Hamas breaking international law?!?!?

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, I'm not mistaken.

I think you are mistaken. Palestine was declared a newly created state by the League of Nations and its international borders were defined. After the 1948 war, Palestine was still called Palestine and its international borders remained unchanged.

None of Palestine's neighbors dispute their borders.

(COMMENT)

This is the cornerstone of the dispute. You are again confusing the two administrative districts under the Mandate.

But, if the Arabs/Palestinians believe they have a cause of action, they can take it to court. After all, it was the Western Powers that created the boundaries throughout the region.

OR --- the Palestinians and the Israelis can enter into an agreement sanctioned by the International community.

Without regard to the boundary disputes, there is no cause of action that justifies Arab/Palestinian asymmetric conflict through terrorist means.

Most Respectfully,
R

There is no dispute. What is there to take to court?

The mandate is irrelevant. The mandate ended before the 1948 war.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Cast Lead, Amnesty's discussion about Israel's claim Hamas was using civilians as human shields:

"4.2.2 ISRAELI ALLEGATIONS ABOUT USE OF “HUMAN SHIELDS”

"The allegation that Hamas was using “human shields” was repeatedly made by Israeli
government and army officials and spokespersons. In response to any questions about attacks by their own forces against Palestinian civilians or civilian objects or about the impact of their forces’ operations on the civilian population of Gaza, Israeli officials invariably responded that Hamas must be held responsible for any harm caused to civilians by Israeli attacks."

"Amnesty International, for its part, did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian
groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel. In particular, it
found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield
military objectives from attacks. By contrast, Amnesty International did find that Israeli
forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve as “human shields”. In any event, international humanitarian law makes clear that use of “human shields” by one party does not release the attacking party from its legal obligations with respect to civilians."

http://www.hybridstates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mde150152009en.pdf

Two points about this, first, in Cast Lead, there was no finding Palestinians used civilians as human shields. Second, even if they had, Israel still owes the very same obligations to civilians as it had if civilians had not been used as human shields. This means Israel cannot directly target civilians and civilian objects, whether or not Hamas uses civilians as human shields. And Israel cannot engage in disproportionate or indiscriminate attacks, whether Hamas uses civilians as human shields or not. Israel's obligations to abide by The Fourth Geneva Convention do not change.

Conceivably, you can have a situation where a civilian shield is killed. Btselem addressed an incident where a man Israel was using as a human shield was killed. Israel commits a war crime by using that civilian as a human shield. And if we had evidence the Palestinians who killed the human shield knew the man was a Palestinian civilian, they would be committing a war crime, too.

Conclusion, commissions of war crimes by one side do not operate to relieve the other side from abiding by provisions of The Fourth Geneva Convention.

Sherri

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Ah, yes. I've heard this before.

Were they targeted as American citizens?

Remember, Israel killed an American citizen.

(COMMENT)

Yes, indiscriminate targeting is a characteristic of many terrorist actions.

Rest assured, in every case where the nation of Israel (GOI) is directly or indirectly involved in the death of an American through misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, it is throughly investigated. There have been many, many cases where the GOI has been brought to justice and an equitable settlement arranged.

But, again --- this is subterfuge. The commission of a crime by one party is not justification for the commission of a crime by another party.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't believe that they were targeted as Americans.

Do you have a link?

We saw Rachel Corrie murdered by Israel and nothing done about that. So much for American Justice, it does not exist!

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I believe I said "indiscriminate targets."

P F Tinmore, et al,

Ah, yes. I've heard this before.

Were they targeted as American citizens?

Remember, Israel killed an American citizen.

(COMMENT)

Yes, indiscriminate targeting is a characteristic of many terrorist actions.

Rest assured, in every case where the nation of Israel (GOI) is directly or indirectly involved in the death of an American through misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, it is throughly investigated. There have been many, many cases where the GOI has been brought to justice and an equitable settlement arranged.

But, again --- this is subterfuge. The commission of a crime by one party is not justification for the commission of a crime by another party.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't believe that they were targeted as Americans.

Do you have a link?

(COMMENT)

You cannot get off the hook by saying they were not specifically targeted as Americans (they were murdered in the commission of a terrorist act). They were killed by terrorists during a terrorist action. This is the depraved indifference to human life (American and others).

The Palestinian demonstrate the depraved indifference to human life in nearly every rocket attack, suicide bombing, spacial detonation, ambush, whatever.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Ah, yes. I've heard this before.


(COMMENT)

Yes, indiscriminate targeting is a characteristic of many terrorist actions.

Rest assured, in every case where the nation of Israel (GOI) is directly or indirectly involved in the death of an American through misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, it is throughly investigated. There have been many, many cases where the GOI has been brought to justice and an equitable settlement arranged.

But, again --- this is subterfuge. The commission of a crime by one party is not justification for the commission of a crime by another party.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't believe that they were targeted as Americans.

Do you have a link?

We saw Rachel Corrie murdered by Israel and nothing done about that. So much for American Justice, it does not exist!

"We" ain't seen diddly.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I believe I said "indiscriminate targets."

P F Tinmore, et al,

Ah, yes. I've heard this before.


(COMMENT)

Yes, indiscriminate targeting is a characteristic of many terrorist actions.

Rest assured, in every case where the nation of Israel (GOI) is directly or indirectly involved in the death of an American through misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, it is throughly investigated. There have been many, many cases where the GOI has been brought to justice and an equitable settlement arranged.

But, again --- this is subterfuge. The commission of a crime by one party is not justification for the commission of a crime by another party.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't believe that they were targeted as Americans.

Do you have a link?

(COMMENT)

You cannot get off the hook by saying they were not specifically targeted as Americans (they were murdered in the commission of a terrorist act). They were killed by terrorists during a terrorist action. This is the depraved indifference to human life (American and others).

The Palestinian demonstrate the depraved indifference to human life in nearly every rocket attack, suicide bombing, spacial detonation, ambush, whatever.

Most Respectfully,
R

So they go into a war zone and get killed in a crossfire.

I don't see a crime here unless American citizens are targeted because they are known to be Americans.

 

[RoccoR]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Yes, there are always the case of the exception.

We saw Rachel Corrie murdered by Israel and nothing done about that. So much for American Justice, it does not exist!

(COMMENT)

While it is true that Rachel Corrie was killed, she would not have been killed if she had not placed herself in harms way. Israel is not the US. There is no country in the world that pampers activist like the US. This was investigated.

You may not think it is fair, but being an American does not exempt you from the laws of another sovereign nation.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I believe I said "indiscriminate targets."

I don't believe that they were targeted as Americans.

Do you have a link?

(COMMENT)

You cannot get off the hook by saying they were not specifically targeted as Americans (they were murdered in the commission of a terrorist act). They were killed by terrorists during a terrorist action. This is the depraved indifference to human life (American and others).

The Palestinian demonstrate the depraved indifference to human life in nearly every rocket attack, suicide bombing, spacial detonation, ambush, whatever.

Most Respectfully,
R

So they go into a war zone and get killed in a crossfire.

I don't see a crime here unless American citizens are targeted because they are known to be Americans.

Tinnie, you're pissing into the wind here.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Ah, interesting.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I believe I said "indiscriminate targets."

I don't believe that they were targeted as Americans.

Do you have a link?

(COMMENT)

You cannot get off the hook by saying they were not specifically targeted as Americans (they were murdered in the commission of a terrorist act). They were killed by terrorists during a terrorist action. This is the depraved indifference to human life (American and others).

The Palestinian demonstrate the depraved indifference to human life in nearly every rocket attack, suicide bombing, spacial detonation, ambush, whatever.

Most Respectfully,
R

So they go into a war zone and get killed in a crossfire.

I don't see a crime here unless American citizens are targeted because they are known to be Americans.

(COMMENT)

I see. A "War Zone." Nonsense.

The Palestinians are at war with the Israelis, is that your position? I'm not sure you understand the ramifications of that statement.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Yes, there are always the case of the exception.

We saw Rachel Corrie murdered by Israel and nothing done about that. So much for American Justice, it does not exist!

(COMMENT)

While it is true that Rachel Corrie was killed, she would not have been killed if she had not placed herself in harms way. Israel is not the US. There is no country in the world that pampers activist like the US. This was investigated.

You may not think it is fair, but being an American does not exempt you from the laws of another sovereign nation.

Most Respectfully,
R

she would not have been killed if she had not placed herself in harms way.

Can I use this line about those Americans getting killed?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Ah, interesting.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I believe I said "indiscriminate targets."


(COMMENT)

You cannot get off the hook by saying they were not specifically targeted as Americans (they were murdered in the commission of a terrorist act). They were killed by terrorists during a terrorist action. This is the depraved indifference to human life (American and others).

The Palestinian demonstrate the depraved indifference to human life in nearly every rocket attack, suicide bombing, spacial detonation, ambush, whatever.

Most Respectfully,
R

So they go into a war zone and get killed in a crossfire.

I don't see a crime here unless American citizens are targeted because they are known to be Americans.

(COMMENT)

I see. A "War Zone." Nonsense.

The Palestinians are at war with the Israelis, is that your position? I'm not sure you understand the ramifications of that statement.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel started a war with the Palestinians a hundred years ago. Maybe some people have not noticed the conflict.

 

[Connery]

Cast Lead, Amnesty's discussion about Israel's claim Hamas was using civilians as human shields:

"4.2.2 ISRAELI ALLEGATIONS ABOUT USE OF “HUMAN SHIELDS”

"The allegation that Hamas was using “human shields” was repeatedly made by Israeli
government and army officials and spokespersons. In response to any questions about attacks by their own forces against Palestinian civilians or civilian objects or about the impact of their forces’ operations on the civilian population of Gaza, Israeli officials invariably responded that Hamas must be held responsible for any harm caused to civilians by Israeli attacks."

"Amnesty International, for its part, did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian
groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel. In particular, it
found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield
military objectives from attacks. By contrast, Amnesty International did find that Israeli
forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve as “human shields”. In any event, international humanitarian law makes clear that use of “human shields” by one party does not release the attacking party from its legal obligations with respect to civilians."

http://www.hybridstates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mde150152009en.pdf

Two points about this, first, in Cast Lead, there was no finding Palestinians used civilians as human shields. Second, even if they had, Israel still owes the very same obligations to civilians as it had if civilians had not been used as human shields. This means Israel cannot directly target civilians and civilian objects, whether or not Hamas uses civilians as human shields. And Israel cannot engage in disproportionate or indiscriminate attacks, whether Hamas uses civilians as human shields or not. Israel's obligations to abide by The Fourth Geneva Convention do not change.

Conceivably, you can have a situation where a civilian shield is killed. Btselem addressed an incident where a man Israel was using as a human shield was killed. Israel commits a war crime by using that civilian as a human shield. And if we had evidence the Palestinians who killed the human shield knew the man was a Palestinian civilian, they would be committing a war crime, too.

Conclusion, commissions of war crimes by one side do not operate to relieve the other side from abiding by provisions of The Fourth Geneva Convention.

Sherri

sherri Amnesty International used and relied upon "btselem" as a source in their "report".

As you are aware btselem asserted, "First, the Palestinian organizations firing rockets and mortars openly state that one of their aims is to harm Israeli civilians. Attacks aimed at civilians undermine all principles of morality and law. The intentional killing of civilians is classified as a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention and therefore a war crime. As such it cannot be justified, whatever the circumstances. Furthermore, rockets and mortars are unlawful weapons, even if aimed at military objects: they are not precise and by their nature endanger civilians in the area from which they are launched and where they land, thus contravening fundamental principles of the laws of warfare: distinction and proportionality."

"In addition, in a significant number of cases, Palestinians fire from within areas in which civilians live. International humanitarian law forbids attacks from inside civilian houses or from areas adjacent to civilian houses, and also prohibits using civilians as human shields.Palestinian organizations that fire rockets at Israeli communities from inside or near populated areas contravene this prohibition, too. In doing so, they show not only their desire to injure Israeli civilians, but also their indifference to the lives of Palestinian civilians."

http://www.btselem.org/download/20090909_cast_lead_fatalities_eng.pdf

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I believe I said "indiscriminate targets."

P F Tinmore, et al,

Ah, yes. I've heard this before.


(COMMENT)

Yes, indiscriminate targeting is a characteristic of many terrorist actions.

Rest assured, in every case where the nation of Israel (GOI) is directly or indirectly involved in the death of an American through misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, it is throughly investigated. There have been many, many cases where the GOI has been brought to justice and an equitable settlement arranged.

But, again --- this is subterfuge. The commission of a crime by one party is not justification for the commission of a crime by another party.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't believe that they were targeted as Americans.

Do you have a link?

(COMMENT)

You cannot get off the hook by saying they were not specifically targeted as Americans (they were murdered in the commission of a terrorist act). They were killed by terrorists during a terrorist action. This is the depraved indifference to human life (American and others).

The Palestinian demonstrate the depraved indifference to human life in nearly every rocket attack, suicide bombing, spacial detonation, ambush, whatever.

Most Respectfully,
R

But Israel's war crimes are acts of terror and these war crimes have killed over 1500 Palestinian children since 2000.

And besides American Rachel Corrie, Israel also killed an American citizen, an 18 year old boy, on a boat, in an act of terror carried out when a Turkish boat tried to take humanitarian aid to Gaza.

Israel can apparently kill American citizens with impunity!

Why is that?

Sherri

 

[RoccoR]

Hossfly; SherriMunnerlyn; P F Tinmore; et al,

I don't believe the final word has been spoken yet.

I don't believe that they were targeted as Americans.

Do you have a link?

We saw Rachel Corrie murdered by Israel and nothing done about that. So much for American Justice, it does not exist!

"We" ain't seen diddly.

(COMMENT)

The wheels of justice grind slow, especially in these kinds of incidents.

Israeli inquiry into Rachel Corrie death insufficient, US ambassador tells family
US government does not believe military inquiry was 'thorough, credible and transparent', as family await verdict in civil suit.
SOURCE: Israeli inquiry into Rachel Corrie death insufficient, US ambassador tells family | World news | guardian.co.uk

But the AMBO is not done. I believe the RSO Team investigated.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Maybe. If the Palestinians believe they have a cause of action, then they need to bring it forward.

But Israel's war crimes are acts of terror and these war crimes have killed over 1500 Palestinian children since 2000.

(COMMENT)

I cannot defend Israel's every action. But, there is no sane person on the Earth that has not witnessed the depraved indifference by placing military targets under cover of civilians.

If they Palestinians can make the case, let them come forward.

Most Respectfully,
R

Reference:

(Article 51, Protocol I).
[(Article 52, Protocol I)].

• 
  Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
• International Humanitarian Law - Additional Protocol I 1977

• Rule 97. The use of human shields is prohibited.
• Customary IHL - Rule 97. Human Shields
  
  "In addition, deliberately using civilians to shield military operations is contrary to the principle of distinction and violates the obligation to take feasible precautions to separate civilians and military objectives (see Rules 23–24)."​

 

[P F Tinmore]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Yes, there are always the case of the exception.

We saw Rachel Corrie murdered by Israel and nothing done about that. So much for American Justice, it does not exist!

(COMMENT)

While it is true that Rachel Corrie was killed, she would not have been killed if she had not placed herself in harms way. Israel is not the US. There is no country in the world that pampers activist like the US. This was investigated.

You may not think it is fair, but being an American does not exempt you from the laws of another sovereign nation.

Most Respectfully,
R

...but being an American does not exempt you from the laws of another sovereign nation.

Rachel Corrie was killed in Gaza. What sovereign nation are you talking about?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Maybe. If the Palestinians believe they have a cause of action, then they need to bring it forward.

But Israel's war crimes are acts of terror and these war crimes have killed over 1500 Palestinian children since 2000.

(COMMENT)

I cannot defend Israel's every action. But, there is no sane person on the Earth that has not witnessed the depraved indifference by placing military targets under cover of civilians.

If they Palestinians can make the case, let them come forward.

Most Respectfully,
R

Reference:

(Article 51, Protocol I).
[(Article 52, Protocol I)].

• 
  Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
• International Humanitarian Law - Additional Protocol I 1977

• Rule 97. The use of human shields is prohibited.
• Customary IHL - Rule 97. Human Shields
  
  "In addition, deliberately using civilians to shield military operations is contrary to the principle of distinction and violates the obligation to take feasible precautions to separate civilians and military objectives (see Rules 23–24)."​

They are trying to get the cases before an intl criminal court and there is no finding they are using civilians as human shields.

 

[RoccoR]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

I have been just as critical of Israeli actions, as I have been against the Palestinians.

But Israel's war crimes are acts of terror and these war crimes have killed over 1500 Palestinian children since 2000.

And besides American Rachel Corrie, Israel also killed an American citizen, an 18 year old boy, on a boat, in an act of terror carried out when a Turkish boat tried to take humanitarian aid to Gaza.

Israel can apparently kill American citizens with impunity!

Why is that?

Sherri

(COMMENT)

Neither side has clean hands. And you'll notice that I came down hard on several Israeli calls.

But the attempt to shift the focus of the argument by saying that the Palestinians are justified in conducting terrorist activity just because the Israelis have done something wrong, is ludicrous.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

I have been just as critical of Israeli actions, as I have been against the Palestinians.

But Israel's war crimes are acts of terror and these war crimes have killed over 1500 Palestinian children since 2000.

And besides American Rachel Corrie, Israel also killed an American citizen, an 18 year old boy, on a boat, in an act of terror carried out when a Turkish boat tried to take humanitarian aid to Gaza.

Israel can apparently kill American citizens with impunity!

Why is that?

Sherri

(COMMENT)

Neither side has clean hands. And you'll notice that I came down hard on several Israeli calls.

But the attempt to shift the focus of the argument by saying that the Palestinians are justified in conducting terrorist activity just because the Israelis have done something wrong, is ludicrous.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Most Respectfully,
R

What terrorist activity are the Palestinians conducting?

 

[Hossfly]

SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Maybe. If the Palestinians believe they have a cause of action, then they need to bring it forward.

But Israel's war crimes are acts of terror and these war crimes have killed over 1500 Palestinian children since 2000.

(COMMENT)

I cannot defend Israel's every action. But, there is no sane person on the Earth that has not witnessed the depraved indifference by placing military targets under cover of civilians.

If they Palestinians can make the case, let them come forward.

Most Respectfully,
R

Reference:

(Article 51, Protocol I).
[(Article 52, Protocol I)].

• 
  Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
• International Humanitarian Law - Additional Protocol I 1977

• Rule 97. The use of human shields is prohibited.
• Customary IHL - Rule 97. Human Shields
  
  "In addition, deliberately using civilians to shield military operations is contrary to the principle of distinction and violates the obligation to take feasible precautions to separate civilians and military objectives (see Rules 23–24)."​

They are trying to get the cases before an intl criminal court and there is no finding they are using civilians as human shields.

Rachel Corrie Trial In Israel | The Rachel Corrie Foundation for Peace and Justice