Gunny's Thread on Religion
- Thread starter Gunny
- Start date
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rdean
Guest
Nazi's killed Jews. Jews are religious.
Soviets killed the faithful in a desire to stamp out religion.
Whether it's killing in the name of religion, or killing the faithful, it still involves religion.
JBeukema
Rookie
- Banned
- #803
nazis killed semites. Semittes are an ethnicity.
They also killed polacs and Roma. Both are ethnicities.
They killed based on ethnicity, not on religion.
Hitler was a Catholic,
The Soviets killed anyone and everyone who wouldn't worship Stalin as a demi-god.
You want religiously-based genocide? Read the bible.
No different than slaughtering others for other reasons? Because the neighboring tribe bumped uglies with their women, or stole their goat, or looked at them wrong. There are plenty reasons that people have been slaughtered...religion is just one of them
mystic
soul on legs
Bravo.
I will say this. I think the reason that religious discussions deteriorate so quickly is that our beliefs (whatever they may be) are the foundation of ourselves and how we see ourselves.
Therefore any attack on the belief is felt as a personal attack.
Regarding religion being the catalyst for war, I've had the opinion for quite sometime that wars, or even terrorism, are not caused by religion but by politics. Men in power (and men who want to be in power) use religion for justification for agressive actions. Probably because it proposes to give a higher moral authority to their actions. Plus it gives weight for their views to their followers. With their mouths they spout that it's for their religion, but in their hearts it's a different story. When you speak with truly religious people, they are against aggression. How could they be? No religion on earth supports aggression.
mystic
soul on legs
Clearly, you've never read the bible
Which one?
If you're talking about Old Testament stuff, you're right, there's some really raunchy stuff in there. I guess the New Testament is the kinder, gentler version. Christians usually respond to this by saying that they follow the New Testament. Plus, if you speak with someone very knowledgable about Christianity, I'm sure that they could debate that point much more elequently then I could. I haven't been Christian since I was about 12. Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Do unto others..."? and "whatever you do to the least of my brethren.."? and similar sayings? Which shows the basis of the religion has nothing to do with aggression.
JBeukema
Rookie
- Banned
- #809
Clearly, you've never read the bible
Which one?
Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Do unto others..."? and "whatever you do to the least of my brethren.."? and similar sayings? Which shows the basis of the religion has nothing to do with aggression.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...ods-law-in-new-testament-moral-judgments.html
Kalam
Senior Member
- Mar 5, 2009
- 8,866
- 785
- 48
Why were so many individuals able to succeed in spite of this "regressiveness" compared to the rest of the world, including Christian Europe?
Regarding your flawed analysis of Islam and Science:
"We identify seven Islamic teachings as the driving forces behind this development of
modern scientific methods that took place in the Islamic civilization:
(1) Respect for observation. The Qur'an orders man to observe nature and thus spurs
us towards the scientific method of induction.
Say: "Behold all that is
In the heavens and on earth";
But neither Signs nor Warners
Profit those who believe not.
Qur'an (10:101)
If there were, in the heavens
And the earth, other gods
Besides God, there would
Have been confusion in both!
Qur'an (21:22)
The contrast between the Islamic view of a nature packed with the signs of God that we
are commanded to observe with the Platonic distrust of the senses is unmistakable.
Muhammad Iqbal has emphasized that “the general empirical attitude of the Qur'an
which engendered in its followers a feeling of reverence for the actual, and ultimately
made them the founders of modern science. It was a great point to awaken the empirical
spirit in an age that renounced the visible as of no value in men's search after God”
(quoted by Siddiqi 1986).
The Qur'an does not see empirical observation, rational thought, and gnostic
contemplation as pulling men in different directions. It insists that all lead to God. Thus,
we are repeatedly exhorted to "see,"3 to "think,"4 and to "contemplate."5
(2) Universality. As Islam spread, its universality prevented the Arabs from a
crippling disdain for the scientific knowledge of the Greeks, Persians, Indians, Chinese,
etc. All good comes from God. This open-minded embrace of knowledge from any
source is reflected in the Islamic proverb advising the Muslims to "seek knowledge even
unto China" (Azizullah 1972). One exemplary case of how the Prophet himself applied
this principle was when he ditched his own plans for the defense of Medina in order to
adopt a plan to dig a trench around the city, put forward by Salman-al-Farsi. This was a
technique that the Persian Salman had picked up in his homeland and was hitherto
unknown in Arabia. The Prophet judged the suggestion by its merits, not by the
nationality of the proposer. This objectivity about the sources of knowledge is, of course,
merely an extension of Islam's more general principle of brotherhood:
O mankind! We created
You from a single (pair)
Of a male and a female,
And made you into
Nations and tribes, that
Ye may know each other
(Not that ye may despise
Each other)Â….
Qur'an (49:13)
The expanding Muslim civilization was "the first to give science the international
character which we consider one of its fundamental characteristics" (Taton 1963).
(3) Absence of a priesthood. The abolition of the priesthood and prohibitions of
secrecy prevented scientific knowledge from becoming the property of an elite.
Knowledge was available to everyone. In the Christian world, people went to the church
for religious instruction only. Even that instruction was a "lay" instruction, fit for the
layman. Reading of the Bible itself was discouraged for those not initiated into the
priesthood. The subtle doctrines of Christian theology might confuse the layman and
weaken his faith. It was better to provide him with pre-digested teaching.
By contrast every Muslim was expected to read and preferably memorize the Qur'an.
(The very first word of the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad was the commandment
"Read!") All knowledge was considered sacred and people came to the mosque to study
not only the Qur'an and the traditions, but mathematics, history, natural science, etc. As
the numbers of teachers and classes exceeded the space in the mosque, additional
buildings would be added around it. Thus, the world came to know its first modern
universities.
Terms coined in that era are still in use today. The teachers would sit in low chairs with
the students gathered on the carpeted floor around them. A new student interested in
learning, say mathematics, could walk into the mosque and ask, "Where is the chair of
mathematics?" or "Where is the chair of astronomy?"
(4) Material success. A materially successful society can afford to support pure
science. Other previous societies that had enjoyed some degree of prosperity had also supported science. The prosperity under Islam, however, was unprecedented, especially
given the way it was spread throughout almost all layers of society. Before Islamic
civilization had reached its second century, patronage of the arts and sciences had
reached new heights.
(5) Academic freedom. Academic freedom, necessary for science to move forward,
was inherent in the Islamic idea of individual responsibility. The Qur'an advises man that
God is "nearer to him than (his) jugular vein" (50:16), that "no bearer of burdens can bear
the burdens of another" (53:38), and "Whoever works any act of righteousness and has
faith,–his endeavor will not be rejected: We shall record it in his favor" (21:94). As
everyone is directly responsible to the Creator, and the priesthood is abolished, disputes
are to be resolved not by human authority but by truth–whatever God may have decreed
it to be.
The Western ChurchÂ’s interference into scientific matters was based on what was
perceived to be a threat to the religion. In Islam, even matters of religion are not exempt
from frank and honest discussion. Consider this excerpt from a letter of Hashimi, a cousin
of the Caliph Ma'mun, to a religious opponent:
... bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and
speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you
please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean
only towards the truth and be free from the empery of passion, and that arbitrator
shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and
punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security
and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me.
For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited
you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the
hideousness of your present belief. Peace be with you and the blessings of God!
(Arnold 1913)
(6) Development of principals of proper citation. The natural sciences in Islam had a
model in the development of the religious sciences as to proper citation and investigation
of the credibility of sources. The early Muslims, like the early Christians, had to contend
with a plethora of "traditions" attributed to the religion's founder. The Christians relied on
the authority of a central Church (backed by the state) to resolve the issue. Having no
priesthood, the Muslim scholars invented new techniques of historical scholarship.
Scholars such as Imams Bukhari and Muslim went on long expeditions to track down
traditions (called hadith) attributed to the Prophet's companions to their sources. They
determined the complete chain of transmission from the Prophet's companion to the
particular reporter whom they were able to find. They made biographies of every
transmitter in the chain to determine their reliability for honesty, soundness of memory,
plausibility of having met adjacent members in the chain of transmission, etc. Thus,
Muslim historians became accustomed to the process of citation, something that is an
indispensable part of modern science. The vagueness of ancient historians about their
sources stands in stark contrast to the insistence that scholars such as Bukhari and
Muslim manifested in knowing every member in a chain of transmission and examining
their reliability. They published their findings, which were then subjected to additional
scrutiny by future scholars for consistency with each other and the Qur'an. By the third
century of Islam this methodology was well developed.
Such open "historical criticism" of the Islamic traditions is a process to which Christian
texts have been subjected only in recent centuries. It is a process of analysis and
preservation in the form of a scientific study. Hadith science was original with Islam. It
was the first uniquely Islamic science and provided a precedent for open and rigorous
scholarly debate in the natural sciences that were being assimilated into the emerging
Islamic culture.
(7) Emphasis on learning and study. From the very first word of the Qur'an revealed
(Iqra!, which means "Read!"), praising the "Lord who taught man by the pen," the Qur'an
(96:1) emphasizes learning and study in all its aspects. Qur'anic teachings on the
importance of knowledge to religion and the pointing out of the signs of God in the
heavens and on earth provided an incentive for the patronage of science.
It is He Who created
The Night and the Day,
And the sun and the moon:
All (the celestial bodies)
Swim along, each in its
Rounded course.
Qur'an (21:33)"
modern scientific methods that took place in the Islamic civilization:
(1) Respect for observation. The Qur'an orders man to observe nature and thus spurs
us towards the scientific method of induction.
Say: "Behold all that is
In the heavens and on earth";
But neither Signs nor Warners
Profit those who believe not.
Qur'an (10:101)
If there were, in the heavens
And the earth, other gods
Besides God, there would
Have been confusion in both!
Qur'an (21:22)
The contrast between the Islamic view of a nature packed with the signs of God that we
are commanded to observe with the Platonic distrust of the senses is unmistakable.
Muhammad Iqbal has emphasized that “the general empirical attitude of the Qur'an
which engendered in its followers a feeling of reverence for the actual, and ultimately
made them the founders of modern science. It was a great point to awaken the empirical
spirit in an age that renounced the visible as of no value in men's search after God”
(quoted by Siddiqi 1986).
The Qur'an does not see empirical observation, rational thought, and gnostic
contemplation as pulling men in different directions. It insists that all lead to God. Thus,
we are repeatedly exhorted to "see,"3 to "think,"4 and to "contemplate."5
(2) Universality. As Islam spread, its universality prevented the Arabs from a
crippling disdain for the scientific knowledge of the Greeks, Persians, Indians, Chinese,
etc. All good comes from God. This open-minded embrace of knowledge from any
source is reflected in the Islamic proverb advising the Muslims to "seek knowledge even
unto China" (Azizullah 1972). One exemplary case of how the Prophet himself applied
this principle was when he ditched his own plans for the defense of Medina in order to
adopt a plan to dig a trench around the city, put forward by Salman-al-Farsi. This was a
technique that the Persian Salman had picked up in his homeland and was hitherto
unknown in Arabia. The Prophet judged the suggestion by its merits, not by the
nationality of the proposer. This objectivity about the sources of knowledge is, of course,
merely an extension of Islam's more general principle of brotherhood:
O mankind! We created
You from a single (pair)
Of a male and a female,
And made you into
Nations and tribes, that
Ye may know each other
(Not that ye may despise
Each other)Â….
Qur'an (49:13)
The expanding Muslim civilization was "the first to give science the international
character which we consider one of its fundamental characteristics" (Taton 1963).
(3) Absence of a priesthood. The abolition of the priesthood and prohibitions of
secrecy prevented scientific knowledge from becoming the property of an elite.
Knowledge was available to everyone. In the Christian world, people went to the church
for religious instruction only. Even that instruction was a "lay" instruction, fit for the
layman. Reading of the Bible itself was discouraged for those not initiated into the
priesthood. The subtle doctrines of Christian theology might confuse the layman and
weaken his faith. It was better to provide him with pre-digested teaching.
By contrast every Muslim was expected to read and preferably memorize the Qur'an.
(The very first word of the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad was the commandment
"Read!") All knowledge was considered sacred and people came to the mosque to study
not only the Qur'an and the traditions, but mathematics, history, natural science, etc. As
the numbers of teachers and classes exceeded the space in the mosque, additional
buildings would be added around it. Thus, the world came to know its first modern
universities.
Terms coined in that era are still in use today. The teachers would sit in low chairs with
the students gathered on the carpeted floor around them. A new student interested in
learning, say mathematics, could walk into the mosque and ask, "Where is the chair of
mathematics?" or "Where is the chair of astronomy?"
(4) Material success. A materially successful society can afford to support pure
science. Other previous societies that had enjoyed some degree of prosperity had also supported science. The prosperity under Islam, however, was unprecedented, especially
given the way it was spread throughout almost all layers of society. Before Islamic
civilization had reached its second century, patronage of the arts and sciences had
reached new heights.
(5) Academic freedom. Academic freedom, necessary for science to move forward,
was inherent in the Islamic idea of individual responsibility. The Qur'an advises man that
God is "nearer to him than (his) jugular vein" (50:16), that "no bearer of burdens can bear
the burdens of another" (53:38), and "Whoever works any act of righteousness and has
faith,–his endeavor will not be rejected: We shall record it in his favor" (21:94). As
everyone is directly responsible to the Creator, and the priesthood is abolished, disputes
are to be resolved not by human authority but by truth–whatever God may have decreed
it to be.
The Western ChurchÂ’s interference into scientific matters was based on what was
perceived to be a threat to the religion. In Islam, even matters of religion are not exempt
from frank and honest discussion. Consider this excerpt from a letter of Hashimi, a cousin
of the Caliph Ma'mun, to a religious opponent:
... bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and
speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you
please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean
only towards the truth and be free from the empery of passion, and that arbitrator
shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and
punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security
and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me.
For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited
you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the
hideousness of your present belief. Peace be with you and the blessings of God!
(Arnold 1913)
(6) Development of principals of proper citation. The natural sciences in Islam had a
model in the development of the religious sciences as to proper citation and investigation
of the credibility of sources. The early Muslims, like the early Christians, had to contend
with a plethora of "traditions" attributed to the religion's founder. The Christians relied on
the authority of a central Church (backed by the state) to resolve the issue. Having no
priesthood, the Muslim scholars invented new techniques of historical scholarship.
Scholars such as Imams Bukhari and Muslim went on long expeditions to track down
traditions (called hadith) attributed to the Prophet's companions to their sources. They
determined the complete chain of transmission from the Prophet's companion to the
particular reporter whom they were able to find. They made biographies of every
transmitter in the chain to determine their reliability for honesty, soundness of memory,
plausibility of having met adjacent members in the chain of transmission, etc. Thus,
Muslim historians became accustomed to the process of citation, something that is an
indispensable part of modern science. The vagueness of ancient historians about their
sources stands in stark contrast to the insistence that scholars such as Bukhari and
Muslim manifested in knowing every member in a chain of transmission and examining
their reliability. They published their findings, which were then subjected to additional
scrutiny by future scholars for consistency with each other and the Qur'an. By the third
century of Islam this methodology was well developed.
Such open "historical criticism" of the Islamic traditions is a process to which Christian
texts have been subjected only in recent centuries. It is a process of analysis and
preservation in the form of a scientific study. Hadith science was original with Islam. It
was the first uniquely Islamic science and provided a precedent for open and rigorous
scholarly debate in the natural sciences that were being assimilated into the emerging
Islamic culture.
(7) Emphasis on learning and study. From the very first word of the Qur'an revealed
(Iqra!, which means "Read!"), praising the "Lord who taught man by the pen," the Qur'an
(96:1) emphasizes learning and study in all its aspects. Qur'anic teachings on the
importance of knowledge to religion and the pointing out of the signs of God in the
heavens and on earth provided an incentive for the patronage of science.
It is He Who created
The Night and the Day,
And the sun and the moon:
All (the celestial bodies)
Swim along, each in its
Rounded course.
Qur'an (21:33)"
- Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad, "The Rise and Fall of Islamic Science: The Calendar as a Case Study."
Ptolemaic geocentrism was the dominant theory of the time. Other Muslims apparently considered the possibility of heliocentrism.
Al-Sijzi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As an accomplished physicist, why didn't Newton develop the Theory of Special Relativity?
My question makes about as much sense as yours.
What? You're thinking of a completely different person. Namely:
Qotb al-Din Shirazi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You say this repeatedly as if doing so will make it true. I have yet to see a shred of evidence from you supporting this position.
See above.
Incorrect. He died after being placed under house arrest for his affiliation with a Persian noble family that fell out of favor.
Inaccurate. His beating was most likely connected to "scholarly rivalries" at the translation center where he had worked. His possible persecution at the hands of a single, anti-Mu'tazilite caliph had nothing to do with Islam itself. Previous caliphs had funded his education, appointed him to scholarly positions, and asked him to tutor their children. Read the Wiki article; it won't kill you.
Explain how Arabic, Moorish, Malinese, Persian, Ottoman, and other forms of Islamic architecture were nothing but direct plagiarizations of Assyrian and Greek architecture.
I've never attributed the concept of zero to Islamic science.
Hey, why'd you stop? What civilizations were these inventions stolen from by filthy, science-hating Muslims?
Inventions of the Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Source?
Makkah was not the capital. The capital was at Baghdad (and elsewhere at other times), where science flourished.
As with most of your arguments, history does not support this baseless contention.
No
I have this tattooed on my wrist, it is abarbic for kafir/kaafir
Islam Question and Answer - Â*Muslim attitudes towards violence and how to react to kaafir aggression against the Muslim community
I am hostile to Islam.
mystic
soul on legs
No
I have this tattooed on my wrist, it is abarbic for kafir/kaafir
Islam Question and Answer - Â*Muslim attitudes towards violence and how to react to kaafir aggression against the Muslim community
I am hostile to Islam.
Wow.
I'm going to assume that those kind of deep feelings that would lead you to tattoo a permanant reminder were not developed from reading propaganda material but from actual life experience? And if so, how do you know that your experience is of Islam and not culture?
I'm not Muslim but I have many friends who are. I'm sure it's easy for you to find ridiculous sounding fatwas and hadiths, because as I said, culture trumps religion. But really it's like studying Christianity from the KKK. Who, by the way, are perfectly convinced that they are true Christians and living a Christian lifestyle.
You can find more violent passages in the Bible then in the Quran. So why dislike Islam more then Christianity?
Just trying to understand.
I found both these pieces interesting and worth a read.
The global war for souls « Prospect Magazine
Thought Experiments : The Blog: God. Again. Again
The global war for souls « Prospect Magazine
Thought Experiments : The Blog: God. Again. Again
mystic
soul on legs
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