How about another Mandate? (A solutions thread)

[P F Tinmore]

The 'right of return', whilst I believe it to be the correct thing is as impractical as it is contentious!

Why is it impractical for the Palestinians to receive their rights?

Its a case of competing rights. Both peoples have rights. The problem is that the application of rights for one group removes or restricts the rights of the other. Therefore, there needs to be compromise on both sides.

I have links stating Palestinian rights.

Do you have anything for the Israelis?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The 'right of return', whilst I believe it to be the correct thing is as impractical as it is contentious!

Why is it impractical for the Palestinians to receive their rights?

Its a case of competing rights. Both peoples have rights. The problem is that the application of rights for one group removes or restricts the rights of the other. Therefore, there needs to be compromise on both sides.

Where is it that the rights of the Palestinians infringe on the rights of the Jews?

 

[Shusha]

It is morally unacceptable for a nation not to have a deterent against potential attacks.

You mean the capability to defend itself? I agree.

Though I also agree that temporary disarmament in cases of belligerency is not unreasonable.

 

[Shusha]

I have links stating Palestinian rights.

Do you have anything for the Israelis?

You don't have any "links" which state special rights for the Arab Palestinians. Just the opposite. Any document which states "Jewish National Home" does grant special rights to the Jewish people.

Besides, you continually argue that rights to things like self-determination are inherent in international law and don't depend on treaties, etc.

Just apply all your usual arguments to the Jewish people as well. Its not hard.

 

[Shusha]

Where is it that the rights of the Palestinians infringe on the rights of the Jews?

Any place they deny or prevent or destroy Jewish self-determination and sovereignty on at least part of the territory.

The influx of millions of so-called refugees into the territory of Jewish self-determination will destroy Jewish self-determination. (Just the same way that an influx of millions of Jewish people into the territory of Arab Palestinian self-determination will destroy Arab self-determination).

 

[P F Tinmore]

I have links stating Palestinian rights.

Do you have anything for the Israelis?

You don't have any "links" which state special rights for the Arab Palestinians. Just the opposite. Any document which states "Jewish National Home" does grant special rights to the Jewish people.

Besides, you continually argue that rights to things like self-determination are inherent in international law and don't depend on treaties, etc.

Just apply all your usual arguments to the Jewish people as well. Its not hard.

Palestine was created by treaty.

Israel was created by unilateral military action.

 

[montelatici]

I have links stating Palestinian rights.

Do you have anything for the Israelis?

You don't have any "links" which state special rights for the Arab Palestinians. Just the opposite. Any document which states "Jewish National Home" does grant special rights to the Jewish people.

Besides, you continually argue that rights to things like self-determination are inherent in international law and don't depend on treaties, etc.

Just apply all your usual arguments to the Jewish people as well. Its not hard.

Article 22 of the LoN Covenant is quite clear. The Europeans that practiced Judaism were inhabitants of Europe, not Palestine. 90% of the inhabitants at the time of writing were Christians or Muslims.

"ARTICLE 22.
To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League..."

 

[deanrd]

Maybe we should put Gaza and Areas A, B and parts of C under another Mandate, or two? Since the Arab Palestinians don't seem to be capable of developing independence on their own, despite decades of financial and political assistance, perhaps it would be best if they had a tutor?

The Mandatory power could make an agreement (peace treaty) with Israel regarding mutual security and borders (a relatively simple process) and then actually occupy the territories (yes, in the real sense of the word and not the fake drivel) while working directly with the Palestinian people to develop their Statehood.

One would hope that once the "Jewish problem" is removed, a fair number of Palestinians would prefer peace and prosperity over continued low-level conflict and would co-operate if the carrot was realistically presented.

While it would be easy to respond that this removes Palestinian agency, please note I am suggesting that the Palestinians who wish to have independence, a State and peace with Israel should be assisted by being given the time and space to act upon that agency, while the terrorist groups are subdued.

I tried a mandate once, but found out I liked dating girls more.

 

[Shusha]

Article 22 of the LoN Covenant is quite clear. The Europeans that practiced Judaism were inhabitants of Europe, not Palestine. 90% of the inhabitants at the time of writing were Christians or Muslims.

And the other 10% were Jews, weren't they Monte? Why would that other peoples not have the SAME inherent rights? Including Article 22 rights?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Article 22 of the LoN Covenant is quite clear. The Europeans that practiced Judaism were inhabitants of Europe, not Palestine. 90% of the inhabitants at the time of writing were Christians or Muslims.

And the other 10% were Jews, weren't they Monte? Why would that other peoples not have the SAME inherent rights? Including Article 22 rights?

They do. With the other people not instead of the other people.

 

[Shusha]

Article 22 of the LoN Covenant is quite clear. The Europeans that practiced Judaism were inhabitants of Europe, not Palestine. 90% of the inhabitants at the time of writing were Christians or Muslims.

And the other 10% were Jews, weren't they Monte? Why would that other peoples not have the SAME inherent rights? Including Article 22 rights?

They do. With the other people not instead of the other people.

No one on the pro-Israel side is arguing "instead of".

 

[ProudVeteran76]

So...not to get diverted too much, why are you for non Jewish Palestinian self determination but not Jewish self determination?

Why is it impossible to imagine (and work for) two sovereign states side by side?

The majority of Palestinians are refugees. How would two states rectify that problem?

That is why there will NEVER be the " Two State Solution"

 

[Shusha]

They do. With the other people not instead of the other people.

Do you mean to imply that neither the Jewish people nor the Arab people have a right to independent sovereignty?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Article 22 of the LoN Covenant is quite clear. The Europeans that practiced Judaism were inhabitants of Europe, not Palestine. 90% of the inhabitants at the time of writing were Christians or Muslims.

And the other 10% were Jews, weren't they Monte? Why would that other peoples not have the SAME inherent rights? Including Article 22 rights?

They do. With the other people not instead of the other people.

No one on the pro-Israel side is arguing "instead of".

Except those who deny the rights of the Palestinians to live in their homeland.

 

[Hollie]

I have links stating Palestinian rights.

Do you have anything for the Israelis?

You don't have any "links" which state special rights for the Arab Palestinians. Just the opposite. Any document which states "Jewish National Home" does grant special rights to the Jewish people.

Besides, you continually argue that rights to things like self-determination are inherent in international law and don't depend on treaties, etc.

Just apply all your usual arguments to the Jewish people as well. Its not hard.

Palestine was created by treaty.

Israel was created by unilateral military action.

You mean that your invented Pal'istan was created by unilateral military action on the part of the Turk invaders and Arab invaders.

What a shame you have learned nothing about history and still refuse the history that identifies the land area of Pal'istan as a non-descript geographic area.

 

[P F Tinmore]

They do. With the other people not instead of the other people.

Do you mean to imply that neither the Jewish people nor the Arab people have a right to independent sovereignty?

As Palestinian citizens, they all had the same rights.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I have links stating Palestinian rights.

Do you have anything for the Israelis?

You don't have any "links" which state special rights for the Arab Palestinians. Just the opposite. Any document which states "Jewish National Home" does grant special rights to the Jewish people.

Besides, you continually argue that rights to things like self-determination are inherent in international law and don't depend on treaties, etc.

Just apply all your usual arguments to the Jewish people as well. Its not hard.

Palestine was created by treaty.

Israel was created by unilateral military action.

You mean that your invented Pal'istan was created by unilateral military action on the part of the Turk invaders and Arab invaders.

What a shame you have learned nothing about history and still refuse the history that identifies the land area of Pal'istan as a non-descript geographic area.

Oh jeese, where do you get this shit?

 

[Coyote]

I am not restricting new forms of myth and story. Or a sharing of cultures. Remember what the foundation of the discussion is. Jerusalem. The Temple Mount. The Cave of the Patriarchs. The Tombs of Joseph and Rachel.

These places, these places of religious and historical meaning for the Jewish people, are being erased from that people's history. They are not just being "adopted" by another parent -- they are being erased from being connected to the Jewish people. By followers of Islam. By a foreign culture who invaded and usurped the places, the history, the myths, the stories and are actively trying to exclude the original builders of these places. With the support of the international community. And you are arguing FOR it.


.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

If you mean by the UN's report excluding mention of any Jewish ties or names for those places, using only the Muslim names - then I agree that is wrong.

If you're talking about excluding Jews from those places - I agree that is wrong.

I'm not seeing it as "theft" because Islam and Christianity both have Judaism as their foundation.

 

[Hollie]

I have links stating Palestinian rights.

Do you have anything for the Israelis?

You don't have any "links" which state special rights for the Arab Palestinians. Just the opposite. Any document which states "Jewish National Home" does grant special rights to the Jewish people.

Besides, you continually argue that rights to things like self-determination are inherent in international law and don't depend on treaties, etc.

Just apply all your usual arguments to the Jewish people as well. Its not hard.

Palestine was created by treaty.

Israel was created by unilateral military action.

You mean that your invented Pal'istan was created by unilateral military action on the part of the Turk invaders and Arab invaders.

What a shame you have learned nothing about history and still refuse the history that identifies the land area of Pal'istan as a non-descript geographic area.

Oh jeese, where do you get this shit?

Oh jeese. It's not curious at all that you have a subjective timeline that allows for Islamist invaders, Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese squatters to magically become Pal'istanians.

Otherwise, tell us about the specific borders of your invented "country of Pal'istan" when it was a Sanjuk of the Ottoman empire.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It's not curious at all that you have a subjective timeline that allows for Islamist invaders, Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese squatters to magically become Pal'istanians.

Links?