How about another Mandate? (A solutions thread)

[Shusha]

*sigh* Been there, done that, in 1937 and 1947, that didn't work out so well for the Palestinians, did it?
just out of curiosity, would the UN allow palestine to freely choose it's "mandatory"?

No, that hasn't worked out so well for the Arab Palestinians. And yet they persist in their ideology and their futile actions against Israel, despite the colossal failure to achieve anything meaningful in the past 100 years. Maybe there is nothing that can be done about it and we just have to wait it out or see if they self-destruct.

It would be reasonable to expect Arab Palestine to have some agency in choosing the Mandatory Power. But not carte blanche. It would have to be someone with whom they could work to achieve something positive and beneficial for their people. Someone who could convince them to build rather than just destroy Israel.

Who do you think would be a likely candidate?

 

[Shusha]

Israel is already a long established sovereign nation...recognized as such. You can't undo that.

Wanna bet? History is full of states that no longer exist or are not recognised internationally. Currently 31 UN member states do not recognise the Zionist paradise, it only takes that number to grow, and "Israel" will end up like "Northern Cypus" only recognised by Turkey.

That number is unlikely to grow much beyond the Arab League and Muslim states that are already on that list, Bolivia notwithstanding. Its as likely to go the other direction, as the Muslim world crumbles around its own internal divide.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where would you put a Palestinian state.

Right next to the Israeli one. Its not that difficult.

That does not address my question.

What about the people who had orange groves in Jaffa or factories in Haifa or farms spread out all over Palestine?

 

[Roudy]

Israel is already a long established sovereign nation...recognized as such. You can't undo that.

Wanna bet? History is full of states that no longer exist or are not recognised internationally. Currently 31 UN member states do not recognise the Zionist paradise, it only takes that number to grow, and "Israel" will end up like "Northern Cypus" only recognised by Turkey.

A bunch of Muslim failed states and pariah nations like North Korea don't recognize Israel. Go ahead and bet against Israel based on that. LOL

 

[Shusha]

That does not address my question.

What about the people who had orange groves in Jaffa or factories in Haifa or farms spread out all over Palestine?

What about them? As discussed on the right of return thread, not everyone can be restored back to some imaginary world that might have been if the conflict hadn't happened.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That does not address my question.

What about the people who had orange groves in Jaffa or factories in Haifa or farms spread out all over Palestine?

What about them? As discussed on the right of return thread, not everyone can be restored back to some imaginary world that might have been if the conflict hadn't happened.

Does Israel write your shit or do you make it up yourself?

 

[Shusha]

Does Israel write your shit or do you make it up yourself?

Well, now, that is an interesting response. And honestly, its responses like this which are a microcosm which that demonstrate the crux of the conflict.

One side of the conflict poses a potential solution to the problem, thinking forward, trying to make actual improvements on people's actual lives and put the conflict to bed so everyone in the region can have peace and prosperity.

And the response is: Israel must be destroyed, Arabs must be restored to some fantasy existence. There is no other way. And its just fine for Arabs to suffer in the meantime. And anyone who says differently is just a hasbara troll.

That has been "Palestine"'s position for nearly a hundred years. Its getting them no where.

 

[montelatici]

It's been the position of the Christian and Muslim native inhabitants of Palestine that they, like all other people of the former Turkish territories and colonies, had the right to self-determination and independence over European colonists. As per Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations. That's quite easy to understand for most neutral observers.

 

[Coyote]

Israel is already a long established sovereign nation...recognized as such. You can't undo that.

Wanna bet? History is full of states that no longer exist or are not recognised internationally. Currently 31 UN member states do not recognise the Zionist paradise, it only takes that number to grow, and "Israel" will end up like "Northern Cypus" only recognised by Turkey.

Israel has been a nation since what, 1947...it has been able to grow a state, a successful state and while not perfect it offers far more rights and freedoms to its citizens who represent a diverse group.

That means almost four generations of Israeli 's. Why destroy that?

 

[Coyote]

Another fake "solutions" thread from you?

The solution is simple AND HAS BEEN EXPLAINED TO YOU MULTIPLE TIMES. THE EUROPEAN JEWS WHO REFUSE TO OR SIMPLY CANNOT LIVE IN PEACE WITH THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OF THAT LAND NEED TO GO.

It is that simple and they are already carrying out a similar policy on the Africans there.

How about actually addressing the points she made......novel idea.

It actually makes some sense, and it's thinking outside of the traditional box.

What points? This is just a rehash of a failed project of the late 20th century. Wonder how the US and Israel would react if the Palestinians chose Iran, Russia or China to be their mandatory power; be careful what you propose, the law of unintended consequences has a nasty habit of rearing it's ugly head when you least expect it.

What if it was a consortium of Arab states? It's about time they made some positive steps towards developing a Palestinian state instead of holding the Palestinians in limbo.

 

[montelatici]

Israel is already a long established sovereign nation...recognized as such. You can't undo that.

Wanna bet? History is full of states that no longer exist or are not recognised internationally. Currently 31 UN member states do not recognise the Zionist paradise, it only takes that number to grow, and "Israel" will end up like "Northern Cypus" only recognised by Turkey.

Israel has been a nation since what, 1947...it has been able to grow a state, a successful state and while not perfect it offers far more rights and freedoms to its citizens who represent a diverse group.

That means almost four generations of Israeli 's. Why destroy that?

I just can't understand why anyone could justify the colonization and expropriation of the inhabitants of a land just because the colonists have been successful. Crazy thinking. It's like saying destroying the Aboriginee culture in Australia was a good thing because Australia is successful.

 

[Hollie]

Israel is already a long established sovereign nation...recognized as such. You can't undo that.

Wanna bet? History is full of states that no longer exist or are not recognised internationally. Currently 31 UN member states do not recognise the Zionist paradise, it only takes that number to grow, and "Israel" will end up like "Northern Cypus" only recognised by Turkey.

Israel has been a nation since what, 1947...it has been able to grow a state, a successful state and while not perfect it offers far more rights and freedoms to its citizens who represent a diverse group.

That means almost four generations of Israeli 's. Why destroy that?

I just can't understand why anyone could justify the colonization and expropriation of the inhabitants of a land just because the colonists have been successful. Crazy thinking. It's like saying destroying the Aboriginee culture in Australia was a good thing because Australia is successful.

That's so silly. The European Christian Crusaders were exactly the colonizers you're whining about.

 

[Coyote]

Israel is already a long established sovereign nation...recognized as such. You can't undo that.

Wanna bet? History is full of states that no longer exist or are not recognised internationally. Currently 31 UN member states do not recognise the Zionist paradise, it only takes that number to grow, and "Israel" will end up like "Northern Cypus" only recognised by Turkey.

Israel has been a nation since what, 1947...it has been able to grow a state, a successful state and while not perfect it offers far more rights and freedoms to its citizens who represent a diverse group.

That means almost four generations of Israeli 's. Why destroy that?

I just can't understand why anyone could justify the colonization and expropriation of the inhabitants of a land just because the colonists have been successful. Crazy thinking. It's like saying destroying the Aboriginee culture in Australia was a good thing because Australia is successful.

Perhaps you don't understand it because you aren't framing get it accurately.

You want to destroy Israel. Do you also want to destroy Australia, Canada, USA...among other countries?

How far back do you want to go in terms of nations formed in part through immigration?

And then what about the indigenous Jewish people...why do you deny them the same rights of self determination that you would give indigenous non-Jews?

Why you ignore the fact that immigration ( or as you put it "colonization") occurred from the Arab side as well?

What about the destruction of the indigenous Jewish culture by the way?

 

[montelatici]

The expropriation of the native people of Palestine, the Muslims and Christians, occurred less than 100 years ago, when the world had already determined that colonization and expropriation of native people for the benefit of European colonists was no longer acceptable. The European Zionists were European, they were not people that had ancestors in the territory. There was no Arabian immigration of consequence. The Arabians were rulers, not settlers. The Arabian desert could not support large populations. The native people of Palestine adopted the religion and culture of the Arabian rulers as they adopted the religion and culture of the Roman rulers before. In fact, more to the point, the Jews were the first Christians, they became the the people of the area slowly initially and then quickly when the Romans adopted Christianity as their state religion the Christians (once Jews) became the majority of the people of Palestine. The Jews that converted to Christianity did not destroy anything, they just became Christians.

 

[Coyote]

So...not to get diverted too much, why are you for non Jewish Palestinian self determination but not Jewish self determination?

Why is it impossible to imagine (and work for) two sovereign states side by side?

 

[P F Tinmore]

So...not to get diverted too much, why are you for non Jewish Palestinian self determination but not Jewish self determination?

Why is it impossible to imagine (and work for) two sovereign states side by side?

The majority of Palestinians are refugees. How would two states rectify that problem?

 

[Coyote]

So...not to get diverted too much, why are you for non Jewish Palestinian self determination but not Jewish self determination?

Why is it impossible to imagine (and work for) two sovereign states side by side?

The majority of Palestinians are refugees. How would two states rectify that problem?

The Palestinian state would probably absorb most of them in much the same way Israel absorbed Jewish refugees. A lot would depend on how the state is formed. There would have to be land swaps to create a viable state for the Palestinians and address Israels security needs. Ideally there would be no involuntary population shifts, people could choose to remain and accept a new citizenship or move.

For those that lost property in Israel but can't return, there should be compensation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

For those that lost property in Israel but can't return, there should be compensation.

Are the freeloaders going to pay that or are they going to drop that cost on the international community.

 

[Coyote]

For those that lost property in Israel but can't return, there should be compensation.

Are the freeloaders going to pay that or are they going to drop that cost on the international community.

It would have to e from Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinian state would probably absorb most of them in much the same way Israel absorbed Jewish refugees.

Gaza is already crowded and 2/3 of its population is already refugees.

There are already many refugees crowded into refugee camps in the West Bank. How can we fit refugees in those small bantustans and still have land for farming and industry?