Have Conservatives Gone Completely Insane?

[xsited1]

WTF are they ding blocking a plan to bail out the economy? Propaganda against "big government" for the last thirty years has come home to roost

You really want the government (i.e., the taxpayers - you and me) to save big corporations that ran their businesses into the ground?

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

We have an economy that is a free market that is regulated. Sometimes its more regulated than others. Obvioulsy the regulators were asleep at the wheel this time. And that's according to the regulators themselves

Actually the regulators were being castigated by democrats:

[youtube]_MGT_cSi7Rs[/youtube]

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

We have an economy that is a free market that is regulated. Sometimes its more regulated than others. Obvioulsy the regulators were asleep at the wheel this time. And that's according to the regulators themselves

There's no such thing as a regulated free market, it's either free or it's regulated. Our market is not free, therefore the free market cannot be to blame.

 

[Care4all]

There's no such thing as a regulated free market, it's either free or it's regulated. Our market is not free, therefore the free market cannot be to blame.

but there really is no market in the world that is free from regulation, other than the black market, or the illegal drug market....etc.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

but there really is no market in the world that is free from regulation, other than the black market, or the illegal drug market....etc.

That depends on how you define "regulate".

If the government regulates the definition of "flour" (and it does via the FDA) then the consumer is protected because the seller cannot cut ground wheat with chalk dust. Similarly the seller is protected from frivilous lawsuits from rancorous comsumers accusing him of fraud because he already sells what the law defines thus saving every flour seller from seeking court review of what constitutes flour with each new court case.

But bad regulation is when the government says the seller must sell X amount to Y people for Z price. Such things never pan out as intended and only lead to scarcity and high prices.

 

[Orange_Juice]

You really want the government (i.e., the taxpayers - you and me) to save big corporations that ran their businesses into the ground?

Um, if its going to drag us all down with it if we don't, yes

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

Um, if its going to drag us all down with it if we don't, yes

So how would you feel about domestic drilling and lowering corporate tax burdens to keep US money in the US?

 

[Care4all]

That depends on how you define "regulate".

If the government regulates the definition of "flour" (and it does via the FDA) then the consumer is protected because the seller cannot cut ground wheat with chalk dust. Similarly the seller is protected from frivilous lawsuits from rancorous comsumers accusing him of fraud because he already sells what the law defines thus saving every flour seller from seeking court review of what constitutes flour with each new court case.

But bad regulation is when the government says the seller must sell X amount to Y people for Z price. Such things never pan out as intended and only lead to scarcity and high prices.

in a Free Market, there would be no regulation of the definition of flour....there would be no protection for businesses to protect themselves from lawsuits...that would be government intervention, which would not be a free market...

the flour industry would self govern themselves if they wanted to improve things for themselves.

they would be opened to ALL LAWSUITS in a free market, for any damage they did...

there would be NO FDA in a free market either... imo.

so maybe we just have different ideas of what a free market is...???

Care

 

[Care4all]

So how would you feel about domestic drilling and lowering corporate tax burdens to keep US money in the US?

Give the SAME people that just DICKED US a tax break? you gotta be kidding?
How do you envision this helping us in this housing mess? seems non germaine to me?

 

[Orange_Juice]

So how would you feel about domestic drilling and lowering corporate tax burdens to keep US money in the US?

I favor domestic drilling and drilling in ANWAR, corporate taxes are another matter. Lowering taxes and spending through debt actually sends money out of the country because we have to borrow and send interest payments to foreign nations. Your next reply will of course be that we should cut all non-military spending, like throwing old people off of health care and letting the poor go cold in winter, but the problem with that is cutting government spending also hurts consumer spending which is 2/3 of our economy.

 

[xsited1]

Um, if its going to drag us all down with it if we don't, yes

It won't drag us "all down with it." This is just another way for the government to take more control of our lives. Are you sure that's what you want? Once you let the government have control of the financial markets, you can't go back.

 

[Orange_Juice]

It won't drag us "all down with it." This is just another way for the government to take more control of our lives. Are you sure that's what you want? Once you let the government have control of the financial markets, you can't go back.

Oh, will the evil government tell bankers they don't have the freedom to give people that want $500,000 home loans that they can't have them if they can't afford them?

That type of "oppressive" government I can live with!

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

in a Free Market, there would be no regulation of the definition of flour....there would be no protection for businesses to protect themselves from lawsuits...that would be government intervention, which would not be a free market...

the flour industry would self govern themselves if they wanted to improve things for themselves.

they would be opened to ALL LAWSUITS in a free market, for any damage they did...

there would be NO FDA in a free market either... imo.

so maybe we just have different ideas of what a free market is...???

Care

Bullshit.

The constitution allows congress to establish weights and measures as well as define fraud and regulate interstate commerce. And heaven knows they weren't socialists of any stripe. A stable playing field is not the same as progressivist redistribution schemes.

Give the SAME people that just DICKED US a tax break? you gotta be kidding?
How do you envision this helping us in this housing mess? seems non germaine to me?

So in a cash starved economy your idea is to take MORE cash out of the economy? How does that work? Try this experiment: the next time a customer of yours strikes you as too well off tell him you will be charging him a progressive pricing fee; then tell us how much longer he patronizes whatever it is you o for a living.

And yes, oil is germain in that if it keeps US dollars in the US, instead of going overeseas or to Canada it works better for the US and failure to do so is helping rag us down...the concern of the post I was responding to.

...Your next reply will of course be that we should cut all non-military spending, like throwing old people off of health care and letting the poor go cold in winter, but the problem with that is cutting government spending also hurts consumer spending which is 2/3 of our economy.

Wrong. I would say FEDERAL programs should be defunded. The states are free to do as they wish.

But your point of cutting gov't spending is erroneous on 2 counts:

1. The gov't doesn't have money, it has other people's money, money that would be spent regardless. The only thing gov't spending does is wash money through the hands of politicians buying votes and blaoted careerist bureaucrats who won't solve the problem they weer hired to fix because they would lose their jobs.

2. If gov't spending were so great for the economy progressives would have no complaint about military spending because, after all, i is consumer spending because even employees of the MIC go to movies and eat at Denny's.

BUT

Spending on the military or any other gov't program will bankrupt a nation eventually. Witness: North Korea, the USSR...well, the historic examples are too numerous to count. It even goes back to Rome. You cannot spend your way to wealth. Keynes is a fraud.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

Oh, will the evil government tell bankers they don't have the freedom to give people that want $500,000 home loans that they can't have them if they can't afford them?

That type of "oppressive" government I can live with!

$500k was not that big a house in some markets.

Of course you're spinning this because your beloved "poor" are the cause of the massive mortgage defaults.

 

[Orange_Juice]

$500k was not that big a house in some markets.

Of course you're spinning this because your beloved "poor" are the cause of the massive mortgage defaults.

Gees, ya, poor people were buying $500,000 homes

Don't you clowns ever get tired of skapegoating the poor the way Hitler skapegoated the Jews?

 

[xsited1]

Oh, will the evil government tell bankers they don't have the freedom to give people that want $500,000 home loans that they can't have them if they can't afford them?

That type of "oppressive" government I can live with!

Oh, great. Give the government control. Remember the Great Depression? The Federal Reserve increased the money supply and bank credit in 1920s, which in the 30s resulted in The Great Depression. Yeah, they know what to do!

I will not let the United States turn into a Socialist State. It saddens me there are people like you who actually want that to happen.

 

[Shadow]

$500k was not that big a house in some markets.

Of course you're spinning this because your beloved "poor" are the cause of the massive mortgage defaults.

Right in California,towns like San Clemente,Dana Point ect. A 500K house could be three bedroom's two baths,or smaller if you have a view of the beach across the street. Then it means double wide trailer on a dirt lot.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

Gees, ya, poor people were buying $500,000 homes

Don't you clowns ever get tired of skapegoating the poor the way Hitler skapegoated the Jews?

Godwin Law

Are you saying rich people bought the homes and refused to pay for them?

Where did you fabricate this $500,000 figure anyway?

Ad perchance might it be poor people buying homes they could not qualify to own without Fannie/Freddie backing? That is the whole purpose of those organizations, isn't it?

 

[Care4all]

Bullshit.

The constitution allows congress to establish weights and measures as well as define fraud and regulate interstate commerce. And heaven knows they weren't socialists of any stripe. A stable playing field is not the same as progressivist redistribution schemes.

The constitution also permits trade agreements/ treaties that are anything but fair or free...this is not a "Free Market" when the market is governed by the government imo.

So in a cash starved economy your idea is to take MORE cash out of the economy?

Who's taking more out of it? Keep the taxes the same as they were....you either tax us more to give them a break, or you keep it as is, either way, money is being taken out of the market...

And yes, oil is germain in that if it keeps US dollars in the US, instead of going overeseas or to Canada it works better for the US and failure to do so is helping rag us down...the concern of the post I was responding to.

you think that will matter 10-15 years from now when they bring the new oil up out of the ground and to the pumps? I don't...I think that in 15 years, this will not matter, because we will be well on our way to using alternative fossil free energy and natural gas and nuclear energies.

It will not in any way, help our economy through this mess. Foreigners will be the ones drilling for our oil/natural gas in ANWR, still putting our money, transfering our wealth, in to other country's hands and at present, we have no laws protecting us from such....and foreign oil companies can buy our leases for oil....i'd rather see that changed before we go further or claim that opening up the entire country's coasts or natural wildlife reserves for drilling will help us keep money here...

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

The constitution also permits trade agreements/ treaties that are anything but fair or free...this is not a "Free Market" when the market is governed by the government imo.

You see folks, this is what public education does to you.

How are two or more governments agreeing not to tariff each other NOT a free market?

Who's taking more out of it? Keep the taxes the same as they were....you either tax us more to give them a break, or you keep it as is, either way, money is being taken out of the market...

Reduced cost encourages economic activity. Analogy: manufacturers offer coupons to encourage economic activity within their sphere thus netting higher profits. Even you have to admit liberal politicians--along with heretic conservatives--write tax shelter laws to encourage economic activity in select sectors of the economy. And what are subsidies if not tax breaks washed through DC first? So the theory is already well-established.

Of course there is a point of diminishing returns in cuttng taxes (Yes, I the rabid, liberal eating, arch conservative says as much). There is a theory about the tax rate to revenue ratio called the Laffer Curve. I encourage study of this phenomenon.

you think that will matter 10-15 years from now when they bring the new oil up out of the ground and to the pumps? I don't...I think that in 15 years, this will not matter, because we will be well on our way to using alternative fossil free energy and natural gas and nuclear energies.

The oil is here and now and we have enough for centuries.

You're talking about stuff still in R & D.

Of course the libs have been denying ANWR and OCS drilling since the 90's because they say it would take a decade to access.

Let's not waste another decade listening to the same insipid excuse.

And as fuel prices are creating a market for alterative fuels and more efficient machines let's not dick-up that impetus by having congress ruin it with laws designed to put unnatural force to build/protect their private fiefdoms.

Is it not curious that the bio-deisel debacle was champoined by congress-rats OF BOTH PARTIES (lest you fear a partisan jab) from grain producing states? If it is such a winning idea it wouldn't need subsidies.

It will not in any way, help our economy through this mess. Foreigners will be the ones drilling for our oil/natural gas in ANWR, still putting our money, transfering our wealth, in to other country's hands and at present, we have no laws protecting us from such....and foreign oil companies can buy our leases for oil....i'd rather see that changed before we go further or claim that opening up the entire country's coasts or natural wildlife reserves for drilling will help us keep money here...

I doubt that as my civilian job has me working for oil companies.

They don't ship arabs, venezuelans and chinamen to drill our wells. At worse we have Canadian firms here but they hire strictly US workers. Ironically, the Canadians are here because it is cheaper to drill in the US than Canada.

hooah-outsourcing-hooah!