Gunny's Thread on Religion

[DiveCon]

Kalam,

Is it true that the Prophet Mohhamed was sexually aroused by young girls and that he was married to a 6 year-old? I'm sure you can answer this question what with being an expert on Islam.

Lol! So says the ex-priest with a liking for young choir boys! Still using that rosary as anal love beads?

maybe he's looking to change religions so he can have sex with kids again

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

No, you are the innovator.

Wrong.

Please provide passages from the Qur'an demonstrating that I am guilty of departure from its message. Mu'tazili beliefs are over 1,000 years old and are built atop a purely Qur'anic foundation.

You are free to follow your interpretation.
Other muslims consider your beliefs bidah .
I personally do not care, You just provide me the foil by which to present alternative views on Islam.
Was Islam spread by the sword?

Question:
Some enemies of the religion claim that Islam was spread by the sword. What is your response to that?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Islam was spread by proof and evidence, in the case of those who listened to the message and responded to it. And it was spread by strength and the sword in the case of those who stubbornly resisted, until they had no choice and had to submit to the new reality.

And Allaah is the source of strength. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions, and grant them peace.

Fataawaa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 12/14

 

[SW2SILVER]

Allah came unto me in a dream. He chooseth me, as a prophet. And, he did speak unto me: " Tell all the devout, the chosen ones, that upon the hearing of this testimony, that thoust devout believers shall find the sharpest knife, and upon their throats, they shall cut for the honor and glory of Allah." Really, no kidding. So, need any help with that? You GOT to do it, no choice. Sorry. It's Allah's will. No man can argue that. Not buying this crap? OK. Why buy any of the crap in the Quran, then, a bunch of jerks wrote that crap, too. No prophets, there are no prophets. Never were. Just mystical superstitious mumbo jumbo.

 

[Kalam]

Kalam,

Is it true that the Prophet Mohhamed was sexually aroused by young girls and that he was married to a 6 year-old? I'm sure you can answer this question what with being an expert on Islam.

Not exactly. See:

So Mohammad did not marry a 9 year old? Is that your claim?

Well, if you believe that, I'm assuming you believe that everything in Bukhari's hadith collection is true. That's the origin of that claim. So, are you Sunni or Shi'ah?

Her age was lowered in that report so that no questions would be raised about her virginity, and by extension, the legitimacy of Muhammad's offspring through her.

Source: "All of these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity. They also suggest the variability of Aisha's age in the historical record." - D. A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past.​

In reality, she had been betrothed to Jubair Ibn al Mut'am, a pagan, before her engagement to Muhammad. Jubair eventually annulled their engagement. In at least two separate sources it is pointed out that Asma bint Abi Bakr, Aisha's half-sister, was 100 years old when she died in 73 AH. That would make Aisha 90 in 73 AH.

Source: "Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha." - Ibn Kathir, Al-bidayya wal-nihaya

"She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years." - Mishkat al-Masabih​

Aisha's marriage to Muhammad took place in the year of the Hijra, 1 AH or 622 AD. You do the math...

 

[Kalam]

You are free to follow your interpretation.
Other muslims consider your beliefs bidah .
I personally do not care, You just provide me the foil by which to present alternative views on Islam.

What is it that you hope to accomplish in doing this? People seem to be fully aware of what Islam can become when abused by radicals. One of my intentions in posting here was to offer an alternative viewpoint.

Was Islam spread by the sword?

After the prophet's death? Probably. That is when deviation from the straight path began.

Islam, The Spread Of Islam

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You are free to follow your interpretation.
Other muslims consider your beliefs bidah .
I personally do not care, You just provide me the foil by which to present alternative views on Islam.

What is it that you hope to accomplish in doing this? People seem to be fully aware of what Islam can become when abused by radicals. One of my intentions in posting here was to offer an alternative viewpoint.

Was Islam spread by the sword?

After the prophet's death? Probably. That is when deviation from the straight path began.

Islam, The Spread Of Islam

We already covered this .Mohammad was the aggressor a liar who had to leave makka when exposed as such, He was a thief who brought shame on the jews who gave him shelter in median .
It was wobbly from the start, you cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
Dont blame the radicals.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1362779-post268.html

What really happened to the Banu Qurayza ?

 

[AllieBaba]

No, you are the innovator.

Wrong.

Please provide passages from the Qur'an demonstrating that I am guilty of departure from its message. Mu'tazili beliefs are over 1,000 years old and are built atop a purely Qur'anic foundation.

You are free to follow your interpretation.
Other muslims consider your beliefs bidah .
I personally do not care, You just provide me the foil by which to present alternative views on Islam.
Was Islam spread by the sword?

Question:
Some enemies of the religion claim that Islam was spread by the sword. What is your response to that?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Islam was spread by proof and evidence, in the case of those who listened to the message and responded to it. And it was spread by strength and the sword in the case of those who stubbornly resisted, until they had no choice and had to submit to the new reality.

And Allaah is the source of strength. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions, and grant them peace.

Fataawaa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 12/14

Islam was spread by the sword, invasion, treachery, butchery and slavery.

 

[AllieBaba]

"For centuries, from the Iberian peninsula to the Indian subcontinent, jihad campaigns waged by Muslim armies against infidel Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Buddhists and Hindus, were punctuated by massacres, including mass throat slittings and beheadings. During the period of �enlightened� Muslim rule, the Christians of Iberian Toledo, who had first submitted to their Arab Muslim invaders in 711 or 712, revolted in 713. In the harsh Muslim reprisal that ensued, Toledo was pillaged, and all the Christian notables had their throats cut. On the Indian subcontinent, Babur (1483-1530), the founder of the Mughal Empire, who is revered as a paragon of Muslim tolerance by modern revisionist historians, recorded the following in his autobiographical �Baburnama,� about infidel prisoners of a jihad campaign:

"Those who were brought in alive [having surrendered] were ordered beheaded, after which a tower of skulls was erected in the camp." [The Baburnama -Memoirs of Babur, Prince and Emperor, translated and edited by Wheeler M. Thacktson, Oxford University Press,1996, p. 188. Emphasis added.]

Mohammed and beheading : Melbourne Indymedia

 

[AllieBaba]

Here's an interesting comment on "obfuscating" Islam. I.e., whitewashing it, as Kalam so loves to do:

""As long as Islamist advocacy groups continue to obfuscate the problem, and government and police officials accept their inaccurate versions of reality, women will continue to be killed for honor in the West, such murder may even accelerate," Chesler wrote. "Unchecked by Western law, their blood will be on society's hands."

M. Zuhdi Jasser, founder and chairman of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, agreed with Chesler.

"It certainly has all the markings of [an honor killing]," Jasser told FOXNews.com. "She expressed through the legal system that she was being abused, and at the moment she asked for divorce, she's not only murdered — she's decapitated."
FOXNews.com - Beheading in New York Appears to Be Honor Killing, Experts Say - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

 

[Kalam]

We already covered this .Mohammad was the aggressor a liar who had to leave makka when exposed as such, He was a thief who brought shame on the jews who gave him shelter in median .
It was wobbly from the start, you cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
Dont blame the radicals.

Of course, you have no scholarly information or historical evidence to corroborate these slanderous remarks.

What really happened to the Banu Qurayza ?

They were executed for treason.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

We already covered this .Mohammad was the aggressor a liar who had to leave makka when exposed as such, He was a thief who brought shame on the jews who gave him shelter in median .
It was wobbly from the start, you cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
Dont blame the radicals.

Of course, you have no scholarly information or historical evidence to corroborate these slanderous remarks.

What really happened to the Banu Qurayza ?

They were executed for treason.

It is common knowledge that mohammad abandon monotheism in favor of riches and power when he utter the satanic verses , That is why he had to leave mekka.
I will restate the documentation shortly, Yes we know you disagree.
Treason?
Mohammad's treaty was made under false pretense, They would never have agreed to be in league with a criminal .

 

[Kalam]

It is common knowledge that mohammad abandon monotheism in favor of riches and power when he utter the satanic verses ,

Already disproved. Please address and refute each of the points made herein if you disagree:

He left because he revealed he was a fraud who had harangued the people of mecca for a decade, then reversed himself with the "satanic verses."

Not even your scholars are on board with that nonsense.

From M. M. Ali's commentary:

Verses 19 –21 are made the basis of the false story of what is called the “Lapse of Muhammad” or “Compromise with idolatry” by Christian writers. Certain reports narrated by Wåqidi and Tabari are the sole authority for this charge against that incessant preacher against idolatry, every incident of whose life condemns it as a bare falsehood. Muir asserts that “Pious Muhammadans of after-days, scandalized at the lapse of their Prophet into so flagrant a concession, would reject the whole story,” as if the earlier Muslims were not as pious as the latter. The fact is that the story was quite unknown to the earlier Muslims. There is not a single trustworthy hadith that lends support to this story. Muhammad ibn Ishåq, who died as early as 151 A.H., does not mention the incident, while Muir’s earliest authority, Wåqidi, was born more than forty years later. It is stated in the Bahrain that when questioned about it, Ibn Ishåq called it a fabrication of the zindeeqs. And the famous Bukhåri, the most trustworthy authority on the sayings of the Holy Prophet, was Wåqidi’s contemporary, and his collection of sayings contains no mention of the story. As regards Wåqidi, all competent authorities entertain a very low opinion of his trustworthiness. The Mizån al-I‘tidål, a critical work on the lives and characters of the reporters of Hadith, speaks of Wåqidi as unreliable and even as a fabricator of reports. As regards Tabari, Muir himself represents him as guilty of “indiscriminate reception”. As against these two unreliable authorities, “those who reject this story are highly learned men” (Ruh al-Ma‘åni). The six collections of reports known as the Sihåh Sittah (or the Six Reliable Works) do not mention it at all, and contain instead a report which essentially contradicts the story of the so-called compromise. Internal evidence, too, is wholly against the story. We are told that instead of v. 21 the Prophet read the words: Tilk al-gharåniq al-‘ulå wa inna shafå‘ata-hunna la-turtajå, i.e., “These are exalted females whose intercession is to be sought”. But the insertion of these few words in a chapter which is wholly directed against idolatry is quite out of place: v. 23 condemns idols; v. 26 denies their intercession; v. 28 condemns the giving of names of female deities to angels, and so on. It is further asserted that 22:52 was revealed in connection with this change, but it should be noted that a period of at least eight years must have elapsed between the revelation of this verse and that of 22:52. Moreover, if the Prophet had made any such compromise, it could not have been a sudden event, and traces of it would have been met with in other chapters revealed about the same time. But a perusal of these shows clearly that the Qur’ån’s condemnation of idolatry was never marked by the slightest change.​

That is why he had to leave mekka.
I will restate the documentation shortly, Yes we know you disagree.

There is no documentation from any credible source, merely your own prejudiced opinions and the similarly worthless opinions of the fools who agree with you. As I've said, I'm interested in facts.

Treason?
Mohammad's treaty was made under false pretense, They would never have agreed to be in league with a criminal .

Muhammad's treaty was upheld by a multitude of other tribes. The Banu Qurayza stabbed their allies - Jews as well as Muslims - in the back when they negotiated with the Quraysh. They were punished accordingly.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Before we explore the satanic verses.Why did mohammad leave mekka what was the circumstances base don whose testimony?

 

[Kalam]

Persecution at the hands of the Quraysh. A group of Muslims had fled to Abyssinia (Ethiopia) seven years earlier to escape similar persecution, but Muhammad did not go with them. Because of the perceived threat Islam posed to the Makkan social order and economy (which was, as it is today, reliant on pilgrimages,) Muhammad was threatened and his followers were persecuted until they set out for a better life in Yathrib.

Hijrah (Islam) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Persecution at the hands of the Quraysh. A group of Muslims had fled to Abyssinia (Ethiopia) seven years earlier to escape similar persecution, but Muhammad did not go with them. Because of the perceived threat Islam posed to the Makkan social order and economy (which was, as it is today, reliant on pilgrimages,) Muhammad was threatened and his followers were persecuted until they set out for a better life in Yathrib.

Hijrah (Islam) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

What did this alleged persecution consist of?
From what source?
Britanica is not considered a reliable Islamic scripture.

 

[Kalam]

What did this alleged persecution consist of?
From what source?

See:
Brief life-sketch of Holy Prophet Muhammad: 2. Preaches at Makka

Thank God that's available online, because I would not type it out or scan it for your sake.

Britanica is not considered a reliable Islamic scripture.

I'm aware of that, you fool.

The only reliable Islamic scripture, the Qur'an, does not discuss the Hijra in detail.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

What did this alleged persecution consist of?
From what source?

See:
Brief life-sketch of Holy Prophet Muhammad: 2. Preaches at Makka

Thank God that's available online, because I would not type it out or scan it for your sake.

That is just hystirical your sources for the scripture are incomplete excepts from Sir William Muir ,compiled and weaved into a story?
Here is the complete Muir comments concerning the satanic verses.
It says something vastly different then MM Ali's paraphrasing.

The life of Mahomet and history of ... - Google Books

 

[Kalam]

That is just hystirical your sources for the scripture are incomplete excepts from Sir William Muir ,compiled and weaved into a story?

References are made to Muir, yes, among a multitude of other sources throughout the book. It is not as if Muir's work forms the backbone of Ali's.

Here is the complete Muir comments concerning the satanic verses. It says something vastly different then MM Ali's paraphrasing.

You have a faulty memory. We were discussing the circumstances surrounding the hijra, not the Satanic verses. An excerpt from one of Muir's works does not imply that he is always to be treated as an incontrovertibly accurate source.

Now, did you have something to say about the Hijra, or are you done here?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

MMA Ali is also incomplete in his opinion of Ishaq being silent on the issue of Mohammads polytheism .

(T. Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as ‎far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them, and the method he ‎adopted is what Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. b. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of ‎Medina from M. b. Ka'b al-Qurazi: When the apostle saw that his people turned their backs on ‎him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed ‎that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him. ‎Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle ‎that made his task so difficult could be removed; so that he meditated on the project and longed ‎for it and it was dear to him. Then God sent down 'By the star when it sets your comrade errs not ‎and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire,' and when he reached His words 'Have ‎you thought of al-Lat and al-'Uzza and Manat the third, the other',‎ 5 Satan, when he was ‎meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it

Satanic Verses — Muhammadanism.org

In Sura Hajj (Pilgrimage) 22:52-53, Muhammad confessed his mistake, alleging that all prophets were tempted by Satan who inspire them with demonic verses, as if they were actually revealed by God. But later on Allah abrogated those Satanic Verses with new revelations and instructs his prophets with new verses. According to Islam, Allah permits such demonic inspiration to test weak believers and to cut off those with hardened hearts.
Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth): Hajj (Pilgrimage) 22:52-53. Yusuf 'Ali's translation

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The uttering of the satanic verse are the reason Mohammad had to leave mekka.