Originally posted by clyde
hi Sl Clemens,
First of all let me say that I have no agender here.I've been an Atheist most of my life.I don't care what you or other religionists believe in.I am only here to educate myself as to what religionists believe in.I'm quite certain my beliefs are correct.I'm secure in my beliefs and I'm not interested in debating you or others.
I feel no human is infallible.Everybody makes mistakes,even the leader of a religion or the executive director of Atheist's United .We live in the 21st century.Having been brought up in the Jewish faith,many years ago I would have thought it would be unthinkable for a woman to be a rabbi or a cantor.I remember when I was a little kid I would go to shuel and see a male rabbi and a male cantor. This was just a matter of fact or the way it was supposed to be.Today Judaism has changed.There are now female rabbi's and female cantors.
But sadly I don't see any change in the Christian Church.There's just too much division and unacceptance of change.I'm sure there are alot of people who would like to see more women playing roles in the Christian Church but because of the Pope's stance,change at least with this Pope will never occur.
As for heaven or hell I believe this is just a creation of Man for those who cannot or will not consciously except the finality of life and that yes this is all there is and no there is no continuation of life after death.Again this is my belief.I'm not going to debate you and say your beliefs are wrong.I respect your beliefs.You have a right to believe as you may wish so long as your beliefs don't infringe upon me.I also have a right to believe as I wish,and I have absolutely no desire to change your beliefs.I really don't care.
Clyde
Clyde,
I certainly don't see any agenda with what you've asked. As for heaven, well, like I said, I really don't know. I think GOP_Jeff has given you a good idea what most Protestant Christians who tend to believe that the Bible is literally true think. They look at all passages that pertain to heaven and reach a synthesis that does not seem contradictory. But there are some 1.5+ billion Christians around and many different views. Catholics who hold dogmatically to the teachings of their Church believe that most Christians spend time in purgatory getting purged of their sinful nature before proceeding to heaven. I cannot read the Bible and come up with any coherent explanation.
Like you, I often wonder about the extent to which heaven is a human construction. It's potentially dangerous, because if you believe that getting as many people into heaven as possible, as well as yourself, is your reason for being it can cause you to do almost anything to achieve this, including some potentially terrible things. Many people have tortured in the name of Christ for this reason. On the other hand, it can also cause you do to all sorts of wonderful works of sacrifice for others.
For me heaven is a hope of good things to come after I die, but if I end up being nothing but decomposing fertiliser, I still think I'll have been a better person for being a Christian. Well, at least a less worse person, lol. Actually, in theological terms I might be more of a unitarian / universalist, but I still prefer to go to a Protestant church, and use interpretations of the Bible as a guide.
Heaven, I should mention, is also a kingdom where we are not bound by earthly desires, and one that we can work to achieve before we die.
I'd be careful how you conceive of the "Christian Church" - Christian "churches" might be a better way of looking at them, and some of them have changed a whole lot. I found your childhood views very interesting. When I was a child I would never have imagined going to a church with a woman pastor and sharing pews with gays, and with agnostics and people who prefer the theological outlooks of other religions but still like to come to church, but now that's exactly what I'm doing. Other churches are much more like my childhood conceptions. And there were churches around when I was a child that are much like the one I now attend - I just didn't know they existed.
If none of this sounds very interesting or appealing I hope that you're still able to draw upon your own religious heritage for inspiration and spiritual comfort. Judaism is a fascinating and deeply complex religion, and if you have the faculties to help open it up to you, even as an atheist, I think it will be an enriching experience.
