Hey Steve - We Can Get Married In Canada. Let's Go Then David!

[dmp]

Great debate everyone.

However, you are missing the point that D and I are making.

No one is justifiying rape or molesting a child. No one says that people who do this should get off from prosecution.

What we are saying is this: Years ago, homosexuality was a disease..it was abnormal and unacceptable. Through the years, with the proper lobbying from certain people with "agendas", it has become acceptable because they are "born that way." Since they are born that way, they are not abnormal and their rights should change accordingly.

Fast forward to a rape case or a child molestation case (or a murder case, or...any case). A crafty, sleazy lawyer can get a doctor on the stand to say that his client's behavior was born, not learned. He was born to rape, born to molest, born to murder, born to ________, therefore, using the same argument as homosexuals, their behavior is not abnormal, it is something they were born with. Therefore, the sentence must be lighter.

With some of the liberal agendas today, combined with the ACLU, and the way that some judges are ruling, this is not that far out of the realm of possibility.

I think I can speak for D (and myself obviously), that neither of us condone or want to lessen the stigma and criminality of rape or molestation. We do not want lighter sentences (get real).

We are simply saying that if society continues to progress as it has in the past decades, why is this so hard to consider?

Bingo. I'd also argue Homosexuality hurts society WORSE - because so many people don't realize they are victims of the behaviour; they skip along, happy and content (outwardly) while their insides, physcially and emotionally, are torn apart.

 

[Said1]

You make the choice to be heterosexual every day. You make the choice to 'not' be a theif or a rapist every day. Our homo or heterosexuality are based solely on one thing: Our Behavior. Every day I am not having sex with other men I am heterosexual. The day I have sex with another man I am homosexual, and vice versa. Homosexuality isn't a condition, it's an action.

So for all I know, you really could be gay, you just choose not to be?

 

[Said1]

Great debate everyone.

However, you are missing the point that D and I are making.

No one is justifiying rape or molesting a child. No one says that people who do this should get off from prosecution.

What we are saying is this: Years ago, homosexuality was a disease..it was abnormal and unacceptable. Through the years, with the proper lobbying from certain people with "agendas", it has become acceptable because they are "born that way." Since they are born that way, they are not abnormal and their rights should change accordingly.

Fast forward to a rape case or a child molestation case (or a murder case, or...any case). A crafty, sleazy lawyer can get a doctor on the stand to say that his client's behavior was born, not learned. He was born to rape, born to molest, born to murder, born to ________, therefore, using the same argument as homosexuals, their behavior is not abnormal, it is something they were born with. Therefore, the sentence must be lighter.

With some of the liberal agendas today, combined with the ACLU, and the way that some judges are ruling, this is not that far out of the realm of possibility.

I think I can speak for D (and myself obviously), that neither of us condone or want to lessen the stigma and criminality of rape or molestation. We do not want lighter sentences (get real).

We are simply saying that if society continues to progress as it has in the past decades, why is this so hard to consider?

Using words like "I'm hoping" might have given some the wrong impression.

 

[dmp]

So for all I know, you really could be gay, you just choose not to be?

No. I'm not gay because I don't have sex with other men.

Not a hard concept to grasp, I hope.

 

[dmp]

Using words like "I'm hoping" might have given some the wrong impression.

 

[Said1]

No. I'm not gay because I don't have sex with other men.

Not a hard concept to grasp, I hope.

No it's not a hard concept. Still your choice though. :funnyface

 

[Said1]

Same to you.

 

[dmp]

No it's not a hard concept. Still your choice though. :funnyface

Bingo. It's my CHOICE to not have sex with men. Just as it's other guys' choice TO have sex with men. Nobody is 'forced' into a life of homosexuality. We CHOOSE homosexual relationships for numerous reasons: Past sexual abuse; bad relationships with parents; confusion; mental issues; spiritual bankruptcy....to name a few.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

You make the choice to be heterosexual every day. You make the choice to 'not' be a theif or a rapist every day. Our homo or heterosexuality are based solely on one thing: Our Behavior. Every day I am not having sex with other men I am heterosexual. The day I have sex with another man I am homosexual, and vice versa. Homosexuality isn't a condition, it's an action.

I suppose if we can't agree on the very definition of homosexuality then this debate probably won't go anywhere. I understand your definition and based on that, I can understand your argument. I do believe that homosexuality is much more than a behaviour, it is a way you feel. How you choose to act on that feeling is up to you, but I don't consider the behaviour to be the defining criteria for sexual orientation. Alcoholics who no longer drink are still alcoholics (ask them). Americans living in other countries are still Americans. Using the same logic, I'm comfortable saying that your sexual orientation is more defined by your feelings than by your behaviour.

I'll close with some quick questions. Take a heterosexual married couple that haven't had sex in years. Are they still heterosexual? Is their marriage still legitimate even though they no longer have sex? Take that same scenario but it is 2 married men that haven't had sex in years. Are they homosexual? They tell each other every morning that they love each other. They look forwarding to seeing the other when they get home at night. In every single behaviour (as is your definition of sexual orientation) they are the same as the heterosexual married couple yet you would condemn one and not the other?

 

[Said1]

Bingo. It's my CHOICE to not have sex with men. Just as it's other guys' choice TO have sex with men. Nobody is 'forced' into a life of homosexuality. We CHOOSE homosexual relationships for numerous reasons: Past sexual abuse; bad relationships with parents; confusion; mental issues; spiritual bankruptcy....to name a few.

I wasn't arguing that point. In fact, I even went so far as to say I think, for the most part it IS environmental.

What I did have a problem with was the remark you dismissed with your cute little shrug smile. Every society has it's problems, some have an easier time justifying violence. Some approve of gay marriage. To-ma-to/Tomahto.

Bu-bye.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

I'll close with some quick questions.

One more: What is the sexual orientation of a 20 year old male virgin who is waiting for marriage but wants to marry a woman? What is his sexual orientation if he wants to marry a man?

 

[GotZoom]

I'll close with some quick questions. Take a heterosexual married couple that haven't had sex in years. Are they still heterosexual? Is their marriage still legitimate even though they no longer have sex? Take that same scenario but it is 2 married men that haven't had sex in years. Are they homosexual? They tell each other every morning that they love each other. They look forwarding to seeing the other when they get home at night. In every single behaviour (as is your definition of sexual orientation) they are the same as the heterosexual married couple yet you would condemn one and not the other?

You answered your own example - Take a heterosexual couple - they are heterosexual. N

Now the 2 married men who haven't had sex. First, they are married to each other. Find me two hetereosexual men who are married to each other. They obviuosly had "sexual relations" at some point - they are homosexuals.

You are suggesting that the sexual act defines someone's sexual preference alone?

So if I don't have sex with my wife for ______ (how long?), I am automatically a homosexual? If that is the case, there are a lot of men out there who are gay.

 

[GotZoom]

One more: What is the sexual orientation of a 20 year old male virgin who is waiting for marriage but wants to marry a woman? What is his sexual orientation if he wants to marry a man?

If you want to marry a women - hetereosexual.
If you want to marry a man - homosexual.

This shouldn't be that hard.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

You are suggesting that the sexual act defines someone's sexual preference alone?

No, read the posts above. I'm suggesting that the sexual act is not what defines someone's sexual preference.

 

[GotZoom]

No, read the posts above. I'm suggesting that the sexual act is not what defines someone's sexual preference.

In your mind then, what does define someone's sexual preference?

How do you "show" your sexual preference?

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

In your mind then, what does define someone's sexual preference?

How do you "show" your sexual preference?

If you are sexually or romantically attracted to people of the same gender, you are a homosexual, whether or not you actually have sex with them. Some choose to "show" it by entering relationships with people of the same gender, some choose to cover it up by either remaining celibate or by trying to force themselves to be with people of the opposite gender.

I knew I was a heterosexual long before I ever had sex which is why I believe sexual orientation is a feeling, not a behaviour.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Great debate everyone.

However, you are missing the point that D and I are making.

No one is justifiying rape or molesting a child. No one says that people who do this should get off from prosecution.

What we are saying is this: Years ago, homosexuality was a disease..it was abnormal and unacceptable. Through the years, with the proper lobbying from certain people with "agendas", it has become acceptable because they are "born that way." Since they are born that way, they are not abnormal and their rights should change accordingly.

Fast forward to a rape case or a child molestation case (or a murder case, or...any case). A crafty, sleazy lawyer can get a doctor on the stand to say that his client's behavior was born, not learned. He was born to rape, born to molest, born to murder, born to ________, therefore, using the same argument as homosexuals, their behavior is not abnormal, it is something they were born with. Therefore, the sentence must be lighter.

With some of the liberal agendas today, combined with the ACLU, and the way that some judges are ruling, this is not that far out of the realm of possibility.

I think I can speak for D (and myself obviously), that neither of us condone or want to lessen the stigma and criminality of rape or molestation. We do not want lighter sentences (get real).

We are simply saying that if society continues to progress as it has in the past decades, why is this so hard to consider?

Well, while we can pick at the morality of homosexuality for days and never come to a conclusion satiating all parties, the real meat of the matter of course is, like so many things, the right of government to accept majority democratically supported morality.

My view is that the less times the government enters the realms of morality, the better, but I know that is impossible given the nature of our society's structure. Which is precisely why, the outlawing of homosexual marriage in law and the accepting of homosexual marriage in law has equal weight in government interference in morality.

 

[GotZoom]

If you are sexually or romantically attracted to people of the same gender, you are a homosexual, whether or not you actually have sex with them. Some choose to "show" it by entering relationships with people of the same gender, some choose to cover it up by either remaining celibate or by trying to force themselves to be with people of the opposite gender.

I knew I was a heterosexual long before I ever had sex which is why I believe sexual orientation is a feeling, not a behaviour.

How?

There are many people who decide they like someone of their own gender before they have sex with them.

I'm not convinced that people are "born that way." I think they have a choice also...to be heterosexual or homosexual.

Using the moment in 2nd grade when little Jenny hit you as the defining moment of your sexual preference isn't exactly feasible.

There is the chance that in 9th grade gym class, when you saw Jimmy in the shower, you said to yourself that you wanted him. Or you could have not thought otherwise.

You made that choice to not "like" Jimmy.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

There is the chance that in 9th grade gym class, when you saw Jimmy in the shower, you said to yourself that you wanted him. Or you could have not thought otherwise.

You made that choice to not "like" Jimmy.

There was no chance of me liking Jimmy more than Katy in a romantic way, ever. Sure, I could have chosen to go against my preference and started a relationship with him which is something that many gay people choose to do: force themselves to act against their preference. d is right, we have the choice to behave in any way we want but I don't think we have a choice about how we will prefer to behave. I define homosexuality by the preference, not by the eventual choice of behaviour.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

I'm not convinced that people are "born that way." I think they have a choice also...to be heterosexual or homosexual.

I don't know how much credence you put in the decrees of the Catholic church but even they make a distinction between being homosexual (wanting people of the same gender) and the behaviour. Being homosexual is fine, you are not a sinner and you will get to heaven without any form of sexual re-orientation. You can't even say that the church is specifically against homosexual acts, only that they are against ANY sexual acts before marriage and, since homosexuals aren't allowed to marry, homosexual acts aren't allowed.

Generally, homosexual orientation is experienced as a given, not as something freely chosen. By itself, therefore, a homosexual orientation cannot be considered sinful, for morality presumes the freedom to choose.

God loves every person as a unique individual. Sexual identity helps to define the unique persons we are. One component of our sexual identity is sexual orientation...God does not love someone any less simply because he or she is homosexual.

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