Here's my take on how Germany could have won WW2

[Mushroom]

Are you claiming Adolph Hitler was an expert at rocket science? ... I seriously doubt that, but Hitler certainly fully funded the Nazi rocket program

Are you aware of why?

Under the Versailles Treaty, Germany was forbidden most aircraft. They did some research and development into medium aircraft, in the guise of cargo and passenger aircraft. One of the reasons why they never built heavy bombers dates back to that treaty.

However, the Versailles Treaty was completely silent on rockets. Therefore they could throw all the money into it they wanted, and had absolutely no worry that they would be stopped. The funding of that program was entirely because they could, rockets was such a new field that there were no restrictions on Germany doing research in that area.

 

[Mushroom]

Napoleon took Moscow --and lost

A lot in here are amazingly ignorant of things military and historical.

Hitler could have taken Moscow. So what, the Soviets had already made plans for that. Primarily, moving the capitol to Novosobirsk. There they would have licked their wounds, safe from the Germans ever reaching them and rebuilt their forces and power in preparation to fighting again.

The Soviets would not have surrendered if Moscow had fallen, they were ready to move in case that happened in fact.

Hell, I bet that most are not even aware that in 1812 when Napoleon took Moscow, it was not even the capitol of Russia. When the Bolsheviks took over Russia, they moved the capitol to Moscow. Which other than for two years it had not been since 1713.

 

[DudleySmith]

Napoleon took Moscow --and lost

So what? Napoloen didn't have railroads as supply lines.

 

[DudleySmith]

DudleySmith yes, we'll fly troops all over just like they did in Vietnam
AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Russia is not surrendering at all--not even close

Except that Viet Nam only fell when we abandoned them, while the North was still being supplied by Red China. The Viet Cong were shut down by LBJ's policies in 1968, and the NVA couldn't stay in the field without foreign aid. The Soviets went bankrupt in 1973, so yeah, the Soviets did surrender and had to be put on life support to keep from collapsing entirely, reliant on western imports and refined petroleum products from the West for the next 18 or so years. They couldn't even exploit the giant Cam Ranh Bay base which landed in their lap with no resistance; all they had was a lot of floating junk to posture with in '79-80.

AAHHHHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

[DudleySmith]

A lot in here are amazingly ignorant of things military and historical.

Yes, and you are Exhibit A.

 

[harmonica]

Except that Viet Nam only fell when we abandoned them, while the North was still being supplied by Red China. The Viet Cong were shut down by LBJ's policies in 1968, and the NVA couldn't stay in the field without foreign aid. The Soviets went bankrupt in 1973, so yeah, the Soviets did surrender and had to be put on life support to keep from collapsing entirely, reliant on western imports and refined petroleum products from the West for the next 18 or so years. They couldn't even exploit the giant Cam Ranh Bay base which landed in their lap with no resistance; all they had was a lot of floating junk to posture with in '79-80.

AAHHHHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

let's give the Germans some Sparrow missiles--how about that??? THEN they would win

 

[harmonica]

Yes, and you are Exhibit A.

Yes, and you are Exhibit A.

 

[harmonica]

A lot in here are amazingly ignorant of things military and historical.

Hitler could have taken Moscow. So what, the Soviets had already made plans for that. Primarily, moving the capitol to Novosobirsk. There they would have licked their wounds, safe from the Germans ever reaching them and rebuilt their forces and power in preparation to fighting again.

The Soviets would not have surrendered if Moscow had fallen, they were ready to move in case that happened in fact.

Hell, I bet that most are not even aware that in 1812 when Napoleon took Moscow, it was not even the capitol of Russia. When the Bolsheviks took over Russia, they moved the capitol to Moscow. Which other than for two years it had not been since 1713.

yes--Napoleon took Moscow and look what happened to him

 

[DudleySmith]

let's give the Germans some Sparrow missiles--how about that??? THEN they would win

We could give you some new frontal lobes, but your body would probably reject them. We get it, you ran out of lame rebuttals from your first post.

 

[harmonica]

We could give you some new frontal lobes, but your body would probably reject them. We get it, you ran out of lame rebuttals from your first post.

let's give them some Ohio class subs

 

[DudleySmith]

let's give them some Ohio class subs

Let's give them you. You're worth a lot more, right?

 

[ReinyDays]

Are you aware of why?

Under the Versailles Treaty, Germany was forbidden most aircraft. They did some research and development into medium aircraft, in the guise of cargo and passenger aircraft. One of the reasons why they never built heavy bombers dates back to that treaty.

However, the Versailles Treaty was completely silent on rockets. Therefore they could throw all the money into it they wanted, and had absolutely no worry that they would be stopped. The funding of that program was entirely because they could, rockets was such a new field that there were no restrictions on Germany doing research in that area.

If you'll look, you'll see the Treaty of Versailles is also silent on nuclear weapons ... Germany could have thrown their money into their nuclear program as well and not violate the terms of the treaty ... but it's not like Germany cared about that at the time ... I'm pretty sure that treaty prohibited Germany from annexing Austria and Czechoslovakia ... ha ha ha ha ... I'm sorry, the Treaty of Versailles was long kaput when fission was discovered in late 1938, published in January, 1939 ...

German money was better spent flying bombers over London in 1940 ... their bombers were "heavy" enough at the time ...

(Yes, it was amazing the USA could put a man on the Moon in less than 10 years ... but that's nothing compared to fringe science to vaporizing cities in 6 years, 7 months ... Jan '39 to Aug '45 ... )

 

[Mushroom]

The Viet Cong were shut down by LBJ's policies in 1968

What?

The Viet Cong were disbanded after they were almost completely destroyed in the Tet Offensive. After taking almost 80% casualties in that operation, they were no longer effective as a combat unit. So they were actually absorbed into the NVA and primarily worked as scouts or running supply operations for the rest of the war.

 

[Otis Mayfield]

Are you aware of why?

Under the Versailles Treaty, Germany was forbidden most aircraft. They did some research and development into medium aircraft, in the guise of cargo and passenger aircraft. One of the reasons why they never built heavy bombers dates back to that treaty.

However, the Versailles Treaty was completely silent on rockets. Therefore they could throw all the money into it they wanted, and had absolutely no worry that they would be stopped. The funding of that program was entirely because they could, rockets was such a new field that there were no restrictions on Germany doing research in that area.

So for Germany, they had to get to the Caucasus.

That's the only way they could win. Hitler knew this and told his generals to drive straight to the Caucasus. His generals ignored him and pushed on Moscow. So much for everyone being afraid of Hitler.

Oh, and the Germans ran out of oil.

 

[rupol2000]

Just at the beginning of the war, Germany had a stunning success, they marched through the entire European part in 2 years.
They did everything that you are talking about. Part of the Soviet troops and Soviet citizens went over to the side of Germany. Germany was engaged in agitation, they issued leaflets and the like.
Why there was a turning point in the war is still not clear. This was probably due not only to the military aspect, but also to politics. In 1943, a split occurred in the German leadership, an officer army was restored in the USSR army, and Germany's technologies began to go to the United States. There was something that we are not told about.

 

[Mushroom]

German money was better spent flying bombers over London in 1940 ... their bombers were "heavy" enough at the time

Oh my, really?

Far from the truth, the exact opposite in fact. Ask any historian about the biggest shortfalls of German equipment during WWII, and what almost every one will point out was their lack of any meaningful bombers.

They only had 2 different Heavy Bombers that were actually produced. The 4 engine Ju-290 (65 built), which were so vulnerable to English defenses that they spent most of the war doing maritime patrol duties. And the He-177 twin engine bomber (1,169 built). But that aircraft was rarely seen in Europe, spending most of the war fighting the Soviets as it was the only bomber that had the range to attack targets deep in that country.

No, one thing almost all who have studied the war recognize is that Germany had no real significant bomber presence. The mandate that all bombers be able to operate as dive bombers crippled their ability to design large bombers. So instead most were actually fighter-bombers, or medium bombers at best, that had reduced bomb loads when compared to those of the allies because of their mandate to be able to do dive bombing attack profiles.

By the time they recognized the threat of the heavy bombers that the UK and US were throwing at them they finally did eliminate that mandate that all bombers operate as dive bombers, and really did start to design some impressive designs. But by then it was to late, and the war was already winding to a close.

The main German bomber in the Battle of Britain was the He-111. One of the "Wolves in Sheep Clothing", it was claimed it was built as a passenger airliner, and indeed it was operated as such by Lufthansa. But in reality, it was a twin engine medium bomber. With over 6,500 built, it was their primary medium bomber. But they could only carry around two tons of bombs, which meant it would take eight of the He-111 to surpass what a single Lancaster could deliver on target.

And that is only the earliest Lancasters. By the end of the war, the Lancaster had been adapted and upgraded to carry immense payloads. From the original 7 tons, to eventually over 11 tons. And the Brits made over 7,000 of those. Germany would have had to build over 32,000 He-111's to even come close to what England alone had in a single line of their bombers.

 

[Mushroom]

So for Germany, they had to get to the Caucasus.

That's the only way they could win. Hitler knew this and told his generals to drive straight to the Caucasus. His generals ignored him and pushed on Moscow. So much for everyone being afraid of Hitler.

Oh, and the Germans ran out of oil.

Look up at your map once again. Go ahead, look at it.

Baku is not in Iran, it is in Azerbaijan. Now look way down at the bottom of your map. The very bottom, that is where Egypt is.

See all that other area? Palestine, Trans-Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq? All that was still in the way between Egypt and Iran. You are showing a map with arrows on it, and not even seeing that it is talking about an attack from a completely different direction.

And all that pretty purple lined area? Allied controlled. So after taking Egypt, they would still have been fighting through all of that to get to Iran. And once again, how would they have gotten the oil from there to Germany? You are aware that one of the biggest problems Germany suffered from throughout the entire war was transportation, right? So somehow they would have had to magically fight through over 2,000 km. Then occupy Iran, and then somehow set up a way to get the oil to Germany.

Look at your map, and I mean really look at it. Then you might see why I am laughing. Just look at the freaking distances involved, and they could not even capture and hold the Caucasus. Yet, they were going to take Iran and all of their troubles were going to magically vanish.

Through Egypt no less.

 

[Mushroom]

Just at the beginning of the war, Germany had a stunning success, they marched through the entire European part in 2 years.

Eh, not quite. In reality, most of that were the two countries they bordered before the war. France and Poland.

Sweden was largely neutral, as was Spain. Half of France was also a neutral puppet government, and Finland was a favorable neutral government. And for much of Southern Europe was actually more accurate to say they were allies or occupied by Italy. And later in the war Germany even attacked some of those "Allied" countries, when he thought their zeal was not enough or wavering.

In reality, their "progress" was not all that impressive when the amount of actual territory they controlled was not all that much. And most of that territory they did not hold for very long, and by 1943 they had been pushed out of much of the Soviet Union and were getting close to the old Soviet-Polish border. And it must also be remembered that by that time, the Soviets were starting to take out their puppets in areas like Romania, Bulgaria, etc. Never really "German" territory, but run by governments friendly to Germany.

 

[rupol2000]

In reality, their "progress" was not all that impressive

It was. In 1943 they were on the Volga, and only after that they went back. Their successes were impressive even later. Despite the setbacks on the fronts, they developed the Wunderwaffe program, which had intercontinental ballistic missiles and included all modern weapons. There are only two things that are unclear: how, with such a technical base, they could have lost at all, and why the winner in this war was not the British Empire, but the United States, which at the beginning of the war were not the main player and were not a superpower.

 

[Mushroom]

Wunderwaffe program, which had intercontinental ballistic missiles

No, it did not. They had what we would call a "Tactical Ballistic Missile", with a range of 200 miles. That is not anything even close to an ICBM, which has a range of over 3,400 miles.

The V-2 was not anything even close to an "intercontinental ballistic missile".