Hitler, Fascism and the right wing

[Discombobulated]

So we have proven that fascist and para-fascist leaders can definitely be right.wing, no?

No, you haven proven shit. As always, all you have done is quote some pinko history professor spewing his totally unsupported opinion that Franco was right-wing.

You're a child really, aren't you?

Everything just comes down to "I won't read. I won't research. I won't learn" Learning is pinko! Reading is pinko!

Explain the differences between Stalins government and Hitlers. C'mon child. You make big statements but then can't back them up.

Historians have already done that for you.....try reading a book some time.

 

[Discombobulated]

BriPat -

If you are interested in Franco's economics - read. Research. Learn.

I am not going to cut and paste 25 pages of details on Franco's evonomic policy, because you won't read it, and everyone sensible person here knows that Franco was right-wing and a capitalist anyway.

Your policy of screaming "Show me the proof!" followed closely by "I won't read that, it might be pinko!" is childish beyond words.

You don't WANT proof. You on't want facts. You certinly don't want objectivity.

What you want is to keep your fantasy world afloat, and you know facts will sink it.

People like that couldn't possibly care less about facts or truth, childish rhetoric and simple minded dogma is all they really need to keep them going.

 

[Discombobulated]

So we have proven that fascist and para-fascist leaders can definitely be right.wing, no?

No, you haven proven shit. As always, all you have done is quote some pinko history professor spewing his totally unsupported opinion that Franco was right-wing.

You're a child really, aren't you?

Everything just comes down to "I won't read. I won't research. I won't learn" Learning is pinko! Reading is pinko!

He's one of two people on my ignore list, the thread looks a lot better without him.

 

[Saigon]

In the interests of fair play, here is a list of the books mentioned in this thread:

Eichmann in Jerusalem - Hannah Arendt
The Nazi Dictatorship - Ian Kershaw
Hubris - Ian Kershaw (two volume biography of Hitler)
Nemesis - Ian Kershaw (two volume biography of Hitler)
The Nazi Economic Recovery - Richard Overy
War and Economy in the Third Reich - Richard Overy
Ordinary Men - Christopher Browning
Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar - Simon Sebag Montefiore (Biography of Stalin)
The Holocaust in History - Michael Marris

All are available in any good bookstore, or online.

And since BriPat is so worried about pinkos, this is a an overview of one of the people who has refused outright to even consider reading:

Background
Kershaw was born into a Roman Catholic family in Oldham, Lancashire, England, to Joseph Kershaw and Alice Robinson. He was educated at St Bede's College, Manchester, the University of Liverpool (BA) and Merton College, Oxford (D.Phil). He was originally trained as a medievalist but turned to the study of modern German social history in the 1970s. At first, he was mainly concerned with the economic history of Bolton Abbey. As a lecturer in medieval history at Manchester, Kershaw learnt German to study the German peasantry in the Middle Ages.[3] In 1972, he visited Bavaria and was shocked to hear the views of an old man he met in a Munich café who told him: "You English were so foolish. If only you had sided with us. Together we could have defeated Bolshevism and ruled the earth!"—adding in for good measure that "The Jew is a louse!"[3] As a result of this incident, Kershaw became keen to learn how and why ordinary people in Germany could support the Nazi ideology (National Socialism or Nazism).[3]

Honours and memberships

• Fellow of the British Academy
• Co-Winner of the British Academy Book Prize, 2001[63]
• Fellow of the Royal Historical Society
• Member of the Historical Association
• Fellow of the Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin[64]
• 2002, Knighthood for Services to History[65]
• 2004, A collection of scholarly essays in Honour of Sir Ian Kershaw was published.[66]
• 2005, Elizabeth Longford Prize for Historical Biography for Making Friends with Hitler: Lord Londonderry, the Nazis, and the Road to War

Published work

• Bolton Priory Rentals and Ministers; Accounts, 1473–1539, (ed.) (Leeds, 1969)
• Bolton Priory. The Economy of a Northern Monastery, (Oxford, 1973).
• "The Persecution of the Jews and German Popular Opinion in the Third Reich" pages 261–289 from Yearbook of the Leo Baeck Institute, Volume 26, 1981.
• Popular Opinion and Political Dissent in the Third Reich. Bavaria, 1933–45, (Oxford, 1983, rev. 2002), ISBN 0-19-821922-9
• The Nazi Dictatorship. Problems and Perspectives of Interpretation, (London, 1985, 4th ed., 2000) ISBN 0-340-76028-1
• The 'Hitler Myth'. Image and Reality in the Third Reich (Oxford, 1987, rev. 2001). ISBN 0-19-280206-2
• Weimar. Why did German Democracy Fail?, (ed.) (London, 1990) ISBN 0-312-04470-4
• Hitler: A Profile in Power, (London, 1991, rev. 2001)
• "'Improvised genocide?' The Emergence of the 'Final Solution' in the 'Wargenthau" pages 51–78 from Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, Volume 2, December 1992.
• "Working Towards the Führer: Reflections on the Nature of the Hitler Dictatorship" pages 103–118 from Contemporary European History, Volume 2, Issue #2, 1993; reprinted on pages 231–252 from The Third Reich edited by Christian Leitz, London: Blackwell, 1999, ISBN 0-631-20700-7.
• Stalinism and Nazism: Dictatorships in Comparison, (ed. with Moshe Lewin) (Cambridge, 1997) ISBN 0-521-56521-9
• Hitler 1889–1936: Hubris, (London, 1998) ISBN 0-393-32035-9
• Hitler 1936–1945: Nemesis, (London, 2000) ISBN 0-393-32252-1
• The Bolton Priory Compotus 1286–1325 (ed. with David Smith) (London, 2001)
• Making Friends with Hitler: Lord Londonderry and the British Road to War, (London, 2004) ISBN 0-7139-9717-6
• "Europe's Second Thirty Years War" pages 10–17 from History Today, Volume 55, Issue # 9, September 2005
• Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions That Changed the World, 1940–1941 (London, 2007) ISBN 1-59420-123-4
• Hitler, The Germans, and the Final Solution (Yale, 2008) ISBN 0-300-12427-9
• Hitler (one-volume abridgment of Hitler 1889–1936 and Hitler 1936–1945; London, 2008) ISBN 1-84614-069-2
• Luck of the Devil The Story of Operation Valkyrie, (London: Penguin Books, 2009), ISBN 0-14-104006-8
• The End: Hitler's Germany 1944-45, (Allen Lane, 2011), ISBN 0-7139-9716-8

Ian Kershaw - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I call that a fairly solid CV, myself. I challenge anyone to read one of those books and say they found anythng biased, false or 'pinko' in it.

 

[bripat9643]

In the interests of fair play, here is a list of the books mentioned in this thread:

Eichmann in Jerusalem - Hannah Arendt
The Nazi Dictatorship - Ian Kershaw
Hubris - Ian Kershaw (two volume biography of Hitler)
Nemesis - Ian Kershaw (two volume biography of Hitler)
The Nazi Economic Recovery - Richard Overy
War and Economy in the Third Reich - Richard Overy
Ordinary Men - Christopher Browning
Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar - Simon Sebag Montefiore (Biography of Stalin)
The Holocaust in History - Michael Marris

All are available in any good bookstore, or online.

And since BriPat is so worried about pinkos, this is a an overview of one of the people who has refused outright to even consider reading:

Background
Kershaw was born into a Roman Catholic family in Oldham, Lancashire, England, to Joseph Kershaw and Alice Robinson. He was educated at St Bede's College, Manchester, the University of Liverpool (BA) and Merton College, Oxford (D.Phil). He was originally trained as a medievalist but turned to the study of modern German social history in the 1970s. At first, he was mainly concerned with the economic history of Bolton Abbey. As a lecturer in medieval history at Manchester, Kershaw learnt German to study the German peasantry in the Middle Ages.[3] In 1972, he visited Bavaria and was shocked to hear the views of an old man he met in a Munich café who told him: "You English were so foolish. If only you had sided with us. Together we could have defeated Bolshevism and ruled the earth!"—adding in for good measure that "The Jew is a louse!"[3] As a result of this incident, Kershaw became keen to learn how and why ordinary people in Germany could support the Nazi ideology (National Socialism or Nazism).[3]

Honours and memberships

• Fellow of the British Academy
• Co-Winner of the British Academy Book Prize, 2001[63]
• Fellow of the Royal Historical Society
• Member of the Historical Association
• Fellow of the Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin[64]
• 2002, Knighthood for Services to History[65]
• 2004, A collection of scholarly essays in Honour of Sir Ian Kershaw was published.[66]
• 2005, Elizabeth Longford Prize for Historical Biography for Making Friends with Hitler: Lord Londonderry, the Nazis, and the Road to War

Published work

• Bolton Priory Rentals and Ministers; Accounts, 1473–1539, (ed.) (Leeds, 1969)
• Bolton Priory. The Economy of a Northern Monastery, (Oxford, 1973).
• "The Persecution of the Jews and German Popular Opinion in the Third Reich" pages 261–289 from Yearbook of the Leo Baeck Institute, Volume 26, 1981.
• Popular Opinion and Political Dissent in the Third Reich. Bavaria, 1933–45, (Oxford, 1983, rev. 2002), ISBN 0-19-821922-9
• The Nazi Dictatorship. Problems and Perspectives of Interpretation, (London, 1985, 4th ed., 2000) ISBN 0-340-76028-1
• The 'Hitler Myth'. Image and Reality in the Third Reich (Oxford, 1987, rev. 2001). ISBN 0-19-280206-2
• Weimar. Why did German Democracy Fail?, (ed.) (London, 1990) ISBN 0-312-04470-4
• Hitler: A Profile in Power, (London, 1991, rev. 2001)
• "'Improvised genocide?' The Emergence of the 'Final Solution' in the 'Wargenthau" pages 51–78 from Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, Volume 2, December 1992.
• "Working Towards the Führer: Reflections on the Nature of the Hitler Dictatorship" pages 103–118 from Contemporary European History, Volume 2, Issue #2, 1993; reprinted on pages 231–252 from The Third Reich edited by Christian Leitz, London: Blackwell, 1999, ISBN 0-631-20700-7.
• Stalinism and Nazism: Dictatorships in Comparison, (ed. with Moshe Lewin) (Cambridge, 1997) ISBN 0-521-56521-9
• Hitler 1889–1936: Hubris, (London, 1998) ISBN 0-393-32035-9
• Hitler 1936–1945: Nemesis, (London, 2000) ISBN 0-393-32252-1
• The Bolton Priory Compotus 1286–1325 (ed. with David Smith) (London, 2001)
• Making Friends with Hitler: Lord Londonderry and the British Road to War, (London, 2004) ISBN 0-7139-9717-6
• "Europe's Second Thirty Years War" pages 10–17 from History Today, Volume 55, Issue # 9, September 2005
• Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions That Changed the World, 1940–1941 (London, 2007) ISBN 1-59420-123-4
• Hitler, The Germans, and the Final Solution (Yale, 2008) ISBN 0-300-12427-9
• Hitler (one-volume abridgment of Hitler 1889–1936 and Hitler 1936–1945; London, 2008) ISBN 1-84614-069-2
• Luck of the Devil The Story of Operation Valkyrie, (London: Penguin Books, 2009), ISBN 0-14-104006-8
• The End: Hitler's Germany 1944-45, (Allen Lane, 2011), ISBN 0-7139-9716-8

Ian Kershaw - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I call that a fairly solid CV, myself. I challenge anyone to read one of those books and say they found anything biased, false or 'pinko' in it.

None of that proves that any of those authors are not pinkos. If you support handing more control of the economy over to the government, then you're a pinko. End of story.

One thing you're great at is posting lots of trivia that sounds intellectual and pertinent but is really just irrelevant bullshit.

 

[dcraelin]

The writings and attitude of Orwell are manipulated by this author to misrepresent his position.

How so?

It makes it seem that Orwell supported Hitlers movement....in fact he was an early critic, from the things I've read, one of which I posted earlier. Orwell was also critical of Communism even tho I believe he considered himself a socialist.

I seem to remember Orwell having an epiphany during the Spanish Civil War....?

On communism perhaps....He was undoubtedly a critic of Hitler before....and Hitler was supporting Franco of course.

So we have proven that fascist and para-fascist leaders can definitely be right.wing, no?

No, you haven proven shit. As always, all you have done is quote some pinko history professor spewing his totally unsupported opinion that Franco was right-wing.

You're a child really, aren't you?
Everything just comes down to "I won't read. I won't research. I won't learn" Learning is pinko! Reading is pinko!

Explain the differences between Stalins government and Hitlers. C'mon child. You make big statements but then can't back them up.

For one thing Stalins government had its roots in a genuine leftist movement, Stalin probably believed somewhat, at least in the beginning, in the marxist ideology, Hitler probably never did, or to the extent he did it was really secondary to his belief in a mystic German superiority and past the "founding fathers" and socialism was used just as rhetoric in service of his Military and industrial backers. Stalin was also tho pretty far from a genuine leftist. Lenin sort of highjacked the original movement. Stalin strayed even further away. In the end they were pretty close systems, both totalitarian thuggish governments. But that doesnt mean its right to call them socialist.

In fact there is a very widely used tactic among far right groups which is to misuse words for political gain.

Yep, The federalists were not really federalists, they were nationalists. The american far-right has also tried to morph the meaning of Republican...to claim a difference between Republic and Democracy when none really exists.

 

[bripat9643]

So we have proven that fascist and para-fascist leaders can definitely be right.wing, no?

No, you haven proven shit. As always, all you have done is quote some pinko history professor spewing his totally unsupported opinion that Franco was right-wing.

You're a child really, aren't you?

Everything just comes down to "I won't read. I won't research. I won't learn" Learning is pinko! Reading is pinko!

Explain the differences between Stalins government and Hitlers. C'mon child. You make big statements but then can't back them up.

Historians have already done that for you.....try reading a book some time.

But you can't quote any of them explaining it, can you?

 

[bripat9643]

So we have proven that fascist and para-fascist leaders can definitely be right.wing, no?

No, you haven proven shit. As always, all you have done is quote some pinko history professor spewing his totally unsupported opinion that Franco was right-wing.

You're a child really, aren't you?

Everything just comes down to "I won't read. I won't research. I won't learn" Learning is pinko! Reading is pinko!

He's one of two people on my ignore list, the thread looks a lot better without him.

I'm on his ignore list, but he's constantly replying to my posts. What does that tell you?

 

[Saigon]

None of that proves that any of those authors are not pinkos. If you support handing more control of the economy over to the government, then you're a pinko. End of story.

What evidence is there that Kershaw is a pinko?

None. None whatsoever.

So we know that that is not the reason you avoid his books.

I think it is fairly obvious that you avoid reading Kershaw because you know perfectly well that you will be unable to deny Hitler's position on the right wing if you do.

 

[Discombobulated]

None of that proves that any of those authors are not pinkos. If you support handing more control of the economy over to the government, then you're a pinko. End of story.

What evidence is there that Kershaw is a pinko?

None. None whatsoever.

So we know that that is not the reason you avoid his books.

I think it is fairly obvious that you avoid reading Kershaw because you know perfectly well that you will be unable to deny Hitler's position on the right wing if you do.

There's really no need to make these distinctions or even argue at all. The burden of proof is entirely on the people who want to overturn actual history. They have yet to provide any, so simple minded rhetoric is all they have to fall back on. That's as far as their so called arguments take them.

 

[bripat9643]

None of that proves that any of those authors are not pinkos. If you support handing more control of the economy over to the government, then you're a pinko. End of story.

What evidence is there that Kershaw is a pinko?

None. None whatsoever.

So we know that that is not the reason you avoid his books.

I think it is fairly obvious that you avoid reading Kershaw because you know perfectly well that you will be unable to deny Hitler's position on the right wing if you do.

There's no evidence either way in his entry in Wikipedia. He seems to avoid discussing economic concepts at all costs. However, his ideas are full of the usual leftwing babble that seems to have meaning but in reality means nothing.

However, since about 95% of all history professors are pinkos, it's highly unlikely that he isn't one himself.

 

[bripat9643]

None of that proves that any of those authors are not pinkos. If you support handing more control of the economy over to the government, then you're a pinko. End of story.

What evidence is there that Kershaw is a pinko?

None. None whatsoever.

So we know that that is not the reason you avoid his books.

I think it is fairly obvious that you avoid reading Kershaw because you know perfectly well that you will be unable to deny Hitler's position on the right wing if you do.

There's really no need to make these distinctions or even argue at all. The burden of proof is entirely on the people who want to overturn actual history. They have yet to provide any, so simple minded rhetoric is all they have to fall back on. That's as far as their so called arguments take them.

It's been proven a dozen times over in this thread, numskull.

 

[Saigon]

He seems to avoid discussing economic concepts at all costs. However, his ideas are full of the usual leftwing babble that seems to have meaning but in reality means nothing.

I suggest you read the books first - tell us what they said second.

We both know that you won't, and we both know why.

btw, Kershaw is usually considered mildly conservative. He's about as pinko as you are.

 

[bripat9643]

He seems to avoid discussing economic concepts at all costs. However, his ideas are full of the usual leftwing babble that seems to have meaning but in reality means nothing.

I suggest you read the books first - tell us what they said second.

We both know that you won't, and we both know why.

btw, Kershaw is usually considered mildly conservative. He's about as pinko as you are.

ROFL! Sorry, but I'm not going to read a bunch of ponderous tombs that don't even discuss the economics of the Nazi Reich. If these books prove what you claim, then you should be able to quote the parts that support your claims. So far you have been singularly unable to produce any such quotes.

Furthermore, all the people you cited are historians, not economists. On the other hand, my side has quoted a number of world renowned economist who state that the fascism is a form of socialism. Who should we believe in the matter of Nazi economics, a bunch of pinko historians or actual economists?

"Go read a book" is the argument of a loser.

 

[Saigon]

BriPat -

Yes, I could go spend the entire day going through the books and typing out entire chapters for you to dismiss out of hand. But I'm not going to.

I just don't believe you are in the slightest bit interested, and if you are, you'll read the book. You can read more about it here:

Hitler 1889-1936 Hubris Ian Kershaw 9780393320350 Amazon.com Books

 

[bripat9643]

BriPat -

Yes, I could go spend the entire day going through the books and typing out entire chapters for you to dismiss out of hand. But I'm not going to.

I just don't believe you are in the slightest bit interested, and if you are, you'll read the book. You can read more about it here:

Hitler 1889-1936 Hubris Ian Kershaw 9780393320350 Amazon.com Books

ROFL. Why does it take entire chapters? You obviously have nothing to quote. Your authors probably spend hundreds of pages weaseling around the issue but never get to the point. That's because if they did the facts wouldn't support your case.

"Go read a book" is an argument for losers.

 

[Discombobulated]

He seems to avoid discussing economic concepts at all costs. However, his ideas are full of the usual leftwing babble that seems to have meaning but in reality means nothing.

I suggest you read the books first - tell us what they said second.

We both know that you won't, and we both know why.

btw, Kershaw is usually considered mildly conservative. He's about as pinko as you are.

He's a prisoner of his own tiny little mind. He can't be taught, he can't learn, he's a lost cause.

 

[regent]

We would think that after all this time and all the histories written that most Americans would have at least a slight understanding of fascism, Hitler, the night of the long knives and so forth, but politics comes first and the historical truth is left far behind.

 

[Political Junky]

BriPat -

Yes, I could go spend the entire day going through the books and typing out entire chapters for you to dismiss out of hand. But I'm not going to.

I just don't believe you are in the slightest bit interested, and if you are, you'll read the book. You can read more about it here:

Hitler 1889-1936 Hubris Ian Kershaw 9780393320350 Amazon.com Books

BriPat wants you to feed him information, as his pundits on the Right do. He's not one to think for himself, and he's not alone.

 

[bripat9643]

He seems to avoid discussing economic concepts at all costs. However, his ideas are full of the usual leftwing babble that seems to have meaning but in reality means nothing.

I suggest you read the books first - tell us what they said second.

We both know that you won't, and we both know why.

btw, Kershaw is usually considered mildly conservative. He's about as pinko as you are.

He's a prisoner of his own tiny little mind. He can't be taught, he can't learn, he's a lost cause.

That's the libturd way of saying that I'm immune to bullshit and propaganda.