Honest and open debate on gun control

[RKMBrown]

Correct. Hopefully you now understand that the argument you tried to make here is unsound.

My argument was sound. The point was there are hundreds of products that are licensed.

How many of them involve the exercise of a fundamental right specifically protected from infringement by the constitution?
None?
Thank you.

The tax stamp is the license.

No. Its not. It means you paid the transfer tax.

Nearly every license/tax is a regulation on your rights. Your confusion stems from the definitions of terms. You seem to think shall not be infringed means shall not be taxed or regulated or licensed. You are confused.

That's exactly what it means, as both are preconditions to the the exercise of the right not inherent to same.
Requring a license and paring regulatory-based tax violates the plenary exercise of the right to arms every bit as much as it viiolates the right to free speech, religion and abortion.

Wrong. It means you paid the transfer tax, filled out the form, the form was reviewed and approved providing you with the stamp, which licenses you to own the machine gun. No stamp you are in violation.

Tax stamp:
Revenue stamp - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
License
License - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Non-synonymous.

It's not just a matter of paying for the stamp. And they don't hand out the stamp to everyone that pays for it. It's just just a stamp. It's a license to own, you can't buy one without it. They have "fooled" you into believing that the form and registration process hidden behind the curtain is just a two hundred dollar stamp printer. Notice the part about your local police chief having to approve your "stamp" ROFL You can call it a widget or a stamp or pixie dust... it's still a license.

As for infringe.. you're definition of infringe appears to cover pretty much any act as if government is not allowed to do anything that might slow you down from rushing to the store and buying a gun. You are wrong. Regulation is not infringement.

Infringe: to wrongly limit or restrict ... regulation is not a restriction... nor is taxation a limit that is wrongly placed. The government is allowed to tax the hell out of you for any purpose whatsoever, even the right to live.

 

[2aguy]

Careful what you ask for. I just may take you up on it for the fun.

As with other products that when used carry large risk... guns owners should also be required to undergo testing and carry liability insurance for cases where the weapon is used in an un-responsible manner. The testing should be rigorous and weed out insane people, as well as risks to society. Since a death may be involved the amount of liability insurance should be significantly large.

Firearm ownership should be contingent on licensing. And obtaining a license for every individual firearm owned should be contingent on demonstrating adequate knowledge of the function and necessary safeguards pertaining to the use, handling and storage of that weapon. This requirement will substantially reduce the number of accidental shootings.

This licensing requirement should be administered by firearm dealers who must ascertain and certify that every purchaser is adequately knowledgeable and competent in the use and handling and safeguard of each specific firearm sold.

This requirement is neither more imposing nor less necessary than that of obtaining a license to drive a car. And obtaining the license would not take more than 15 - 30 minutes and would take place at the dealership prior to purchase of the weapon.

Do you realize that today...with over 320 million guns in private hands that the accidental death rate due to guns was 505 in 2013......and it has been going down, not up as more people now own and carry guns for self defense?

And once you mandate that all voters must submit a license showing that they have a full and complete grasp of the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence then they will be allowed to vote...right?

Licensing would do nothing to keep people safe from gun accidents....you know what would......teaching gun safety as part of the fire safety program in all grade schools...that would keep more kids safe.......how about we do that, then you don't have to worry about licensing anyone......

Again...cars are not a right.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Tax stamp:
Revenue stamp - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
License
License - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Non-synonymous.

It's not just a matter of paying for the stamp. And they don't hand out the stamp to everyone that pays for it.
It's just just a stamp. It's a license to own, you can't buy one without it.....

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that these words have different definition than the ones you want to assign them.

 

[RKMBrown]

Tax stamp:
Revenue stamp - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
License
License - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Non-synonymous.

It's not just a matter of paying for the stamp. And they don't hand out the stamp to everyone that pays for it.
It's just just a stamp. It's a license to own, you can't buy one without it.....

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that these words have different definition than the ones you want to assign them.

I provided a list of the things done before you are allowed to get your "stamp." You can call it nothing but a stamp, but everyone but you apparently knows it's more than a mere stamp, it's a license for one gun. But I guess some people lack the intelligence to understand that renaming a thing to call it a stamp and make stupid people feel ok about it does not make the word so.

For example affordable health care act... not affordable at all is it? As another example, patriot act... not patriotic at all is it? Deer stamp is not a coupon, it's a license to kill a deer.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Tax stamp:
Revenue stamp - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
License
License - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Non-synonymous.

It's not just a matter of paying for the stamp. And they don't hand out the stamp to everyone that pays for it.
It's just just a stamp. It's a license to own, you can't buy one without it.....

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that these words have different definition than the ones you want to assign them.

I provided a list of the things done before you are allowed to get your "stamp." You can call it nothing but a stamp, but everyone but you apparently knows it's more than a mere stamp, it's a license for one gun.

No matter how many times you repeat this, and no matter how hard you stomp your feet while doing so, it will not change the fact that licenses and tax stamps are non-synonymous.

 

[RKMBrown]

Tax stamp:
Revenue stamp - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
License
License - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Non-synonymous.

It's not just a matter of paying for the stamp. And they don't hand out the stamp to everyone that pays for it.
It's just just a stamp. It's a license to own, you can't buy one without it.....

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that these words have different definition than the ones you want to assign them.

I provided a list of the things done before you are allowed to get your "stamp." You can call it nothing but a stamp, but everyone but you apparently knows it's more than a mere stamp, it's a license for one gun.

No matter how many times you repeat this, and no matter how hard you stomp your feet while doing so, it will not change the fact that licenses and tax stamps are non-synonymous.

They are when the stamp is proof of license by the state for ownership.

You do know what license means right? License: a permit from an authority to own or use something, do a particular thing, or carry on a trade.

Here's another explanation...:

Step 1: Purchase NFA Item from dealer with class 3 license
The first step in the process is to purchase your firearm since you will need the serial number for your paperwork. When you purchase through a dealer with a class 3 license you can process paperwork through them. Once you have purchased your firearm, the dealer will hold the weapon until you are approved. If your paperwork is not approved for whatever reason, you may or may not get all of your money back depending on your dealer. Some dealers will allow you to put the payment in escrow, but be sure to be clear on all contingencies before buying.

ATF Form 4
ATF Form 4 is the application for tax paid transfer and registration of a firearm. You need to complete this form in duplicate to start the process of obtaining your NFA tax stamp. Remember that any misleading or false statement made on your paperwork is considered a felony offense.

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf

Fingerprints & recent photos
Submitted with your ATF Form 4, you will need 2 sets of fingerprint cards and 2 recent photos of yourself in a passport style. Fingerprint cards can be made at your local Police Station or Sheriff's Department so contact them for more information. As for the passport photos, you can go to any place that takes photos for passports (like Walgreens).

Form 5330.20
When the transferee of a NFA firearm is an individual, form 5330.20, which is the certification of compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B), must be filed. This form certifies that you have US citizenship.

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5330-20.pdf

Signature by Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO)
You will need a CLEO signature on your NFA Form 4. The CLEO signature it to have an authority in your local area check for criminal background or activity and look for a legitimate reason to deny your request. The authority can be your Chief of police, county Sheriff, State or Federal Judge. Don’t be discouraged if one of them is not willing to sign, the worst that is going to happen is you get told no and you have to move on to the next qualified CLEO.

Tax Stamp
A $200 tax stamp needs to be bought for each weapon transaction submitted unless you are buying a weapon that falls under the “any other weapons” category, in this case the tax stamp will cost $5. A check or money order made payable to the Bureau of ATF can be sent with the application forms to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch.

The wait
After the paperwork is received an extensive background check is done and your fingerprints are ran by FBI and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). If all is in order, approval is granted and your ATF form 4, fingerprints, and photos are filed with the BATFE and your duplicate Form 4 with canceled tax stamp is sent to you. The process can take around 90-180 days but recently has been taking 7-11 months.

.............


It's a helluva lot easier to get a driver's license than it is a license to own machine gun.

 

[RKMBrown]

Tax stamp:
Revenue stamp - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
License
License - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Non-synonymous.

It's not just a matter of paying for the stamp. And they don't hand out the stamp to everyone that pays for it.
It's just just a stamp. It's a license to own, you can't buy one without it.....

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that these words have different definition than the ones you want to assign them.

I provided a list of the things done before you are allowed to get your "stamp." You can call it nothing but a stamp, but everyone but you apparently knows it's more than a mere stamp, it's a license for one gun.

No matter how many times you repeat this, and no matter how hard you stomp your feet while doing so, it will not change the fact that licenses and tax stamps are non-synonymous.

I did not say licenses and tax stamps were synonymous. Those are your words.

The permit (aka. license, aka tax stamp for permited machine guns) is regulated by, managed by, and most certainly licensed by the ATF and Local Police.

 

[Agit8r]

There is a constitutional protection for law abiding and competent adults to own weapons suitable to defend themselves from likely threats to their person and property, but there may be various limits to that right (DC v. Heller).

The most productive limitation would be a banning on the new manufacture of clips beyond 15 rounds, along with the classification of existing clips of greater than 15 rounds as a destructive devise under FOPA, subject to the same tax stamp requirements as machine guns.

After all, the classical definition of tyranny is having the lives of the many being at the mercy of a madman.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

How does the tiny % of guns and gun owners that misuse their firearms create a compelling state interest where it must have on record the identity and whereabouts of everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms in order to protect the rights of the people?

How does the even tinier % of guns and gun owners involved in an accidental shooting create a compelling state interest where it must require that everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms undergo some sort of state-specified training in order to protect the rights of the people?[...]

Either your statistical source is somewhat distorted or your concerns are rather casual.

(Excerpt)

A study published Monday in Pediatrics, the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, revealed that a startling 10,000 children in the U.S. are either injured or killed in gun-related incidents each year, NBC reports.

According to the study, more than 7,000 kids visit the emergency room annually, or about 20 each day, due to gun-related injuries and another 3,000 die before they ever even make it to the hospital. The majority – about half — of those injuries and deaths are the result of assault, while less than 25 percent are due to accidents and under 300 cases – less than 3 percent — are ruled to be from attempted suicide.

Study shows 10 000 youth injured or killed each year in the U.S. by firearms

(Close)

We don't want cars on the road which are driven by those who have not demonstrated their competence and knowledge of the rules. The same requirement should apply to guns.

Gun dealers should be responsible for ensuring that a person to whom he hands over a firearm -- a lethal weapon, understands how to use it, how it works, and how to properly safeguard it. It would take just a few minutes to make such a determination and certify it in writing.

And if it prevents the death and injury of just a few innocent kids (and adults) why do you feel it's not worth the effort and bureaucratic imposition?

If you put a car on the road you should know how to drive it. If you put a gun in your home, or in your pocket, you should know how it works and how to use it. That seems reasonable to me.

As to your suggestion about training in schools, while that would be a very good source of general information it would not provide critical information about the specific mechanics of the many hundreds of different firearms on today's market. It should be up to the individual who is interested in owning a specific gun to learn how to safely handle it and properly use it.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Tax stamp:
Revenue stamp - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
License
License - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Non-synonymous.

It's not just a matter of paying for the stamp. And they don't hand out the stamp to everyone that pays for it.
It's just just a stamp. It's a license to own, you can't buy one without it.....

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that these words have different definition than the ones you want to assign them.

I provided a list of the things done before you are allowed to get your "stamp." You can call it nothing but a stamp, but everyone but you apparently knows it's more than a mere stamp, it's a license for one gun.

No matter how many times you repeat this, and no matter how hard you stomp your feet while doing so, it will not change the fact that licenses and tax stamps are non-synonymous.

They are when the stamp is proof of license by the state for ownership.

The cancelled tax stamp is proof that the tax was paid at the end of the process. Its still not a license.
NFA Class III firearm licenses do not exist.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Tax stamp:
Revenue stamp - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
License
License - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Non-synonymous.

It's not just a matter of paying for the stamp. And they don't hand out the stamp to everyone that pays for it.
It's just just a stamp. It's a license to own, you can't buy one without it.....

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that these words have different definition than the ones you want to assign them.

I provided a list of the things done before you are allowed to get your "stamp." You can call it nothing but a stamp, but everyone but you apparently knows it's more than a mere stamp, it's a license for one gun.

No matter how many times you repeat this, and no matter how hard you stomp your feet while doing so, it will not change the fact that licenses and tax stamps are non-synonymous.

I did not say licenses and tax stamps were synonymous.

You're arguing that the tax stamp for the NFA class III firearm is a license for that firearm -- and so yes, yes you did.

 

[M14 Shooter]

There is a constitutional protection for law abiding and competent adults to own weapons suitable to defend themselves from likely threats to their person and property, but there may be various limits to that right (DC v. Heller).

The most productive limitation would be a banning on the new manufacture of clips beyond 15 rounds, along with the classification of existing clips of greater than 15 rounds as a destructive devise under FOPA, subject to the same tax stamp requirements as machine guns.

How is this "productive"?
How does this prevent criminals from getting guns?
How does this not violate the constitution?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Either your statistical source is somewhat distorted or your concerns are rather casual.

Source for accidents and suicides
http://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D105
Feel free to conduct the appropriate searches.- there's a lot of good info in there.
Source for murders:
FBI Expanded Offense Data

I ask again::
How does the tiny % of guns and gun owners that misuse their firearms create a compelling state interest where it must have on record the identity and whereabouts of everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms in order to protect the rights of the people?

How does the even tinier % of guns and gun owners involved in an accidental shooting create a compelling state interest where it must require that everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms undergo some sort of state-specified training in order to protect the rights of the people?

 

[2aguy]

There is a constitutional protection for law abiding and competent adults to own weapons suitable to defend themselves from likely threats to their person and property, but there may be various limits to that right (DC v. Heller).

The most productive limitation would be a banning on the new manufacture of clips beyond 15 rounds, along with the classification of existing clips of greater than 15 rounds as a destructive devise under FOPA, subject to the same tax stamp requirements as machine guns.

After all, the classical definition of tyranny is having the lives of the many being at the mercy of a madman.

Yeah...you realize that would be stupid and pointless right...considering how easily French criminals get fully automatic rifles and 30 round magazines in a country that doesn't allow law abiding French citizens to have any guns.....and you expect our criminals to not be able to get any magazine they want.....

And mass shooters.....the Church shooter.....changed magazines 5 times, the Santa Barbara shooter, used the 10 round legal magazines allowed in California...

So again...pointless and unnecessary and only affects the law abiding.....

Why do you guys never look beyond the first step of your "solution" to what happens after you implement it.......it would save a lot of typing on our part.....

 

[2aguy]

Either your statistical source is somewhat distorted or your concerns are rather casual.

Source for accidents and suicides
http://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D105
Feel free to conduct the appropriate searches.- there's a lot of good info in there.
Source for murders:
FBI Expanded Offense Data

I ask again::
How does the tiny % of guns and gun owners that misuse their firearms create a compelling state interest where it must have on record the identity and whereabouts of everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms in order to protect the rights of the people?

How does the even tinier % of guns and gun owners involved in an accidental shooting create a compelling state interest where it must require that everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms undergo some sort of state-specified training in order to protect the rights of the people?

Yes.....in a country of over 320 million people......we had exactly 505 accidental gun deaths in 2013.........505 deaths in a country of 320 million....

The gun grabbers are nuts........

and even gun murders...only 8,454 in 2013...out of a country of over 320 million people...

If they really cared about stopping crimnals, they would actually worry about stopping criminals...for example...in the Chicago 4th of July Shooting Gallery, a 7 year old was killed as gunmen tried to shoot his father....a high ranking gang leader....

This man has over 40 arrests on the record, is a convicted felon...and was arrested on a gun possession charge...and he was out of jail the next day....

Fix that problem and don't worry about the law abiding people.....you don't have to worry about them...they aren't the problem with guns....

 

[2aguy]

[...]

How does the tiny % of guns and gun owners that misuse their firearms create a compelling state interest where it must have on record the identity and whereabouts of everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms in order to protect the rights of the people?

How does the even tinier % of guns and gun owners involved in an accidental shooting create a compelling state interest where it must require that everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms undergo some sort of state-specified training in order to protect the rights of the people?[...]

Either your statistical source is somewhat distorted or your concerns are rather casual.

(Excerpt)

A study published Monday in Pediatrics, the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, revealed that a startling 10,000 children in the U.S. are either injured or killed in gun-related incidents each year, NBC reports.

According to the study, more than 7,000 kids visit the emergency room annually, or about 20 each day, due to gun-related injuries and another 3,000 die before they ever even make it to the hospital. The majority – about half — of those injuries and deaths are the result of assault, while less than 25 percent are due to accidents and under 300 cases – less than 3 percent — are ruled to be from attempted suicide.

Study shows 10 000 youth injured or killed each year in the U.S. by firearms

(Close)

We don't want cars on the road which are driven by those who have not demonstrated their competence and knowledge of the rules. The same requirement should apply to guns.

Gun dealers should be responsible for ensuring that a person to whom he hands over a firearm -- a lethal weapon, understands how to use it, how it works, and how to properly safeguard it. It would take just a few minutes to make such a determination and certify it in writing.

And if it prevents the death and injury of just a few innocent kids (and adults) why do you feel it's not worth the effort and bureaucratic imposition?

If you put a car on the road you should know how to drive it. If you put a gun in your home, or in your pocket, you should know how it works and how to use it. That seems reasonable to me.

As to your suggestion about training in schools, while that would be a very good source of general information it would not provide critical information about the specific mechanics of the many hundreds of different firearms on today's market. It should be up to the individual who is interested in owning a specific gun to learn how to safely handle it and properly use it.

Sorry...that isn't a real study....the CDC shows that for 2013 there were exactly 505 accidental gun deaths in total.....and child deaths due to guns are approximately under 100 each year...

You need to stop trusting the anti gun propaganda put out as research....

 

[2aguy]

[...]

How does the tiny % of guns and gun owners that misuse their firearms create a compelling state interest where it must have on record the identity and whereabouts of everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms in order to protect the rights of the people?

How does the even tinier % of guns and gun owners involved in an accidental shooting create a compelling state interest where it must require that everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms undergo some sort of state-specified training in order to protect the rights of the people?[...]

Either your statistical source is somewhat distorted or your concerns are rather casual.

(Excerpt)

A study published Monday in Pediatrics, the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, revealed that a startling 10,000 children in the U.S. are either injured or killed in gun-related incidents each year, NBC reports.

According to the study, more than 7,000 kids visit the emergency room annually, or about 20 each day, due to gun-related injuries and another 3,000 die before they ever even make it to the hospital. The majority – about half — of those injuries and deaths are the result of assault, while less than 25 percent are due to accidents and under 300 cases – less than 3 percent — are ruled to be from attempted suicide.

Study shows 10 000 youth injured or killed each year in the U.S. by firearms

(Close)

We don't want cars on the road which are driven by those who have not demonstrated their competence and knowledge of the rules. The same requirement should apply to guns.

Gun dealers should be responsible for ensuring that a person to whom he hands over a firearm -- a lethal weapon, understands how to use it, how it works, and how to properly safeguard it. It would take just a few minutes to make such a determination and certify it in writing.

And if it prevents the death and injury of just a few innocent kids (and adults) why do you feel it's not worth the effort and bureaucratic imposition?

If you put a car on the road you should know how to drive it. If you put a gun in your home, or in your pocket, you should know how it works and how to use it. That seems reasonable to me.

As to your suggestion about training in schools, while that would be a very good source of general information it would not provide critical information about the specific mechanics of the many hundreds of different firearms on today's market. It should be up to the individual who is interested in owning a specific gun to learn how to safely handle it and properly use it.

Do you understand how they come up with that number.......did you check the ages of the "Children" in that study?

To get numbers that high they include "Children" up to 25...at least that is the way they have done it in the past....and most of the "Children" in the study are gang members, with criminal records shot in crime related activity...

that is how the gun grabbers get that number high.....

Then they pretend it is little Jane and Johnny riding their bikes or selling lemonade on their front lawn...

Never, ever trust gun grabbers....they lie....

 

[2aguy]

[...]

How does the tiny % of guns and gun owners that misuse their firearms create a compelling state interest where it must have on record the identity and whereabouts of everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms in order to protect the rights of the people?

How does the even tinier % of guns and gun owners involved in an accidental shooting create a compelling state interest where it must require that everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms undergo some sort of state-specified training in order to protect the rights of the people?[...]

Either your statistical source is somewhat distorted or your concerns are rather casual.

(Excerpt)

A study published Monday in Pediatrics, the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, revealed that a startling 10,000 children in the U.S. are either injured or killed in gun-related incidents each year, NBC reports.

According to the study, more than 7,000 kids visit the emergency room annually, or about 20 each day, due to gun-related injuries and another 3,000 die before they ever even make it to the hospital. The majority – about half — of those injuries and deaths are the result of assault, while less than 25 percent are due to accidents and under 300 cases – less than 3 percent — are ruled to be from attempted suicide.

Study shows 10 000 youth injured or killed each year in the U.S. by firearms

(Close)

We don't want cars on the road which are driven by those who have not demonstrated their competence and knowledge of the rules. The same requirement should apply to guns.

Gun dealers should be responsible for ensuring that a person to whom he hands over a firearm -- a lethal weapon, understands how to use it, how it works, and how to properly safeguard it. It would take just a few minutes to make such a determination and certify it in writing.

And if it prevents the death and injury of just a few innocent kids (and adults) why do you feel it's not worth the effort and bureaucratic imposition?

If you put a car on the road you should know how to drive it. If you put a gun in your home, or in your pocket, you should know how it works and how to use it. That seems reasonable to me.

As to your suggestion about training in schools, while that would be a very good source of general information it would not provide critical information about the specific mechanics of the many hundreds of different firearms on today's market. It should be up to the individual who is interested in owning a specific gun to learn how to safely handle it and properly use it.

Yep...thought so......do you really consider a "Child" as a 20 year old gang member......and keep in mind...this is a Pediatric journal passing off this crap as actual research....

Yeah....thanks for trying....go back and find some real research.....

Study shows 10 000 youth injured or killed each year in the U.S. by firearms


The study refers to children as anyone 20 years old and younger, a fact that could prove to be somewhat misleading or confusing at best.

The age of the victim seemed to have a profound result on the type of injury they suffered as well. For example, accidental shootings were more prevalent among children under the age of five. These cases often lead to brain and spinal cord injuries with devastating and life-changing results.

Homicide cases, however, were more prevalent in the 18- to 20-year-old range, a range which one could reasonably argue is not youth or childhood, as in most states 18-year-olds are legal adults. Nevertheless, according to a study previously published in Pediatrics, this is an age that is already commonly marked by high rates of violent behavior. And that violent behavior, as noted nearly 20 years ago, is increasing in younger ages as well.

A study by the National Institute of Mental Health shows that “rates of death by injury between ages 15 to 19 are about six times that of the rate between ages 10 and 14” and indicates that the still-developing brain of the adolescent – complete with the constant ups and downs that accompany that — may have a factor in those injuries. “In key ways, the brain doesn’t look like that of an adult until the early 20s,” the study states.

So.......18-20 year old Toddlers huh............do they still wear diapers as well...?

 

[Agit8r]

There is a constitutional protection for law abiding and competent adults to own weapons suitable to defend themselves from likely threats to their person and property, but there may be various limits to that right (DC v. Heller).

The most productive limitation would be a banning on the new manufacture of clips beyond 15 rounds, along with the classification of existing clips of greater than 15 rounds as a destructive devise under FOPA, subject to the same tax stamp requirements as machine guns.

After all, the classical definition of tyranny is having the lives of the many being at the mercy of a madman.

Yeah...you realize that would be stupid and pointless right...considering how easily French criminals get fully automatic rifles and 30 round magazines in a country that doesn't allow law abiding French citizens to have any guns.....and you expect our criminals to not be able to get any magazine they want.....

And mass shooters.....the Church shooter.....changed magazines 5 times, the Santa Barbara shooter, used the 10 round legal magazines allowed in California...

So again...pointless and unnecessary and only affects the law abiding.....

Why do you guys never look beyond the first step of your "solution" to what happens after you implement it.......it would save a lot of typing on our part.....

Anders Breivik got his clips from sources here in the US. These were floating around the internet precisely because they are commonplace, and the seller didn't have to pay $200 a piece, per year, to keep them in his inventory. Will some slip through the cracks? Sure. But at least we should make these socially retarded would-be spree-shooters work for it. How many of these types will survive long enough in the ghettos to purchase what they want? Probably none of them would have.

 

[2aguy]

[...]

How does the tiny % of guns and gun owners that misuse their firearms create a compelling state interest where it must have on record the identity and whereabouts of everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms in order to protect the rights of the people?

How does the even tinier % of guns and gun owners involved in an accidental shooting create a compelling state interest where it must require that everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms undergo some sort of state-specified training in order to protect the rights of the people?[...]

Either your statistical source is somewhat distorted or your concerns are rather casual.

(Excerpt)

A study published Monday in Pediatrics, the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, revealed that a startling 10,000 children in the U.S. are either injured or killed in gun-related incidents each year, NBC reports.

According to the study, more than 7,000 kids visit the emergency room annually, or about 20 each day, due to gun-related injuries and another 3,000 die before they ever even make it to the hospital. The majority – about half — of those injuries and deaths are the result of assault, while less than 25 percent are due to accidents and under 300 cases – less than 3 percent — are ruled to be from attempted suicide.

Study shows 10 000 youth injured or killed each year in the U.S. by firearms

(Close)

We don't want cars on the road which are driven by those who have not demonstrated their competence and knowledge of the rules. The same requirement should apply to guns.

Gun dealers should be responsible for ensuring that a person to whom he hands over a firearm -- a lethal weapon, understands how to use it, how it works, and how to properly safeguard it. It would take just a few minutes to make such a determination and certify it in writing.

And if it prevents the death and injury of just a few innocent kids (and adults) why do you feel it's not worth the effort and bureaucratic imposition?

If you put a car on the road you should know how to drive it. If you put a gun in your home, or in your pocket, you should know how it works and how to use it. That seems reasonable to me.

As to your suggestion about training in schools, while that would be a very good source of general information it would not provide critical information about the specific mechanics of the many hundreds of different firearms on today's market. It should be up to the individual who is interested in owning a specific gun to learn how to safely handle it and properly use it.

again...the right to arms is just that...A Right......and with more Americans owning and carrying guns for protection the gun murder rate, and the accidental gun death rate are going down, not up....it is not a problem......

Again..in a country of over 320 million people....only 505 people died from accidental gun deaths in 2013........

falling killed far more people....cars killed far more people.......