How about another Mandate? (A solutions thread)

[P F Tinmore]

I have.

I don't recall you arguing page after page with them about it.

I have. Over Op Cast Lead, the unjust juvenile justice system, inequity in how the law is applied between OPalestinians and Jews and on collective punishment.

It is true that you do not shill for Israel like many posters. However, you do have a problem with Palestinian self defense and you do tend to allow Israel to keep everything it has stolen.

I don't have a problem with self defense. How is bombing a bus full of children self defense? Driving a car into a crowd of people.

The Palestinians have the right to self defense and so do the Israelis. Would you agree?

As to what they keep and what is "stolen"....while it is true much property was taken under absentee landowner laws, it's also true that jIn cases where property was illegally taken, it should be addressed. And, in those cases perhaps it can be handled in much the same way that looted Jewish property, by the Nazis was and the descendants should have some rights there.

Other than that, Israel has a right to keep its state, and the occupied territories can be settled through landswaps and negotiation.

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

 

[Coyote]

I have.

You are a little soft on this issue with respect Coy,maybe this may help you.

1947..The Zionist policy of Ethnically Cleansing the Palestinians was fervently persued at this time,by the Criminal Zionist Terrorist Groups..Hagan...Irgun and Qiryati...who later morphed into the Israeli Army(I.D.F)...with a desire to complete this WAR CRIME by March 1948.


This you will note was before the STATE OF ISRAEL WAS PROCLAIMED


Once the decision was taken,it took six months to complete the mission.When it was over,more than half of Palestine's native population,close to 800,000 Palestinians had been SLAUGHTERED,UPROOTED AND BRUTALIZED...531 Villages had been destroyed and razed AND ALL INHABITANTS,murdered or expelled to other Countries.to Refugee Camps,where some and their decendents still are..This Ethnic Cleansing is regarded under International Law,as a WAR CRIME.

Coy,I could go on but others have a greater knowledge than I,....Suggested reading.....Any thing by Benny Morris,Jewish Authority on the Massacres on the Palestinians.

Michael Palumbo's excellent "The Palestinian Catastrophe"published 1987....with introduction by the Israeli Prime Minister at the time Yitzhak Rabin.

Dan Kurzman's "Genesis"published in 1970 and again in 1992

Ilan Pappe's outstanding book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" published 2006,and reprinted 4 times in 2007

Note several Heads of the Hagana and Irgan became Prime Ministers of Israel..Begin being the most notable

The Zionists have tried to sweep this Slaughter under the carpet by DENIAL,much like the DENIAL of having Nuclear Capability, Weapons etc., which they have had since Illegally obtaining them in the early 1960's.

The Irony on this board is the way,Zionist Inspired and Zionists to try to make out that the victims(The Palestinians) are the Terrorists......Well what else could the Synthetic Zionists say..but too some Christians on here do the same...Hopefully when they meet their maker...they will be banished into the caldrons of Hell.

Israel was determined by VIOLENT TERRORISTS,WHO STOLE LAND TO CREATE A COUNTRY FOR SYNTHETIC ZIONIST JEWS,WHO WERE NOT JEWS AT ALL,MERELY CONVERTS TO THE FAITH....AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PALESTINIANS AND PEOPLE WORLDWIDE....FAUX WEEPING ABOUT HOW THEY WERE TREATED.......YET INCREDIBLY DID THE SAME TO THE PALESTINIANS....Real Jews and Secular Jews Detest Zionists and like me for Good Reason...steve....

I've read Bennie Morris and am familiar with much of the history, especially where it shows the holes in the "official" narrative. And I've argued in behalf of that historical dishonesty. Ask anyone here who is pro Israeli

But I'm looking at now, 70 years later. None of those players are alive. What you have NOW is a thriving society in Israel, a stunted society in Palestine, and thousands of stateless people with no rights residing in multi generational refugee camps.

What can be done with TODAY's situation to bring about peace, not further destruction, and give the Palestinians a future that does NOT involve the destruction of a people?

 

[Coyote]

I have.

I don't recall you arguing page after page with them about it.

I have. Over Op Cast Lead, the unjust juvenile justice system, inequity in how the law is applied between OPalestinians and Jews and on collective punishment.

It is true that you do not shill for Israel like many posters. However, you do have a problem with Palestinian self defense and you do tend to allow Israel to keep everything it has stolen.

I don't have a problem with self defense. How is bombing a bus full of children self defense? Driving a car into a crowd of people.

The Palestinians have the right to self defense and so do the Israelis. Would you agree?

As to what they keep and what is "stolen"....while it is true much property was taken under absentee landowner laws, it's also true that jIn cases where property was illegally taken, it should be addressed. And, in those cases perhaps it can be handled in much the same way that looted Jewish property, by the Nazis was and the descendants should have some rights there.

Other than that, Israel has a right to keep its state, and the occupied territories can be settled through landswaps and negotiation.

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

Link to what? Your question is too broad.

 

[Coyote]

Exactly what is the solution to this kind of thinking and behavior to bring an end to the conflict?

Palestinians falsely claim Hebron is "fourth holiest site in Islam" ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

How is another "Mandate" going to stop the Muslims from continuing to appropriate everything that is Jewish.

Something, by the way, they never did before Israel became sovereign.

How would a new " Mandate " stop the Muslims from their attempt to steal all things Jewish?

So what? Religions build upon earlier faiths all the time (or as you say, steal), even Judaism. Many religions share claims on the same sites. It will have to be worked out.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I don't recall you arguing page after page with them about it.

I have. Over Op Cast Lead, the unjust juvenile justice system, inequity in how the law is applied between OPalestinians and Jews and on collective punishment.

It is true that you do not shill for Israel like many posters. However, you do have a problem with Palestinian self defense and you do tend to allow Israel to keep everything it has stolen.

I don't have a problem with self defense. How is bombing a bus full of children self defense? Driving a car into a crowd of people.

The Palestinians have the right to self defense and so do the Israelis. Would you agree?

As to what they keep and what is "stolen"....while it is true much property was taken under absentee landowner laws, it's also true that jIn cases where property was illegally taken, it should be addressed. And, in those cases perhaps it can be handled in much the same way that looted Jewish property, by the Nazis was and the descendants should have some rights there.

Other than that, Israel has a right to keep its state, and the occupied territories can be settled through landswaps and negotiation.

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

Link to what? Your question is too broad.

What do you consider broad? I thought I was concise.

 

[Coyote]

By the same token, Israel needs to withdraw from ALL occupied territory, annexed or otherwise, and stop the building of settlements!

Place Jerusalem under corpus separatum... Not a very popular solution for Israel for sure....

I think we largely agree (except for Jerusalem, which must stay under Israeli sovereignty). The problem is in defining "all occupied territory". According to Arab Palestinians, and certainly their governments in both Gaza and the West Bank, that means Israel must withdraw from ALL of the territory. That is what fundamentally needs to shift in terms of ideology, as I noted. The question is HOW to accomplish that ideological shift. In particular, the question is how Israel, the international community, and now (finally) some of the Arab countries can accomplish that from the outside.

Even if we define "all occupied territory" as the Green Line, we need to define what that means. Do you mean that land swaps are off the table? Do you mean that every single Jewish person must be removed from that side of the Green Line? Do you mean that the Jewish people can stay, but must renounce their Israeli citizenship and become Palestinians? How do we define a "settlement"? Are we discussing only Jewish settlements? Or must Arab settlements on the table for discussion as well? Must all settlements be dismantled or can they be incorporated into the new states?

We also need to discuss what it means to "withdraw". Does that mean we create an international border between two independent states, with all the standard features of an international border? Does that mean that neither side has on-going obligations to the other -- in terms of provision of services? What happens if there are further incidents of belligerency on either side? What would be the consequences of those acts?

It would be helpful for me for you to define your terms.



The basis for a two state solution is the Green Line with land swaps. Everyone knows this and has known it for decades.

1. Israel unilaterally decides what she is keeping and what she is willing to part with and withdraws accordingly.

2. Israel maintains the status quo.

3. Israel does whatever she wants until the Arab Palestinians get their shit together, shifts their own ideology and hammers out a peace treaty.

So, when you say Israel must withdraw from ALL occupied territory, you seem to be supporting option #1. (And frankly, I tend to lean that direction myself.) But there are some big ass problems with #1. Witness what happened with Gaza. The Arab Palestinians in that situation feel that they are being acted upon rather than having agency. They feel like Israel is still doing things TO them. Rather than shifting their ideology, it cements it. And this gives support to the more extreme ideology.

Part of the purpose of proposing a Mandate is to give Arab Palestinians a voice and a choice along a very specific pathway. Its a mentorship which brings them up, rather than perpetuating their sense of victimhood (being acted upon).

By the same token, Israel needs to withdraw from ALL occupied territory, annexed or otherwise, and stop the building of settlements!

Place Jerusalem under corpus separatum... Not a very popular solution for Israel for sure....

I think we largely agree (except for Jerusalem, which must stay under Israeli sovereignty). The problem is in defining "all occupied territory". According to Arab Palestinians, and certainly their governments in both Gaza and the West Bank, that means Israel must withdraw from ALL of the territory. That is what fundamentally needs to shift in terms of ideology, as I noted. The question is HOW to accomplish that ideological shift. In particular, the question is how Israel, the international community, and now (finally) some of the Arab countries can accomplish that from the outside.

Even if we define "all occupied territory" as the Green Line, we need to define what that means. Do you mean that land swaps are off the table? Do you mean that every single Jewish person must be removed from that side of the Green Line? Do you mean that the Jewish people can stay, but must renounce their Israeli citizenship and become Palestinians? How do we define a "settlement"? Are we discussing only Jewish settlements? Or must Arab settlements on the table for discussion as well? Must all settlements be dismantled or can they be incorporated into the new states?

We also need to discuss what it means to "withdraw". Does that mean we create an international border between two independent states, with all the standard features of an international border? Does that mean that neither side has on-going obligations to the other -- in terms of provision of services? What happens if there are further incidents of belligerency on either side? What would be the consequences of those acts?

It would be helpful for me for you to define your terms.

The basis for a two state solution is the Green Line with land swaps. Everyone knows this and has known it for decades.

1. Israel unilaterally decides what she is keeping and what she is willing to part with and withdraws accordingly.

2. Israel maintains the status quo.

3. Israel does whatever she wants until the Arab Palestinians get their shit together, shifts their own ideology and hammers out a peace treaty.

So, when you say Israel must withdraw from ALL occupied territory, you seem to be supporting option #1. (And frankly, I tend to lean that direction myself.) But there are some big ass problems with #1. Witness what happened with Gaza. The Arab Palestinians in that situation feel that they are being acted upon rather than having agency. They feel like Israel is still doing things TO them. Rather than shifting their ideology, it cements it. And this gives support to the more extreme ideology.

Part of the purpose of proposing a Mandate is to give Arab Palestinians a voice and a choice along a very specific pathway. Its a mentorship which brings them up, rather than perpetuating their sense of victimhood (being acted upon).

I don not think that there is any question that we largely agree... Devil is in the detail...

To try and deal with your comments as made...

Why "must" Jerusalem stay under Israeli sovereignty? Corpus separatum was proposed in the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine... For me, as a non Jew and non Muslim, yet with my 'Christian' upbringing, feel that Jerusalem is WAY more important than to be fought and argued over by multiple religions as to the 'ownership' of such an historic place!

Defining "occupied territory" is not so difficult unless you are Israeli! Then it all get's a little more complicated...

Yeah, clearly I do not agree with the mindset of must withdraw from ALL of the territory... There IS no ideological solution, for either side... However, there does need to be an acceptance that BOTH parties exist, Israel and Palestine, particularly Israel... That would be a good start position...

So, for simplicity, let's define the Green Line as de facto so that I can at least answer your questions...

Land swaps should NEVER be off the table! Come on, there does need to be a sensible approach to negotiating peace!

No, of course not, everyone should have the right to live where they choose... I'm a foreigner in my chosen country... There is no reason for it to be different anywhere... And I haven't "renounced" my home country, so why should Jews choosing to stay in Palestine?

Settlements, Jew or Arab, need to be part of the negotiations, included in land swap negotiations maybe? However, there does need to be a sensible approach to this... Why would you have an isolated settlement, Jewish or Arab, in the middle of a defined state?

"international border between two independent states, with all the standard features of an international border" - Yes of course... If we are looking at a two state solution then there MUST be clear, defined borders...

Both sides have an "obligation" to the other... In terms of respecting those "international borders"... However, my chosen country to live has agreements with its neighbouring country to provide "services" ... I don't see that as being unworkable in this instance either... And I should mention that my chosen country to live is NOT that friendly with its neighbour!

Further incidents need to be dealt with... That is given... However, some caution needs to be taken here... I would like to see, as I have said many times before, that ANY aggression, and I am going to single out rocket attacks from Gaza, should be dealt with by an international force and NOT Israel... Yes, I know, you are going to ask why cannot Israel defend herself... It's hardly EVER going to be a 'fair fight' is it... Gaza's military consists of? So, as has been seen, America and allies are very capable of dealing with 'aggressors' in the ME, let them deal with it.... Israel can then never come under criticism for heavy handed tactics!

Yes, I am with you, mostly, in that option 1 is the better option... Though, I must question why it is ONLY Israel who is deciding what she keeps and what she gives away?

As far as Gaza is concerned, yes, Israel withdrew from Gaza... However, it has never relinquished control of Gaza... That is a fundamental issue in itself... I know, I know, it's Israel "protecting" herself... So, in reality, Gaza is still considered as 'occupied' as it is still significantly controlled by Israel... There can never be the shift in ideology until this stops... And yes, it will simply fuel the extreme ideology until Gaza is no longer under ANY control from Israel...

Any mandate has to be put in place with agreements from across the globe... I would go so far as to say that, if there is even a 80% agreement then it should be 'implemented' with the help of the international community...

And one final thing... There needs to be elections, free, open elections within Gaza and Palestine as soon as possible... Carried out under international controls to ensure that there is a) no falsification of results b) that there are elections EVERY 4 years!

I am willing to give up the West Bank, which is the heartland of Biblical Israel, but not Jerusalem. It is the heart and soul of the Jewish People. Without Jerusalem, there is no point in there being an Israel at all. So much Jewish blood was not spilled so Tel-Aviv could have its nightlife, clubs and beaches.

I can hear my ancestors Cringing at the prospect of abandoning Judea and Samaria forever.

The Arabs are not making these much noise because they want only Judea and Samaria as a trophy against their hated Jews.
They are doing their most, and always have, to deny Jerusalem as the ancient capital of the Jewish People.

The Jordanians did not ethnically cleanse TransJordan and Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem from 1925 to 1948 because Arabs/Muslims like them want to co-exist with the Jews.

The Jordanians are not continuing their war against any Jewish rights in Jerusalem and the Temple Mount because they want to respect the Peace treaty which was signed.

All other Muslim countries are not revving up their attacks on Israel and Jews all over the world because they are capable of accepting the Jewish right to be sovereign over their ancient homeland.

The Muslims got 80% of the original Mandate for Palestine due to British dishonor and Muslim feeling of supremacy over the Jewish People with their endless attacks on mostly unarmed Jewish civilians.

I must say that I do cringe when a new thread about "solutions" is started.

What is the solution to the endless and constant Christian and Muslim education about destroying Israel in the Muslim and Christians countries?

How and when is UNWRA going to be dissolved so that any form of normalcy can return to the word refugee. And many of us are descendants of those who were actually refugees from the German or Arab war against the Jews which took place before or after WWII.

What is the solution to the endless teachings of hatred in Muslim and even Christian schools, etc which perpetuates the impossibility of a real solution to the issue, short of the destruction of Israel and turning Jews into what they have been forced to be for the past 2000 years thanks to 2 PEOPLE.

2 People are responsible for the "religious" hatred of Jews to all eternity. And that is the main contributor for this "conflict" never ending.....

That is .......not until Israel is destroyed and Jews are put BACK in their place.

Anyone has any ideas on how to turn the UN and UNESCO back into what they were before the PLO was founded?

What is the solution to all of these-hate-the-Jews groups which seem to make it impossible for any Moderate Arab/Muslim to be able to really make peace with Israel.

Jordan and Egypt's peace treaties hang by a thread, with endless groups within those two countries continuing their attacks on Israel and the Jews.

As we know, Saudi Arabia and Iran are very much responsible for much of the hatred and attacks against Israel and Jews all over the world, whether they hate each other or not.


Uprooting hatred for Jews has to be the FIRST SOLUTION in order to solving any of this.

Without it............

Your last sentence...is not a readily fixable problem, it's historically and culturally entrenched in too many places. I think it's better to tackle smaller issues first. Like the Palestinians which provide fuel for some of the antisemitism.

 

[Coyote]

I have. Over Op Cast Lead, the unjust juvenile justice system, inequity in how the law is applied between OPalestinians and Jews and on collective punishment.

It is true that you do not shill for Israel like many posters. However, you do have a problem with Palestinian self defense and you do tend to allow Israel to keep everything it has stolen.

I don't have a problem with self defense. How is bombing a bus full of children self defense? Driving a car into a crowd of people.

The Palestinians have the right to self defense and so do the Israelis. Would you agree?

As to what they keep and what is "stolen"....while it is true much property was taken under absentee landowner laws, it's also true that jIn cases where property was illegally taken, it should be addressed. And, in those cases perhaps it can be handled in much the same way that looted Jewish property, by the Nazis was and the descendants should have some rights there.

Other than that, Israel has a right to keep its state, and the occupied territories can be settled through landswaps and negotiation.

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

Link to what? Your question is too broad.

What do you consider broad? I thought I was concise.

Not really. What part is not on stolen land? Ok, the parts that were purchased, or already belonged to Jews.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It is true that you do not shill for Israel like many posters. However, you do have a problem with Palestinian self defense and you do tend to allow Israel to keep everything it has stolen.

I don't have a problem with self defense. How is bombing a bus full of children self defense? Driving a car into a crowd of people.

The Palestinians have the right to self defense and so do the Israelis. Would you agree?

As to what they keep and what is "stolen"....while it is true much property was taken under absentee landowner laws, it's also true that jIn cases where property was illegally taken, it should be addressed. And, in those cases perhaps it can be handled in much the same way that looted Jewish property, by the Nazis was and the descendants should have some rights there.

Other than that, Israel has a right to keep its state, and the occupied territories can be settled through landswaps and negotiation.

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

Link to what? Your question is too broad.

What do you consider broad? I thought I was concise.

Not really. What part is not on stolen land? Ok, the parts that were purchased, or already belonged to Jews.

Private property purchases do not remove land from a country.

 

[Hollie]

I don't have a problem with self defense. How is bombing a bus full of children self defense? Driving a car into a crowd of people.

The Palestinians have the right to self defense and so do the Israelis. Would you agree?

As to what they keep and what is "stolen"....while it is true much property was taken under absentee landowner laws, it's also true that jIn cases where property was illegally taken, it should be addressed. And, in those cases perhaps it can be handled in much the same way that looted Jewish property, by the Nazis was and the descendants should have some rights there.

Other than that, Israel has a right to keep its state, and the occupied territories can be settled through landswaps and negotiation.

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

Link to what? Your question is too broad.

What do you consider broad? I thought I was concise.

Not really. What part is not on stolen land? Ok, the parts that were purchased, or already belonged to Jews.

Private property purchases do not remove land from a country.

The "country of Pal'istan"?

 

[Shusha]

Why "must" Jerusalem stay under Israeli sovereignty? Corpus separatum was proposed in the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine... For me, as a non Jew and non Muslim, yet with my 'Christian' upbringing, feel that Jerusalem is WAY more important than to be fought and argued over by multiple religions as to the 'ownership' of such an historic place!

Aside from what every Jewish person will tell you about the importance of Jerusalem as the heart of Jewish life. And aside from the fact that any "ownership" that either the Christian or the Muslim people have over the city was usurped from its indigenous (original) owners and therefore fundamentally invalid. Aside from those things....

The international community has utterly failed the Jewish people in preserving and protecting Jewish history. The international community has utterly failed the Jewish people in standing up for Jewish rights to the city of Jerusalem and the Holy Place there, as well as other Jewish holy places. The international community has utterly failed the Jewish people in respecting the long history in that land as the indigenous (pre-invasion) peoples.

Further, the international community is not just failing. The international community is actively participating, through the UN and UNESCO and UNHRC, in the disconnection of the Jewish people from Jewish historical territory, and Jewish monuments. They are actively participating in the erasure of the Jewish people and their history. They are actively participating in the demonization of the Jewish people, using an absolutely unacceptable different standard which applies only to the Jewish people.

And further, the Jewish people have shown a remarkable commitment -- not just tolerance, commitment -- to ensuring access for everyone to places which are Holy to a diverse group of people. The Jewish people have maintained this commitment despite active, on-going, physical and psychological violence committed by Muslims IN those very Holy Places and TO those Holy Places. And further, the Jewish people have even restricted their OWN religious freedom in order to ensure Muslim dominance in a place that belongs to and was stolen from the Jewish people.

And THAT is the real reason why Israel must have sovereignty over Jerusalem. Only the Jewish people have demonstrated the ability to be caretaker to that place.

 

[Shusha]

Defining "occupied territory" is not so difficult unless you are Israeli! Then it all get's a little more complicated...

There are three basic definitions of "occupied territory". The Arab Palestinians and there supporters will say its ALL occupied. The international community will say that the Green Line is an actual border (patently false, but has entered global consciousness in such a vehement and stubborn way, its hard to convince people that it is patently false.) And Israel will say that much of the territory is disputed until a peace treaty is hammered out. Shrug. Anyone who claims that defining "occupied territory" is easy is not paying attention.

Yeah, clearly I do not agree with the mindset of must withdraw from ALL of the territory...

Interesting, because that was exactly how you wrote your demand in the previous post:

By the same token, Israel needs to withdraw from ALL occupied territory, annexed or otherwise, and stop the building of settlements!

So, if I understand your post correctly, you have softened considerably from this approach. The rest of your post appears to me to be quite balanced and I mostly can't find fault with it. If I may sum up?

There should be two states and mutual acceptance and recognition. There should be an international border between states. Neither state is obligated to provide services to the other, though mutual agreements (water in particular) would benefit both parties. Belligerent activity needs to be adequately addressed, including with military action (but possibly not by Israel -- interesting solution. It is a RADICAL shift from accepted international law and practice. Double standard for Israel?!) Ethnic cleansing is to be avoided. People should be permitted to choose their nationality and residence. Land swaps are a no-brainer. Settlements (both Jewish and Arab) need to be part of the negotiations. There should be free, internationally supervised elections in places where there are not currently.

These are all points of agreement between us. I do find it interesting (and refreshing) that you take the time to respond. I think it goes a long way to helping me understand your point of view. I think you sometimes post "sound bytes" that don't reflect the true depths of your understanding of the conflict and its potential solutions. Perhaps I do as well.

Points of disagreement, clarification and further discussion:

Though, I must question why it is ONLY Israel who is deciding what she keeps and what she gives away?

This is directly related to the initial post you made demanding Israel end the occupation and remove all settlements. In order to do that there has to be some sort of definition of what that means. If there is no negotiation and treaty about what that means, and yet you demand Israel perform this action unilaterally, then Israel has to make that decision unilaterally.

As far as Gaza is concerned, yes, Israel withdrew from Gaza... However, it has never relinquished control of Gaza... That is a fundamental issue in itself... I know, I know, it's Israel "protecting" herself... So, in reality, Gaza is still considered as 'occupied' as it is still significantly controlled by Israel... There can never be the shift in ideology until this stops... And yes, it will simply fuel the extreme ideology until Gaza is no longer under ANY control from Israel...

Sure. I don't entirely agree with this, but let's focus on solutions. How do we move forward here?

Do we agree that the fundamental problem is the ideology which Hamas (and Gazans) holds that Israel must not have any sovereignty over any part of the territory? How do we solve this fundamental problem?

What should Israel be doing on a practical level? Let's say Israel chooses to give full control to Gaza. In my world, that means Israel views the border as an international border. That means Israel has the right to restrict entry into its nation as it sees fit. That means Israel has no obligation to provide medical care to foreigners. Nor electricity, water, security or anything else. Nor trade agreements. (Though she can choose to do so). That also means Israel has no right to restrict movement of people or trade through sea, air or other land crossings.

I have no problem with this. This is actually, in fact, the GOAL here.

BUT...here's the problem. Let's say this all comes about. And let's say Gazans use this opportunity to import weapons and attack Israel. (I think this is likely in the extreme.) What do you think would be a permissible response from Israel, in this case?

 

[Shusha]

They are doing their most, and always have, to deny Jerusalem as the ancient capital of the Jewish People.

The Jordanians did not ethnically cleanse TransJordan and Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem from 1925 to 1948 because Arabs/Muslims like them want to co-exist with the Jews.

The Jordanians are not continuing their war against any Jewish rights in Jerusalem and the Temple Mount because they want to respect the Peace treaty which was signed.

All other Muslim countries are not revving up their attacks on Israel and Jews all over the world because they are capable of accepting the Jewish right to be sovereign over their ancient homeland.

The Muslims got 80% of the original Mandate for Palestine due to British dishonor and Muslim feeling of supremacy over the Jewish People with their endless attacks on mostly unarmed Jewish civilians.

I must say that I do cringe when a new thread about "solutions" is started.

What is the solution to the endless and constant Christian and Muslim education about destroying Israel in the Muslim and Christians countries?

How and when is UNWRA going to be dissolved so that any form of normalcy can return to the word refugee. And many of us are descendants of those who were actually refugees from the German or Arab war against the Jews which took place before or after WWII.

What is the solution to the endless teachings of hatred in Muslim and even Christian schools, etc which perpetuates the impossibility of a real solution to the issue, short of the destruction of Israel and turning Jews into what they have been forced to be for the past 2000 years thanks to 2 PEOPLE.

2 People are responsible for the "religious" hatred of Jews to all eternity. And that is the main contributor for this "conflict" never ending.....

That is .......not until Israel is destroyed and Jews are put BACK in their place.

Anyone has any ideas on how to turn the UN and UNESCO back into what they were before the PLO was founded?

What is the solution to all of these-hate-the-Jews groups which seem to make it impossible for any Moderate Arab/Muslim to be able to really make peace with Israel.

Jordan and Egypt's peace treaties hang by a thread, with endless groups within those two countries continuing their attacks on Israel and the Jews.

As we know, Saudi Arabia and Iran are very much responsible for much of the hatred and attacks against Israel and Jews all over the world, whether they hate each other or not.


Uprooting hatred for Jews has to be the FIRST SOLUTION in order to solving any of this.

Without it............

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It is fundamentally an ideological problem and needs an ideological solution. How do you change some of the deepest and most strongly held beliefs that people hold? And what do you do with those who hold those fundamentally harmful beliefs in the mean time.

Can a Mandate Power be utilized to change the ideology of the Palestinians over time (probably generations) with supervised education?

 

[Shusha]

Many religions share claims on the same sites.

Many? Examples? (Preferrably many examples).

 

[Shusha]

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

No part of Israel is on "stolen" land. Why? Because the sovereignty over the land was dissolved. There was an absence of sovereignty. In other words, there was no one who held sovereignty for the land to be stolen from.

The sovereignty since then has been disputed between two peoples, both with compelling arguments for their claim.

 

[louie888]

No part of Israel is on "stolen" land. Why? Because the sovereignty over the land was dissolved. There was an absence of sovereignty. In other words, there was no one who held sovereignty for the land to be stolen from.

BS, PEOPLE LIVED THERE!

The sovereignty since then has been disputed between two peoples, both with compelling arguments for their claim.

THE JEWS HAVE NO, NADA, ZILCH, NOT EVEN ONE COMPELLING ARGUMENT OTHER THAN "might is right."

 

[Shusha]

THE JEWS HAVE NO, NADA, ZILCH, NOT EVEN ONE COMPELLING ARGUMENT OTHER THAN "might is right."

What was the Romans "compelling argument" for ending Jewish sovereignty over her ancestral and historical territory? What was the Arab's "compelling argument" for invading, colonizing and conquering the territory? What is the "compelling argument" for Canadian sovereignty or American sovereignty?

What "compelling arguments" exist for national self-determination?

 

[louie888]

THE JEWS HAVE NO, NADA, ZILCH, NOT EVEN ONE COMPELLING ARGUMENT OTHER THAN "might is right."

What was the Romans "compelling argument" for ending Jewish sovereignty over her ancestral and historical territory? What was the Arab's "compelling argument" for invading, colonizing and conquering the territory? What is the "compelling argument" for Canadian sovereignty or American sovereignty?

What "compelling arguments" exist for national self-determination?

Might is right?

 

[theliq]

Exactly what is the solution to this kind of thinking and behavior to bring an end to the conflict?

Palestinians falsely claim Hebron is "fourth holiest site in Islam" ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

How is another "Mandate" going to stop the Muslims from continuing to appropriate everything that is Jewish.

Something, by the way, they never did before Israel became sovereign.

How would a new " Mandate " stop the Muslims from their attempt to steal all things Jewish?

Which is Exactly what the Zionists Jews did to the Palestinians...You are a bloody Hypocrite

 

[theliq]

What part of Israel is not on stolen land?

Link?

No part of Israel is on "stolen" land. Why? Because the sovereignty over the land was dissolved. There was an absence of sovereignty. In other words, there was no one who held sovereignty for the land to be stolen from.

The sovereignty since then has been disputed between two peoples, both with compelling arguments for their claim.

Scum Argument

 

[theliq]

I have.

You are a little soft on this issue with respect Coy,maybe this may help you.

1947..The Zionist policy of Ethnically Cleansing the Palestinians was fervently persued at this time,by the Criminal Zionist Terrorist Groups..Hagan...Irgun and Qiryati...who later morphed into the Israeli Army(I.D.F)...with a desire to complete this WAR CRIME by March 1948.


This you will note was before the STATE OF ISRAEL WAS PROCLAIMED


Once the decision was taken,it took six months to complete the mission.When it was over,more than half of Palestine's native population,close to 800,000 Palestinians had been SLAUGHTERED,UPROOTED AND BRUTALIZED...531 Villages had been destroyed and razed AND ALL INHABITANTS,murdered or expelled to other Countries.to Refugee Camps,where some and their decendents still are..This Ethnic Cleansing is regarded under International Law,as a WAR CRIME.

Coy,I could go on but others have a greater knowledge than I,....Suggested reading.....Any thing by Benny Morris,Jewish Authority on the Massacres on the Palestinians.

Michael Palumbo's excellent "The Palestinian Catastrophe"published 1987....with introduction by the Israeli Prime Minister at the time Yitzhak Rabin.

Dan Kurzman's "Genesis"published in 1970 and again in 1992

Ilan Pappe's outstanding book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" published 2006,and reprinted 4 times in 2007

Note several Heads of the Hagana and Irgan became Prime Ministers of Israel..Begin being the most notable

The Zionists have tried to sweep this Slaughter under the carpet by DENIAL,much like the DENIAL of having Nuclear Capability, Weapons etc., which they have had since Illegally obtaining them in the early 1960's.

The Irony on this board is the way,Zionist Inspired and Zionists to try to make out that the victims(The Palestinians) are the Terrorists......Well what else could the Synthetic Zionists say..but too some Christians on here do the same...Hopefully when they meet their maker...they will be banished into the caldrons of Hell.

Israel was determined by VIOLENT TERRORISTS,WHO STOLE LAND TO CREATE A COUNTRY FOR SYNTHETIC ZIONIST JEWS,WHO WERE NOT JEWS AT ALL,MERELY CONVERTS TO THE FAITH....AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PALESTINIANS AND PEOPLE WORLDWIDE....FAUX WEEPING ABOUT HOW THEY WERE TREATED.......YET INCREDIBLY DID THE SAME TO THE PALESTINIANS....Real Jews and Secular Jews Detest Zionists and like me for Good Reason...steve....

I've read Bennie Morris and am familiar with much of the history, especially where it shows the holes in the "official" narrative. And I've argued in behalf of that historical dishonesty. Ask anyone here who is pro Israeli

But I'm looking at now, 70 years later. None of those players are alive. What you have NOW is a thriving society in Israel, a stunted society in Palestine, and thousands of stateless people with no rights residing in multi generational refugee camps.

What can be done with TODAY's situation to bring about peace, not further destruction, and give the Palestinians a future that does NOT involve the destruction of a people?

Well I could use the same tactics as the Zionist filth in 1947 onwards....if I was a Zionists...They do not want a Palestine in any form...End Of.....No I believe there should be a Free Palestine,with UN control as a Buffer between both sides...open the airport and shipping facilities...business would the flood in and the plight of the Palestinians economically and socially improve totally.st...trouble is the Zionists do not want this....and by the way this Land IS NOT THE ZIONISTS ANCESTRAL HOME....as these people who are now the majority in Israel,are Converts to a Cult,and have no claim to Palestine

At present Israel is one of the most Right Wing Societies in the world,