broad.

What do you consider broad? I thought I was concise.

Not really. What part is not on stolen land? Ok, the parts that were purchased, or already belonged to Jews.

Private property purchases do not remove land from a country.

No, but there were no established nations at the time, just a lot of fighting for self determination.

OK, but there is a specific timeline and series of events creating Palestine and all the other new states in the region.

• The region was under Turkish control.
• Predicting that they would win the war, the allied powers divided the territory into different states. The territories of the new states were defined by international borders.
• Turkey ceded the land to each new state in the Treaty of Lausanne.
• The inhabitants of each new state became citizens in their respective states.

As citizens in their new states, they had the inalienable right:

• To self determination without external interference.
• To independence and sovereignty.
• To territorial integrity.

All of these rights were violated by the creation of Israel in Palestine.

Subsequent UN resolutions affirm these pre existing rights of the Palestinians in Palestine.