Hillary needs to burn in political hell...

[Care4all]

Obama has known ALL ALONG that Hillary, would be going to the Super delegates, wooing for their votes, after the final primary contest elections were done.

This was yesterday....last night that the elections ended.

Obama knew this, and wanted to hurt her chance of doing this....a political position that I don't blame him for taking, but PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DON'T be saying she cut off his limelite in a historical moment when it is HIM who cut off her chance and her moment.

First, he started calling all of the super delegates that had said that they would support him when the actual state primary contests were over....YES OVER, to pledge their support for him BEFORE the contest was over so that he could go over the top of what total delegates needed, with the ACTUAL pledged delegates from the people in Montana and south Carolina....

It became obvious to him that he would not be able to meet the number of delegates that he needed through the vote of the people, thru the pledged delegates so, he called upon his friends to bring him over the number needed by getting the super delegates to support him early, so to come to the number and SQUASH HILLARY'S MOMENT.....

His whole AMMO has been to CUT OFF this election before it was over, cut off the votes before they were counted and cut off the super delegates from their DUTIES by the Rules...which allows the super delegates to change their minds all the way up to the convention.....THOSE ARE THE RULES.

If Obama had received ENOUGH of the pledged delegates to win his nomination without the use of help of Super delegates this contest would be 100% over......but he didn't receive enough pledged delegates to do such, THEREFORE she has every right, as close as she is, to make her pleas and woo those superdelegates to change their minds and come back to supporting her again or to get the Obama delegates to just switch...

She also has 57 votes that went to obama that were not suppose to according to Michigan Law that she should have the option to woo according to the rules....she still has reserved the right of appeal ACCORDING TO THE RULES.

The REASON Obama won is because of the super tuesday caucuses.

The Democratic Party REWARDS CAUCUSES with more delegates per person than they do with Primaries won because caucuses is where their loyal dems live....cities, more populated areas of democratic voters...

THIS IS WHY Hillary has more of the popular vote and not the delegates to go with it....

it is an archaic delegate/caucus math, that the democratic party has in place does not represent the votes of the people EQUALLY.

Anyway, Obama did not want Hillary to have this moment to close her campaign, thank her voters, woo the super delegates and he snubbed her, she did NOT snub him..

Obama has plenty of time to declare his victory, this was the only time she had with her voters and supporters left....after a very long and enduring, stressful and successful campaign that garnered MORE than half the dnc primary voters.

He owed Hillary this moment and owed her supporters this moment and owed her the courtesy of following the rules and allowing the superdelegate wooing that she wants to try to do....ALL IN THE RULES......of course this is not what the DNC wants or Obama, they have been calling this thing over since february, while the voters continued to support her more than him since....

Anyway, as Jillian has stated, i am sure some deals will be made to try to work all of this out, but if i were Hillary, I would not let them just push me out, as they have been doing since february and finalized it with changing the Certified votes of the people in Michigan and giving them to Obama as pledged delegates....including the votes cast for undecided, Biden and Edwards, and 4 other delegates from hillary.

Obama has the votes that McGovern and Kerry had....the Dem caucus people, they both lost their election.

Care

 

[Care4all]

Obama's policies are little different than Clinton's. He didn't run a campaign that was any dirtier than Clinton's (neither was particularly dirty, but most pundits would say that she crossed the line more than he). He seems like a decent human being - never charged with a crime or anything like that.

What exactly is it about Obama that you dislike so much?

That depends on the view you got....Hillary campers will say that the Obama camp and Obama played much dirtier and more viscious than the Hillary camp...I am one of them, as you are one that thinks the opposite.

care

 

[Larkinn]

Obama has known ALL ALONG that Hillary, would be going to the Super delegates, wooing for their votes, after the final primary contest elections were done.

This was yesterday....last night that the elections ended.

Really? Except for Hillary surrogates saying that she would concede and such.

Obama knew this, and wanted to hurt her chance of doing this....a political position that I don't blame him for taking, but PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DON'T be saying she cut off his limelite in a historical moment when it is HIM who cut off her chance and her moment.

She lost, and has no chance or moment. He hasn't cut into anything, because it doesn't exist for her.

First, he started calling all of the super delegates that had said that they would support him when the actual state primary contests were over....YES OVER, to pledge their support for him BEFORE the contest was over so that he could go over the top of what total delegates needed, with the ACTUAL pledged delegates from the people in Montana and south Carolina....

South Carolina's been over a long time from now.

And yes, he wanted the contest to be over before their, what 31 votes or something?, were in. In a contest where over 4,000 delegates exist, their 31 aren't exactly a game changer.

It became obvious to him that he would not be able to meet the number of delegates that he needed through the vote of the people, thru the pledged delegates so, he called upon his friends to bring him over the number needed by getting the super delegates to support him early, so to come to the number and SQUASH HILLARY'S MOMENT.....

Hillary's moment of losing? What exactly do you envision Hillary's moment being? Shes had a lot of good moments during this campaign, but winning South Dakota isn't exactly a coup for her.

His whole AMMO has been to CUT OFF this election before it was over, cut off the votes before they were counted and cut off the super delegates from their DUTIES by the Rules...which allows the super delegates to change their minds all the way up to the convention.....THOSE ARE THE RULES.

And now your just lying. When did he say super delegates can't change their mind? They can, but they rarely do. Tell me why exactly a mass of super delegates would go to the presumptive winner and change to the presumptive loser?

Hint: They won't.

If Obama had received ENOUGH of the pledged delegates to win his nomination without the use of help of Super delegates this contest would be 100% over......but he didn't receive enough pledged delegates to do such, THEREFORE she has every right, as close as she is, to make her pleas and woo those superdelegates to change their minds and come back to supporting her again or to get the Obama delegates to just switch...

Its 100% over. Hillary has gotten very few, if any, defections from the Obama camp. And now with his lead, there is no chance for them to defect now.

She also has 57 votes that went to obama that were not suppose to according to Michigan Law that she should have the option to woo according to the rules....she still has reserved the right of appeal ACCORDING TO THE RULES.

Michigan law is not relevant here. The DNC can do whatever they want about delegates.

The REASON Obama won is because of the super tuesday caucuses.

He won because of a lot of reasons.

The Democratic Party REWARDS CAUCUSES with more delegates per person than they do with Primaries won because caucuses is where their loyal dems live....cities, more populated areas of democratic voters...

THIS IS WHY Hillary has more of the popular vote and not the delegates to go with it....

I agree with Reilly. How you want to count the votes makes it unclear who won. Its dishonest to say that Hillary won the popular vote.

it is an archaic delegate/caucus math, that the democratic party has in place does not represent the votes of the people EQUALLY.

Well maybe we could force the states to change it? Nope, WHOOPS, we can't. Why not? Because YOU claim the DNC can't force states to do anything.

Oh, and by the way, whether its a caucus or a primary is STATE law, not DNC law.

Anyway, Obama did not want Hillary to have this moment to close her campaign, thank her voters, woo the super delegates and he snubbed her, she did NOT snub him..

Umm, no.

Obama has plenty of time to declare his victory, this was the only time she had with her voters and supporters left....after a very long and enduring, stressful and successful campaign that garnered MORE than half the dnc primary voters.

Except with the vitriol coming from people like you who will try to backstab him all the way to the convention, he needs to start ASAP.

He owed Hillary this moment and owed her supporters this moment and owed her the courtesy of following the rules and allowing the superdelegate wooing that she wants to try to do....ALL IN THE RULES......of course this is not what the DNC wants or Obama, they have been calling this thing over since february, while the voters continued to support her more than him since....

Honestly, he doesn't owe her jack shit. The only reason she is still in this thing is to try to blackmail Obama.

 

[Ravi]

Here are two. He made race an issue. He was either biracial or black, depending which audience he wanted to please at the time. To me, a guy that wants to be above race shouldn't be using race in this manner. Another was that he sat in his church for twenty years, pretended he didn't know what was being preached, acted all surprised and said he didn't agree with it, distanced himself from his pastor, and finally quit the church. From all appearances he only used the church.

 

[Care4all]

I think that he will lose the general as McGovern and Kerry....he is garnering the same type of voters...they don't go out and vote, but the meat and potatoes of America does....

I think he will be chewed up and spit out when the actual Vetting of the candidate takes place in the general elections....whereas i believe that Hillary is stronger and more of a leader than him....and would bring a Democratic victory in Novemeber.

He may not lose, if he can capture the voters he has purposely rejected and spat out during the primary by wooing them to him....but that seems near impossible at this point,

I'm no fortune teller.... so we will see....

 

[ReillyT]

That depends on the view you got....Hillary campers will say that the Obama camp and Obama played much dirtier and more viscious than the Hillary camp...I am one of them, as you are one that thinks the opposite.

care

I don't think either one played particularly dirty. I think that people's view of who ran the dirtier campaign are tied to who they support. I don't think there has been much objectivity shown.

 

[ReillyT]

Here are two. He made race an issue. He was either biracial or black, depending which audience he wanted to please at the time. To me, a guy that wants to be above race shouldn't be using race in this manner. Another was that he sat in his church for twenty years, pretended he didn't know what was being preached, acted all surprised and said he didn't agree with it, distanced himself from his pastor, and finally quit the church. From all appearances he only used the church.

He is biracial and black. He can't help to make that an issue. It is part of who he is and his experience, and he is a historical candidate just for this reason. It isn't much different than Clinton pointing out she is a woman, or Bill Clinton pointing out he is from Hope, Arkansas. This isn't what he means when he says he wants to transcend race.

Perhaps he did use the Church to gain political advantage in Chicago and dropped it when it became a serious political liability. However, he did show a certain amount of loyalty until the politics made his continued affiliation untenable. I still can't see how this distinguishes him from Clinton, whom you support. I like Clinton, but she has certainly used her past selectively, and I don't see that his feigned ignorance about what was being preached at Trinity (and we don't even know how often this inflammatory message was preached) is any worse than her recollections of sniper fire. If you can overlook that with Clinton, I don't know why it is so difficult to overlook elements of Obama (or McCain's) past.

 

[ReillyT]

He may not lose, if he can capture the voters he has purposely rejected and spat out during the primary by wooing them to him....but that seems near impossible at this point,

Now you are actually marginalizing Clinton. Obama didn't reject or spit out any group of voters. He tried very hard to appeal to Latinos, the elderly and the white working class voters of the midwest. That he partially failed is a reflection of how good a candidate Clinton was, not a reflection of lack of effort.

 

[Jeepers]

I don't think either one played particularly dirty. I think that people's view of who ran the dirtier campaign are tied to who they support. I don't think there has been much objectivity shown.

Hill was definitely pulling every trick in the book.. I feel this way not because I am an Obama supporter. I started out in her camp, and frankly her negativity drove me from her camp... that and her campaigns use of race... All of the talking heads this morning are talking about how amazing it is the he ran a positive campaign staying above the fray and out of the gutter...

 

[Anguille]

Yeah.. workin as a comunity organizer in chicago after graduating from central community college... oops.. sorry.. Harvard... hes a phoney alright.. He by the was thrust into the national spotlight after being hand picked by Kerry ... You know dick about this man and your aforementioned quote shows it..

I give Obama credit for working as a community organizer but his association with Rezko seems too shady to me to ignore. That he once considered Jeremiah Wright a father figure is troublesome and that he or anyone running for president feels they have to belong to a church at all annoys me.
I give him the benefit of the doubt, he has done a lot of good things even if he does come off as a bit of a phony.

 

[ReillyT]

Hill was definitely pulling every trick in the book.. I feel this way not because I am an Obama supporter. I started out in her camp, and frankly her negativity drove me from her camp... that and her campaigns use of race... All of the talking heads this morning are talking about how amazing it is the he ran a positive campaign staying above the fray and out of the gutter...

Her campaign only brought up race a few times in the campaign, and rather innocuously. We didn't see any Wilie Horton ads. We didn't see Clinton saying that the country wasn't ready to elect a black president. It was sprinkled throughout the campaign, but that is to be expected when you have the first viable black presidential candidate. I think on the whole, both campaigns played it reasonably well. If Clinton went a little dirtier a little earlier, it was because this would help her more than it would help him. Obama couldn't do the same thing with his central message of unity and post-Washington politics (although his supporters took a few shots).

 

[Larkinn]

Hill was definitely pulling every trick in the book.. I feel this way not because I am an Obama supporter. I started out in her camp, and frankly her negativity drove me from her camp... that and her campaigns use of race... All of the talking heads this morning are talking about how amazing it is the he ran a positive campaign staying above the fray and out of the gutter...

I agree that Hillary played a much dirtier campaign, and honestly this is one of the reasons I don't support her. I started out an Obama fan, switched to Hillary in about Jan/Feb, and then switched back in part because of the negativity.

 

[Larkinn]

By the way Care,

Can you explain how Obama "snubbed" Hillary considering he spent 286 words in his speech honoring her?

 

[jillian]

Hill was definitely pulling every trick in the book.. I feel this way not because I am an Obama supporter. I started out in her camp, and frankly her negativity drove me from her camp... that and her campaigns use of race... All of the talking heads this morning are talking about how amazing it is the he ran a positive campaign staying above the fray and out of the gutter...

Her name is Hillary. Do you call Barack "Bar"? Obama didn't have to go negative, he had his surrogates do it for him so he *could* largely stay above the fray. He needs to do that. It's his one selling point. McCain and Clinton have others. His one ace in the hole is that he's a "new kind of politician".

But if he thinks the McCain people are going to pussyfoot around him like the dems did, he's sadly mistaken and he and his supporters had better get used to fighting back.

 

[jillian]

I don't think either one played particularly dirty. I think that people's view of who ran the dirtier campaign are tied to who they support. I don't think there has been much objectivity shown.

I think this one was pretty polite compared to Bush's campaigns in 2000 and 2004. But I don't think it's going to stay polite now that the repubs are going to go head to head with Obama. In fact, as I alluded to above, I think he "ain't seen nothing yet". He's going to see 527 corps doing 24/7 loops of Rev Wright and Michelle. She isn't an asset to him and that's a problem. (Not that Bill is an asset to Hillary at this point either).

 

[Ravi]

I think this one was pretty polite compared to Bush's campaigns in 2000 and 2004. But I don't think it's going to stay polite now that the repubs are going to go head to head with Obama. In fact, as I alluded to above, I think he "ain't seen nothing yet". He's going to see 527 corps doing 24/7 loops of Rev Wright and Michelle. She isn't an asset to him and that's a problem. (Not that Bill is an asset to Hillary at this point either).

I wonder if Obama would throw her under the bus? Probably not, but his actions with his church makes me think the possibility exists.

 

[Larkinn]

Her name is Hillary. Do you call Barack "Bar"? Obama didn't have to go negative, he had his surrogates do it for him so he *could* largely stay above the fray. He needs to do that. It's his one selling point. McCain and Clinton have others. His one ace in the hole is that he's a "new kind of politician".

But if he thinks the McCain people are going to pussyfoot around him like the dems did, he's sadly mistaken and he and his supporters had better get used to fighting back.

Err, what? Hillary and the Dems pussyfooted around him?

He gets trashed more here from Hillary supporters than he does from McCain supporters.

 

[jillian]

I wonder if Obama would throw her under the bus? Probably not, but his actions with his church makes me think the possibility exists.

Lol... well, he's got to live with her after the campaign, so I don't think so. I do think at some point he will have to tell her to be quiet...same as Hillary would.

 

[ReillyT]

I think this one was pretty polite compared to Bush's campaigns in 2000 and 2004. But I don't think it's going to stay polite now that the repubs are going to go head to head with Obama. In fact, as I alluded to above, I think he "ain't seen nothing yet". He's going to see 527 corps doing 24/7 loops of Rev Wright and Michelle. She isn't an asset to him and that's a problem. (Not that Bill is an asset to Hillary at this point either).

Of course you are right. Thankfully, I think the primary campaign has drawn some of the poison from these wounds, and the volleys headed towards the McCain camp haven't even started yet. I would say that this could be fun, but there is too much at stake to remain a neutral observer. I am already tensing in preparation for the next 5 months.

 

[ReillyT]

Err, what? Hillary and the Dems pussyfooted around him?

He gets trashed more here from Hillary supporters than he does from McCain supporters.

But this is a message board full of people interested in politics, and the McCain camp has more or less been biding their time. There is no reason for them to join the fray when the Democratic candidates are teeing off on one another. I suspect it will get a good deal rougher before the end. Thankfully, I think McCain has his own skeletons in the closet and position-flipping that he will have to deal with as well, and, importantly, we have more money and Bush to fall back on this time.