How about another Mandate? (A solutions thread)

[Challenger]

Israel is already a long established sovereign nation...recognized as such. You can't undo that.

Wanna bet? History is full of states that no longer exist or are not recognised internationally. Currently 31 UN member states do not recognise the Zionist paradise, it only takes that number to grow, and "Israel" will end up like "Northern Cypus" only recognised by Turkey.

Israel has been a nation since what, 1947...it has been able to grow a state, a successful state and while not perfect it offers far more rights and freedoms to its citizens who represent a diverse group.

That means almost four generations of Israeli 's. Why destroy that?

I'm not interested in "destroying" Israel, that's just the default Zionist position parroted out to the gullable West. I'm all for Muslims, Christians and Jewish people living together in peace but it's the pernicious ideology of Zionism I find fault with; "a Jewish state" for "Jews only" which is what the ultimate objective of Zionism is.

Please don't be fooled by these so called "rights and freedoms", "enjoyed" by it's citizens, you only have to look back on your own American history to see how easily "rights and freedoms" can be abused and manipulated by a majority against a minority. Zionist Israel is a herrenvolk state, that's something I for one am unable to tolerate in the modern world.

 

[theliq]

Another fake "solutions" thread from you?

The solution is simple AND HAS BEEN EXPLAINED TO YOU MULTIPLE TIMES. THE EUROPEAN JEWS WHO REFUSE TO OR SIMPLY CANNOT LIVE IN PEACE WITH THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OF THAT LAND NEED TO GO.

The "European Jews" get along wonderfully with the indigenous people of that land.

Surely you are not suggesting the land be ethnically cleansed of all people who can't get along with the indigenous peoples, are you? That seems awfully morally slippery of you.


Now, did you want to address the actual topic? Why would a Mandate not work as a solution?

Ethnically Cleansed,well that's what you tried and almost succeded with the Palestinians 1947 onwards...how about throwing everyone out whose grand parents were not born in Israel/Palestine.....that should get rid of most of the Synthetics.SAY NO TO SYNTHETICS,SAY NO TO NONE SEMITES

 

[theliq]

There are TWO kinds of Palestinians. Jewish Palestinians (now called Israelis) and Arab Palestinians. Each has equal rights.

You Moron,Palestinians living in Israel are called Palestinians.....NOT Jewish Palestinians....I know you Zionists are Mad,fortunately We Are Not...Never heard such unadulterated Nonsense in my life...BUT there are Two types of Jews living in Israel...the Semitic ORIGINALS and SYNTHETICS,almost all Zionist Terrorist Trash who converted to Judaism....They are no more an Original Jewish person than I am....and have no claim to any part of Palestine other than by Murderous Invasion...by your summary Illegal Immigrants and mine

 

[theliq]

There are TWO kinds of Palestinians. Jewish Palestinians (now called Israelis) and Arab Palestinians. Each has equal rights.

Equal Rights compared to each other because they certainly do not have Equal Rights to the Jews...If you are to continue on this USboard I suggest you elucidate more clearly....or was you comment part of the abnormal Zionist Terrorist BULLSHIT mantra of that CULT...the latter I assume

 

[Humanity]

Does Israel write your shit or do you make it up yourself?

Well, now, that is an interesting response. And honestly, its responses like this which are a microcosm which that demonstrate the crux of the conflict.

One side of the conflict poses a potential solution to the problem, thinking forward, trying to make actual improvements on people's actual lives and put the conflict to bed so everyone in the region can have peace and prosperity.

And the response is: Israel must be destroyed, Arabs must be restored to some fantasy existence. There is no other way. And its just fine for Arabs to suffer in the meantime. And anyone who says differently is just a hasbara troll.

That has been "Palestine"'s position for nearly a hundred years. Its getting them no where.

Israel must NOT be destroyed! That simply continues the continues the 'non solution'!

It is a good, out of the box view to consider a 'mandate' for a peaceful solution, one that I have mentioned some time ago, particularly within Gaza, where there needs to be a fundamental change and, if necessary, forced elections...

By the same token, Israel needs to withdraw from ALL occupied territory, annexed or otherwise, and stop the building of settlements!

Place Jerusalem under corpus separatum... Not a very popular solution for Israel for sure....

 

[Challenger]

Why is it impossible to imagine (and work for) two sovereign states side by side?

Can you provide a successful example of this ever happening, one "state" split into two "sovereign" states existing peacefully side by side, without continuing external pressure to maintain the status quo?

 

[rylah]

Czechoslovakia?
however they were both able to form a working legit. govt. for their people, unlike the case at hand.

 

[Challenger]

Does Israel write your shit or do you make it up yourself?

Well, now, that is an interesting response. And honestly, its responses like this which are a microcosm which that demonstrate the crux of the conflict.

One side of the conflict poses a potential solution to the problem, thinking forward, trying to make actual improvements on people's actual lives and put the conflict to bed so everyone in the region can have peace and prosperity.

And the response is: Israel must be destroyed, Arabs must be restored to some fantasy existence. There is no other way. And its just fine for Arabs to suffer in the meantime. And anyone who says differently is just a hasbara troll.

That has been "Palestine"'s position for nearly a hundred years. Its getting them no where.

Israel must NOT be destroyed! That simply continues the continues the 'non solution'!

It is a good, out of the box view to consider a 'mandate' for a peaceful solution, one that I have mentioned some time ago, particularly within Gaza, where there needs to be a fundamental change and, if necessary, forced elections...

By the same token, Israel needs to withdraw from ALL occupied territory, annexed or otherwise, and stop the building of settlements!

Place Jerusalem under corpus separatum... Not a very popular solution for Israel for sure....

Just curious if your "forced elections" return a Hamas government, what then?

 

[Challenger]

Czechoslovakia?
however they were both able to form a working legit. govt. for their people, unlike the case at hand.

Interesting choice, two peoples who created a country to stop themselves being absorbed by their neighbours, but as soon as the threat dissipated, they went their own ways.

Palestinians tried to work with the British for 20 -odd years, to create an independant nation for themselves, but they were thwarted time and again by British insistance on favouring the Zionist settler colonists over the native population. eventually they had enough and rose up against the "Mandatory" power, but were crushed with Zionist conivance and assistance. By the time the British realised their mistake, Palestinian leadership was either dead, imprisoned or exiled, the Zionists then turned on their British benefactors to complete their project of a "Jewish state."

Even when Palestinians are allowed to choose their own leadership, it can't work if it's not approved by their Zionist overlords. This "mandate" idea is a non starter, unless Zionist Isreal returns to at least it's pre-1967 borders and allows Palestinians to freely determine their own future.

 

[ProudVeteran76]

Because Israel is not having any trouble self-governing.

And no, we are not tossing Palestinian rights to territory or return. We are just acknowledging Israel's identical rights.

You have still posted ZERO PROOF that the first temple existed.

I know it upsets you because Israel exists. Make my DAY !

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinian state would probably absorb most of them in much the same way Israel absorbed Jewish refugees.

Gaza is already crowded and 2/3 of its population is already refugees.

There are already many refugees crowded into refugee camps in the West Bank. How can we fit refugees in those small bantustans and still have land for farming and industry?

That is one reason land swaps would be necessary to create a viable contiguous state. You know, when the Palestinian leadership was negotiating for peace they actually refused to take in the Palestinians in outside refugee camps. I don't know if that has changed.

 

[Shusha]

By the same token, Israel needs to withdraw from ALL occupied territory, annexed or otherwise, and stop the building of settlements!

Place Jerusalem under corpus separatum... Not a very popular solution for Israel for sure....

I think we largely agree (except for Jerusalem, which must stay under Israeli sovereignty). The problem is in defining "all occupied territory". According to Arab Palestinians, and certainly their governments in both Gaza and the West Bank, that means Israel must withdraw from ALL of the territory. That is what fundamentally needs to shift in terms of ideology, as I noted. The question is HOW to accomplish that ideological shift. In particular, the question is how Israel, the international community, and now (finally) some of the Arab countries can accomplish that from the outside.

Even if we define "all occupied territory" as the Green Line, we need to define what that means. Do you mean that land swaps are off the table? Do you mean that every single Jewish person must be removed from that side of the Green Line? Do you mean that the Jewish people can stay, but must renounce their Israeli citizenship and become Palestinians? How do we define a "settlement"? Are we discussing only Jewish settlements? Or must Arab settlements on the table for discussion as well? Must all settlements be dismantled or can they be incorporated into the new states?

We also need to discuss what it means to "withdraw". Does that mean we create an international border between two independent states, with all the standard features of an international border? Does that mean that neither side has on-going obligations to the other -- in terms of provision of services? What happens if there are further incidents of belligerency on either side? What would be the consequences of those acts?

It would be helpful for me for you to define your terms.



The basis for a two state solution is the Green Line with land swaps. Everyone knows this and has known it for decades.

1. Israel unilaterally decides what she is keeping and what she is willing to part with and withdraws accordingly.

2. Israel maintains the status quo.

3. Israel does whatever she wants until the Arab Palestinians get their shit together, shifts their own ideology and hammers out a peace treaty.

So, when you say Israel must withdraw from ALL occupied territory, you seem to be supporting option #1. (And frankly, I tend to lean that direction myself.) But there are some big ass problems with #1. Witness what happened with Gaza. The Arab Palestinians in that situation feel that they are being acted upon rather than having agency. They feel like Israel is still doing things TO them. Rather than shifting their ideology, it cements it. And this gives support to the more extreme ideology.

Part of the purpose of proposing a Mandate is to give Arab Palestinians a voice and a choice along a very specific pathway. Its a mentorship which brings them up, rather than perpetuating their sense of victimhood (being acted upon).

 

[Shusha]

Gaza is already crowded and 2/3 of its population is already refugees.

There are already many refugees crowded into refugee camps in the West Bank. How can we fit refugees in those small bantustans and still have land for farming and industry?

Gaza is no where near the most crowded place on earth. Literal, physical space is not the problem. The problem is building and maintaining the infrastructure and economy and providing adequate services for the people there. Its not a problem which requires anything other than the will to do it. Then no one in Gaza will be a refugee, in the real sense of the term.

Ditto the West Bank. As long as a contiguous Palestine is created (easily done), the problem is not physical space for all of the human beings who already exist there. (Clearly since all of the people already exist there.) Creating a subsistence-level agricultural economy may not be the best way to go, though. (Israel figured that out pretty quick and rather quickly developed its economy on tech.)

The idea that there is not enough physical space is just a red herring. Its a deliberate distraction from the real problems.

 

[Coyote]

Israel is already a long established sovereign nation...recognized as such. You can't undo that.

Wanna bet? History is full of states that no longer exist or are not recognised internationally. Currently 31 UN member states do not recognise the Zionist paradise, it only takes that number to grow, and "Israel" will end up like "Northern Cypus" only recognised by Turkey.

Israel has been a nation since what, 1947...it has been able to grow a state, a successful state and while not perfect it offers far more rights and freedoms to its citizens who represent a diverse group.

That means almost four generations of Israeli 's. Why destroy that?

I'm not interested in "destroying" Israel, that's just the default Zionist position parroted out to the gullable West. I'm all for Muslims, Christians and Jewish people living together in peace but it's the pernicious ideology of Zionism I find fault with; "a Jewish state" for "Jews only" which is what the ultimate objective of Zionism is.

Please don't be fooled by these so called "rights and freedoms", "enjoyed" by it's citizens, you only have to look back on your own American history to see how easily "rights and freedoms" can be abused and manipulated by a majority against a minority. Zionist Israel is a herrenvolk state, that's something I for one am unable to tolerate in the modern world.

I'm fully aware of the inequalities and injustices that exist in Israel, in fact I've argued against them many times.

But I also have to argue against your portrayal of Israel as a Zionist state. It is a state that has a population composed of a variety of of ethnic and religious groups who are citizens with full democratic rights so it clearly isn't Jewish only. At this point a future Palestinian state looks to have far less diversity.

Argue against injustice and inequality....not broadbrushing an entire people.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You know, when the Palestinian leadership was negotiating for peace they actually refused to take in the Palestinians in outside refugee camps. I don't know if that has changed.

The right to return is to their homes a properties. Those are not in the West bank or Gaza. Moving people from a refugee camp to a walled off bantustan is not a solution.

 

[Coyote]

Does Israel write your shit or do you make it up yourself?

Well, now, that is an interesting response. And honestly, its responses like this which are a microcosm which that demonstrate the crux of the conflict.

One side of the conflict poses a potential solution to the problem, thinking forward, trying to make actual improvements on people's actual lives and put the conflict to bed so everyone in the region can have peace and prosperity.

And the response is: Israel must be destroyed, Arabs must be restored to some fantasy existence. There is no other way. And its just fine for Arabs to suffer in the meantime. And anyone who says differently is just a hasbara troll.

That has been "Palestine"'s position for nearly a hundred years. Its getting them no where.

Israel must NOT be destroyed! That simply continues the continues the 'non solution'!

It is a good, out of the box view to consider a 'mandate' for a peaceful solution, one that I have mentioned some time ago, particularly within Gaza, where there needs to be a fundamental change and, if necessary, forced elections...

By the same token, Israel needs to withdraw from ALL occupied territory, annexed or otherwise, and stop the building of settlements!

Place Jerusalem under corpus separatum... Not a very popular solution for Israel for sure....

Just curious if your "forced elections" return a Hamas government, what then?

Then it is their choice.

 

[Shusha]

The right to return is to their homes a properties. Those are not in the West bank or Gaza. Moving people from a refugee camp to a walled off bantustan is not a solution.

No one on the Israeli side is suggesting bantustans as a solution. We are suggesting a sovereign, independent, self-governing, hopefully fully functioning Arab Palestinian state. We are also suggesting those who had homes and properties be permitted to return to them, but only those, not their descendants.

So you are again arguing a red herring.

 

[Coyote]

Czechoslovakia?
however they were both able to form a working legit. govt. for their people, unlike the case at hand.

Interesting choice, two peoples who created a country to stop themselves being absorbed by their neighbours, but as soon as the threat dissipated, they went their own ways.

Palestinians tried to work with the British for 20 -odd years, to create an independant nation for themselves, but they were thwarted time and again by British insistance on favouring the Zionist settler colonists over the native population. eventually they had enough and rose up against the "Mandatory" power, but were crushed with Zionist conivance and assistance. By the time the British realised their mistake, Palestinian leadership was either dead, imprisoned or exiled, the Zionists then turned on their British benefactors to complete their project of a "Jewish state."

Even when Palestinians are allowed to choose their own leadership, it can't work if it's not approved by their Zionist overlords. This "mandate" idea is a non starter, unless Zionist Isreal returns to at least it's pre-1967 borders and allows Palestinians to freely determine their own future.

That period in history was full of nationalist self-determination movements in former colonies and in the ME there was the pan Arab movement and the Jewish movement.

What I don't understand is why you seem to support Arab self determination and not Jewish self determination, because that is what I keep hearing in these arguments. The issue, at its most basic, is two peoples, who both have rights, fighting over the same piece of land.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That is one reason land swaps would be necessary to create a viable contiguous state.

Do land swaps mean that Israel gets to keep some of the most valuable territory in the world, Jerusalem, while the Palestinians get sand? If Israel wants Jerusalem they should give up the pre 1948 district of Nazareth.

A state that does not have food security can never be truly independent.

Any "state" that has no entry or exit except through Israel cannot be independent.

 

[rylah]

Czechoslovakia?
however they were both able to form a working legit. govt. for their people, unlike the case at hand.

Interesting choice, two peoples who created a country to stop themselves being absorbed by their neighbours, but as soon as the threat dissipated, they went their own ways.

Palestinians tried to work with the British for 20 -odd years, to create an independant nation for themselves, but they were thwarted time and again by British insistance on favouring the Zionist settler colonists over the native population. eventually they had enough and rose up against the "Mandatory" power, but were crushed with Zionist conivance and assistance. By the time the British realised their mistake, Palestinian leadership was either dead, imprisoned or exiled, the Zionists then turned on their British benefactors to complete their project of a "Jewish state."

Even when Palestinians are allowed to choose their own leadership, it can't work if it's not approved by their Zionist overlords. This "mandate" idea is a non starter, unless Zionist Isreal returns to at least it's pre-1967 borders and allows Palestinians to freely determine their own future.

You wanted an example, I gave You a working one.

The usual tactic of blaming everyone for the failures on the Palestinian side to form an effective govt. - gets old and unimpressive.

I've heard that the Palestinians had more money invested in them, than whole budgets of the European countries to rebuild after WWII.