Gun Control - What's the Problem?

[2aguy]

I have seen these debates for years.....not one of the pro 2nd Amendment people have attacked background checks on any other grounds than that they are not going to stop criminals and mass shooters from getting guns..which is the whole point to doing them...right? So if you are pushing background checks, and you admit that they don't do what the anti gunners say they will do, pointing that out isn't aggressively attacking or criticizing all effort...they are attacking an effort that is in truth just a way to make gun ownership for people who do not commit crimes with guns...simply because those pushing background checks do not like guns.

You just admitted background checks will do almost nothing to stop criminals from getting guns....Can you explain why you support them then? I will support them only if they are immediate, can use a drivers license to get the check, cost nothing ,and leave no permanent record.......that way they do not target law abiding gun owners.

As a gun owner, I would really not like to have to go through a BG check to sell a gun to a friend, i'm actually going through that now. However, if thats what the powers at be decide to do then I will go through the motions and try to support. I won't stomp my feet like a child... same thing happened when seat belts became a law. I know you disagree but I really think that a registration and tracking system is a much better answer as it will help with criminal investigations and finding stolen guns. I don't by the slippery slope argument.
I also don't think everybody should have a gun and those who do should be accountable. The purpose of having a gun is to be able to defend ones self and individuals with intent to offend and misuse a gun shouldn't have one. I've been to enough sporting events and crowded bars that stir up fights and if everybody was armed a few punches easily turn into a few body bags. Thats not the world I want to live in. I hope our gun culture can calm down and replace some of the testosterone with common sense... because frankly, the gun extremists make it an embarrassing group to be a part of.... Similar to the GOP. So to answer your question, I am not a big supporter of BG checks, im more impartial on the matter. They do enough to keep the bad guys from easily purchasing from the stores which makes it harder, yes harder not impossible, to get a gun... harder is a good thing.

I hope our gun culture can calm down and replace some of the testosterone with common sense...

We have 2 distinct gun cultures in the United States….

Normal gun culture that makes up almost all of the owners of the 357 million guns in private hands….

We have 13 million people carrying guns for self defense.

We have Armed Americans using guns 1.5 million times a year, according to bill clinton to stop violent criminal attack and save lives….

And those owners of the 357 million guns….hunt, collect and compete with those guns without committing crimes or shooting anyone.

And in a country of over 320 million people, with over 357 million guns in private hands…we had a total of 505 accidental gun deaths in 2013

So our gun culture is not a problem……..at all.


We also have an inner city criminal culture…they use guns too…and they are the ones shooting each other to the tune of 8,124 people a year. Now the majority of those 8,124 gun murders are criminals murdering each other……and they are the ones that need to be addressed…

Our normal gun culture does not have a testosterone problem…these children of single teenage mothers do…..address them, and leave the normal gun owners alone.

 

[Pogo]

I've never looked into that and frankly, don't give a shit.

The point stands: Slippery Slope fallacy is Slippery Slope fallacy is Slippery Slope fallacy. Doesn't matter one iota how many times you repeat the same thing in hope that somebody will believe it.

Oh? So you admit that you ignore very easily researched history and instead merely parrot what your masters tell you? In other words it is you who are closed minded. Like I stated earlier dude, you talk AT people, you don't discuss anything.

Once more for the slow readers ------- I neither know nor care about that particular info. Get it? My post isn't about that. It's about logic -- which is what about 90% of my posts on this site have always been about.

It's a Slippery Slope Fallacy, that's just a fact and there ain't a damn thing any of you can do about that except to abandon it.

Yes, we KNOW you don't care about facts. Facts DESTROY your slippery slope fallacy argument. Utterly....

Once yet again for the mega-dense: nothing in a fallacy has anything to do with "facts". A fallacy by definition means "facts" are absent.

I didn't post about "facts"; I posted about logic.


Which I just reiterated but you're too dense to read it.

Once again for the propagandist, you are wrong. Historical fact is historical fact. You can't magically disappear it. Thus your argument is specious at best.

And once again MY POINT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY "HISTORICAL FACT". My point had to do with what LOGIC is.

What makes you so dense that you can't figure this out? Is there some magic number of times I have to repeat the same thing until it sinks in?

 

[Pogo]

I've been to enough sporting events and crowded bars that stir up fights and if everybody was armed a few punches easily turn into a few body bags. Thats not the world I want to live in. I hope our gun culture can calm down and replace some of the testosterone with common sense

Exactly, spot on. I've been saying since literally the day I got here (it was the buzz issue that week*) that this is not a legislative issue but a cultural issue, and specifically within that, a masculinity issue. That's where the disease lies and that's where the fix is.

* I joined USMB in early December 2012, just after, and during the discussion of, the Bob Costas Monday Night Football commentary about Jovan Belcher and more broadly about the Gun Culture. Interestingly on every message board, including this one, and on every YouTube entry on that commentary to this day, it's described by its detractors as a "gun control rant" ---- even though Costas never mentioned anything about "gun control" at all. Never said a word about what kind of law exists or should exist; never mentioned government or the Constitution or rights; nothing whatsoever. Yet the gun fetishists are compelled to reframe the issue as some sort of legislation thing, because the prospect of facing the actual cultural problem just scares the shit out of them.

What Costas actually did talk about was Jovan Belcher --- a Kansas City Chiefs player who that week had for whatever reason taken a gun and slaughtered his wife in front of his mother and then drove to his football practice and shot himself to death in front of his coaches -- and about Michael Dunn, who a week earlier had emptied a gun into a neighboring car at a convenience store over loud music, killing one of the occupants. Costas' whole point was how this Gun Culture automatically knee-jerk reacts to every problem by picking up a gun and shooting at it, which is what the whole Gun Culture and masculinity issue IS all about. The wackos who insist that the answer to guns is "more guns" demonstrate this hapless canard every time they speak.

But the Gun Nuts, in similar confirmation of that syndrome, insisted Costas was talking about "gun control" -- which he never mentioned or even hinted at -- because ironically they just can't man up to the actual issue. They insisted all over the blogosphere that Costas should be fired simply for mentioning it.

About a week later that particular buzz faded into the background and was replace by a new one when Adam Lanza went to a school and slaughtered 20 kids and himself. With a gun. Ten days after that William Spengler called in a false fire alarm in New York so that he could ambush firefighters. With a gun.

But you can't suggest we have a Gun Culture, OOooooooh no.

Costas, they insisted, should be "fired". David Gregory on NBC, who raised the gun issue on a Sunday show, should be "arrested" they said. Piers Morgan, who raised the issue on a CNN talk show, should be "deported". Those posts are still on this site.

This is how argument from emotion and fetishism works. Or I should say, fails to work.

 

[2aguy]

I've been to enough sporting events and crowded bars that stir up fights and if everybody was armed a few punches easily turn into a few body bags. Thats not the world I want to live in. I hope our gun culture can calm down and replace some of the testosterone with common sense

Exactly, spot on. I've been saying since literally the day I got here (it was the buzz issue that week*) that this is not a legislative issue but a cultural issue, and specifically within that, a masculinity issue. That's where the disease lies and that's where the fix is.

* I joined USMB in early December 2012, just after, and during the discussion of, the Bob Costas Monday Night Football commentary about Jovan Belcher and more broadly about the Gun Culture. Interestingly on every message board, including this one, and on every YouTube entry on that commentary to this day, it's described by its detractors as a "gun control rant" ---- even though Costas never mentioned anything about "gun control" at all. Never said a word about what kind of law exists or should exist; never mentioned government or the Constitution or rights; nothing whatsoever. Yet the gun fetishists are compelled to reframe the issue as some sort of legislation thing, because the prospect of facing the actual cultural problem just scares the shit out of them.

What Costas actually did talk about was Jovan Belcher --- a Kansas City Chiefs player who that week had for whatever reason taken a gun and slaughtered his wife in front of his mother and then drove to his football practice and shot himself to death in front of his coaches -- and about Michael Dunn, who a week earlier had emptied a gun into a neighboring car at a convenience store over loud music, killing one of the occupants. Costas' whole point was how this Gun Culture automatically knee-jerk reacts to every problem by picking up a gun and shooting at it, which is what the whole Gun Culture and masculinity issue IS all about. The wackos who insist that the answer to guns is "more guns" demonstrate this hapless canard every time they speak.

But the Gun Nuts, in similar confirmation of that syndrome, insisted Costas was talking about "gun control" -- which he never mentioned or even hinted at -- because ironically they just can't man up to the actual issue. They insisted all over the blogosphere that Costas should be fired simply for mentioning it.

About a week later that particular buzz faded into the background and was replace by a new one when Adam Lanza went to a school and slaughtered 20 kids and himself. With a gun. Ten days after that William Spengler called in a false fire alarm in New York so that he could ambush firefighters. With a gun.

But you can't suggest we have a Gun Culture, OOooooooh no.

Costas, they insisted, should be "fired". David Gregory on NBC, who raised the gun issue on a Sunday show, should be "arrested" they said. Piers Morgan, who raised the issue on a CNN talk show, should be "deported". Those posts are still on this site.

This is how argument from emotion and fetishism works. Or I should say, fails to work.

and this is a load of crap.....

we had over 320 million guns in private hands and you had 8,454 gun murders..........

those gun murders were committed primarily by people with long histories of violence and crime. the other 356,991,876 do not hurt anyone with their guns


We have a normal gun culture....one that uses guns for sport, hunting and self defense.......right now they own 357 million guns....


.then we have criminal culture......they use guns to commit crimes......

Based on the tiny minority that makes up the criminal culture you want to target the vast majority of normal gun owners who will never use their guns to commit a crime and they will never use their guns to harm anyone.


you guys hate guns....we get it....you can't see straight when guns come up as a topic...we get that too......you have a phobia.

 

[2aguy]

I've been to enough sporting events and crowded bars that stir up fights and if everybody was armed a few punches easily turn into a few body bags. Thats not the world I want to live in. I hope our gun culture can calm down and replace some of the testosterone with common sense

Exactly, spot on. I've been saying since literally the day I got here (it was the buzz issue that week*) that this is not a legislative issue but a cultural issue, and specifically within that, a masculinity issue. That's where the disease lies and that's where the fix is.

* I joined USMB in early December 2012, just after, and during the discussion of, the Bob Costas Monday Night Football commentary about Jovan Belcher and more broadly about the Gun Culture. Interestingly on every message board, including this one, and on every YouTube entry on that commentary to this day, it's described by its detractors as a "gun control rant" ---- even though Costas never mentioned anything about "gun control" at all. Never said a word about what kind of law exists or should exist; never mentioned government or the Constitution or rights; nothing whatsoever. Yet the gun fetishists are compelled to reframe the issue as some sort of legislation thing, because the prospect of facing the actual cultural problem just scares the shit out of them.

What Costas actually did talk about was Jovan Belcher --- a Kansas City Chiefs player who that week had for whatever reason taken a gun and slaughtered his wife in front of his mother and then drove to his football practice and shot himself to death in front of his coaches -- and about Michael Dunn, who a week earlier had emptied a gun into a neighboring car at a convenience store over loud music, killing one of the occupants. Costas' whole point was how this Gun Culture automatically knee-jerk reacts to every problem by picking up a gun and shooting at it, which is what the whole Gun Culture and masculinity issue IS all about. The wackos who insist that the answer to guns is "more guns" demonstrate this hapless canard every time they speak.

But the Gun Nuts, in similar confirmation of that syndrome, insisted Costas was talking about "gun control" -- which he never mentioned or even hinted at -- because ironically they just can't man up to the actual issue. They insisted all over the blogosphere that Costas should be fired simply for mentioning it.

About a week later that particular buzz faded into the background and was replace by a new one when Adam Lanza went to a school and slaughtered 20 kids and himself. With a gun. Ten days after that William Spengler called in a false fire alarm in New York so that he could ambush firefighters. With a gun.

But you can't suggest we have a Gun Culture, OOooooooh no.

Costas, they insisted, should be "fired". David Gregory on NBC, who raised the gun issue on a Sunday show, should be "arrested" they said. Piers Morgan, who raised the issue on a CNN talk show, should be "deported". Those posts are still on this site.

This is how argument from emotion and fetishism works. Or I should say, fails to work.

if they wanted Costas fired it was because they tune into Football to watch football, not to be preached at by a guy sitting in a well guarded television studio who can hire heavily armed security if he is ever threatened.....


.they want to watch football...not be preached at by a pompous jerk..........whose job entails creating and protecting the very people he was complaining about.


and on top of that....normal gun owners use their guns to stop crime...1.5 million times a year according to Bill Clinton.........and the criminal culture....used guns illegally to murder 8,454 people, most of whom were other criminals.


so sell you gun culture crap to people who don't follow the issue since they are the only ones who don't understand the truth of the issue.

 

[Slade3200]

So our gun culture is not a problem……..at all.

Our normal gun culture does not have a testosterone problem…these children of single teenage mothers do…..address them, and leave the normal gun owners alone.

Our gun culture is an embarrassment and the attitude and rederic from many members just feeds the divide and contributes to creating way more issues than already exist.

If you really think that arming everybody is going to decrease the amount of gun related accidents, crimes and deaths then you should check that Koolaid you are drinking. I don't care about some study you found in Virginia, I've seen skewed numbers and reports from both sides and they don't mean much... Just use your brain and common sense, if more people have easy access to guns then it will create more opportunity for bad shit to happen. This isn't an argument for confiscation or banning guns but it does justify the need to be smart and careful about who we arm and how we tackle prevention and abuse.

Take yourself out of the equation and imagine it is your daughter, going off to college... Do you really want her in a community or environment where everybody is carrying a firearm? You'd feel safe knowing she was at a crowded bar with a bunch of frat boys with loaded guns? Give her a gun for protection, thats fine but really think about the environment you want to promote and create for her and future generations.

 

[2aguy]

I've been to enough sporting events and crowded bars that stir up fights and if everybody was armed a few punches easily turn into a few body bags. Thats not the world I want to live in. I hope our gun culture can calm down and replace some of the testosterone with common sense

Exactly, spot on. I've been saying since literally the day I got here (it was the buzz issue that week*) that this is not a legislative issue but a cultural issue, and specifically within that, a masculinity issue. That's where the disease lies and that's where the fix is.

* I joined USMB in early December 2012, just after, and during the discussion of, the Bob Costas Monday Night Football commentary about Jovan Belcher and more broadly about the Gun Culture. Interestingly on every message board, including this one, and on every YouTube entry on that commentary to this day, it's described by its detractors as a "gun control rant" ---- even though Costas never mentioned anything about "gun control" at all. Never said a word about what kind of law exists or should exist; never mentioned government or the Constitution or rights; nothing whatsoever. Yet the gun fetishists are compelled to reframe the issue as some sort of legislation thing, because the prospect of facing the actual cultural problem just scares the shit out of them.

What Costas actually did talk about was Jovan Belcher --- a Kansas City Chiefs player who that week had for whatever reason taken a gun and slaughtered his wife in front of his mother and then drove to his football practice and shot himself to death in front of his coaches -- and about Michael Dunn, who a week earlier had emptied a gun into a neighboring car at a convenience store over loud music, killing one of the occupants. Costas' whole point was how this Gun Culture automatically knee-jerk reacts to every problem by picking up a gun and shooting at it, which is what the whole Gun Culture and masculinity issue IS all about. The wackos who insist that the answer to guns is "more guns" demonstrate this hapless canard every time they speak.

But the Gun Nuts, in similar confirmation of that syndrome, insisted Costas was talking about "gun control" -- which he never mentioned or even hinted at -- because ironically they just can't man up to the actual issue. They insisted all over the blogosphere that Costas should be fired simply for mentioning it.

About a week later that particular buzz faded into the background and was replace by a new one when Adam Lanza went to a school and slaughtered 20 kids and himself. With a gun. Ten days after that William Spengler called in a false fire alarm in New York so that he could ambush firefighters. With a gun.

But you can't suggest we have a Gun Culture, OOooooooh no.

Costas, they insisted, should be "fired". David Gregory on NBC, who raised the gun issue on a Sunday show, should be "arrested" they said. Piers Morgan, who raised the issue on a CNN talk show, should be "deported". Those posts are still on this site.

This is how argument from emotion and fetishism works. Or I should say, fails to work.

What you have in your post....is an example of thug culture.....professional athletes who were groomed to be aggressive, and had all responsibility for their actions removed because they could play a game and make lots of money for people like bob costas.....their entire lives they did what they wanted, and were never called to account...because of people like bob costas who profited from their skill at football.....so after growing up as thugs.....one day they go so far over the top that they kill people.....and then their coaches, the league and their teams can't protect them or hide their victims anymore...

Do you think that the guy who murdered his wife and then took his own life just did that on that day on the spur of the moment? Really? This guy had been a thug his entire life.......and then it went too far....

It isn't gun culture...it is professional athlete thug culture where these guys were groomed from an early age to be violent and aggressive and were protected from the consequences their entire athletic career...

Blame bob costas.....not guns

 

[2aguy]

So our gun culture is not a problem……..at all.

Our normal gun culture does not have a testosterone problem…these children of single teenage mothers do…..address them, and leave the normal gun owners alone.

Our gun culture is an embarrassment and the attitude and rederic from many members just feeds the divide and contributes to creating way more issues than already exist.

If you really think that arming everybody is going to decrease the amount of gun related accidents, crimes and deaths then you should check that Koolaid you are drinking. I don't care about some study you found in Virginia, I've seen skewed numbers and reports from both sides and they don't mean much... Just use your brain and common sense, if more people have easy access to guns then it will create more opportunity for bad shit to happen. This isn't an argument for confiscation or banning guns but it does justify the need to be smart and careful about who we arm and how we tackle prevention and abuse.

Take yourself out of the equation and imagine it is your daughter, going off to college... Do you really want her in a community or environment where everybody is carrying a firearm? You'd feel safe knowing she was at a crowded bar with a bunch of frat boys with loaded guns? Give her a gun for protection, thats fine but really think about the environment you want to promote and create for her and future generations.

Do you understand that more Americans now own guns than ever before and our gun accident rate went down, not up? Do you realize that? Do you realize the fact, the truth and the reality, that as concealed carry and gun ownership increased the gun murder rate went down? Check out FBI table 8.....you can see for yourself....

You are just wrong......

Normal people owning and carrying guns are not a problem...at all...and the myth that they are a problem is just that...a myth......

It isn't a study....it is the truth and the reality....they allowed concealed carry in bars in Virginia and the violence level dropped....that is the truth, the fact and the reality.......

 

[2aguy]

So our gun culture is not a problem……..at all.

Our normal gun culture does not have a testosterone problem…these children of single teenage mothers do…..address them, and leave the normal gun owners alone.

Our gun culture is an embarrassment and the attitude and rederic from many members just feeds the divide and contributes to creating way more issues than already exist.

If you really think that arming everybody is going to decrease the amount of gun related accidents, crimes and deaths then you should check that Koolaid you are drinking. I don't care about some study you found in Virginia, I've seen skewed numbers and reports from both sides and they don't mean much... Just use your brain and common sense, if more people have easy access to guns then it will create more opportunity for bad shit to happen. This isn't an argument for confiscation or banning guns but it does justify the need to be smart and careful about who we arm and how we tackle prevention and abuse.

Take yourself out of the equation and imagine it is your daughter, going off to college... Do you really want her in a community or environment where everybody is carrying a firearm? You'd feel safe knowing she was at a crowded bar with a bunch of frat boys with loaded guns? Give her a gun for protection, thats fine but really think about the environment you want to promote and create for her and future generations.

Take yourself out of the equation and imagine it is your daughter, going off to college... Do you really want her in a community or environment where everybody is carrying a firearm?

Yes. I do...she will be safer.......normal gun owners, carrying guns for self defense do not pose any harm to her. The criminals already carry and use guns to attack normal people.....the presence of guns in the hands of good people keeps people safe.....the truth, the fact and the reality that each time you guys claimed allowing normal people to carry and own guns would turn into a violent bloodbath...every single time and in every single state that wanted concealed carry, that is what you guys always said...and you know what...you were all wrong....the gun violence rate went down, not up....

You'd feel safe knowing she was at a crowded bar with a bunch of frat boys with loaded guns

I wouldn't feel she was safe with Frat boys anyway....more for them drugging her drink than anything to do with guns....and why do you think that if those frat boys were going to be careless with guns that they wouldn't already be carrying guns in the first place.

Normal people carrying guns are not a problem and make their environment safer.........gun free zones for good people, which you find in all these major democrat cities...makes them less safe, not more safe....because only the criminals have access to guns.

 

[2aguy]

So our gun culture is not a problem……..at all.

Our normal gun culture does not have a testosterone problem…these children of single teenage mothers do…..address them, and leave the normal gun owners alone.

Our gun culture is an embarrassment and the attitude and rederic from many members just feeds the divide and contributes to creating way more issues than already exist.

If you really think that arming everybody is going to decrease the amount of gun related accidents, crimes and deaths then you should check that Koolaid you are drinking. I don't care about some study you found in Virginia, I've seen skewed numbers and reports from both sides and they don't mean much... Just use your brain and common sense, if more people have easy access to guns then it will create more opportunity for bad shit to happen. This isn't an argument for confiscation or banning guns but it does justify the need to be smart and careful about who we arm and how we tackle prevention and abuse.

Take yourself out of the equation and imagine it is your daughter, going off to college... Do you really want her in a community or environment where everybody is carrying a firearm? You'd feel safe knowing she was at a crowded bar with a bunch of frat boys with loaded guns? Give her a gun for protection, thats fine but really think about the environment you want to promote and create for her and future generations.

Our gun culture is an embarrassment

Wrong.....our gun culture is a thing we should be proud of.....357 million guns in private hands, guns used responibly every day with only 505 accidental deaths...with all of those guns....do you think about those actual numbers? 505 people out of over 320 million people in the country...that is an amazing number for how small it is in the light of 357 million guns in private hands.


What we need to be embarrassed about....our prosecutors and judges....they are the ones who allow criminal culture in America to be out of control because they refuse to deal with gun criminals......

Our gun culture isn't a problem. Our criminal culture is the problem. American criminals murder more people....find out why they murder more often and then address that problem. Europeans, Australians and Japanese can get guns just as easily as our criminals can....they just don't murder people as often.....that is the difference, not the guns.

 

[2aguy]

So our gun culture is not a problem……..at all.

Our normal gun culture does not have a testosterone problem…these children of single teenage mothers do…..address them, and leave the normal gun owners alone.

Our gun culture is an embarrassment and the attitude and rederic from many members just feeds the divide and contributes to creating way more issues than already exist.

If you really think that arming everybody is going to decrease the amount of gun related accidents, crimes and deaths then you should check that Koolaid you are drinking. I don't care about some study you found in Virginia, I've seen skewed numbers and reports from both sides and they don't mean much... Just use your brain and common sense, if more people have easy access to guns then it will create more opportunity for bad shit to happen. This isn't an argument for confiscation or banning guns but it does justify the need to be smart and careful about who we arm and how we tackle prevention and abuse.

Take yourself out of the equation and imagine it is your daughter, going off to college... Do you really want her in a community or environment where everybody is carrying a firearm? You'd feel safe knowing she was at a crowded bar with a bunch of frat boys with loaded guns? Give her a gun for protection, thats fine but really think about the environment you want to promote and create for her and future generations.

I don't care about some study you found in Virginia, I've seen skewed numbers and reports from both sides and they don't mean much

They aren't skewed numbers.....they are numbers taken from the CDC and the FBI......those are where I get my numbers from........

 

[2aguy]

I've been to enough sporting events and crowded bars that stir up fights and if everybody was armed a few punches easily turn into a few body bags. Thats not the world I want to live in. I hope our gun culture can calm down and replace some of the testosterone with common sense

Exactly, spot on. I've been saying since literally the day I got here (it was the buzz issue that week*) that this is not a legislative issue but a cultural issue, and specifically within that, a masculinity issue. That's where the disease lies and that's where the fix is.

* I joined USMB in early December 2012, just after, and during the discussion of, the Bob Costas Monday Night Football commentary about Jovan Belcher and more broadly about the Gun Culture. Interestingly on every message board, including this one, and on every YouTube entry on that commentary to this day, it's described by its detractors as a "gun control rant" ---- even though Costas never mentioned anything about "gun control" at all. Never said a word about what kind of law exists or should exist; never mentioned government or the Constitution or rights; nothing whatsoever. Yet the gun fetishists are compelled to reframe the issue as some sort of legislation thing, because the prospect of facing the actual cultural problem just scares the shit out of them.

What Costas actually did talk about was Jovan Belcher --- a Kansas City Chiefs player who that week had for whatever reason taken a gun and slaughtered his wife in front of his mother and then drove to his football practice and shot himself to death in front of his coaches -- and about Michael Dunn, who a week earlier had emptied a gun into a neighboring car at a convenience store over loud music, killing one of the occupants. Costas' whole point was how this Gun Culture automatically knee-jerk reacts to every problem by picking up a gun and shooting at it, which is what the whole Gun Culture and masculinity issue IS all about. The wackos who insist that the answer to guns is "more guns" demonstrate this hapless canard every time they speak.

But the Gun Nuts, in similar confirmation of that syndrome, insisted Costas was talking about "gun control" -- which he never mentioned or even hinted at -- because ironically they just can't man up to the actual issue. They insisted all over the blogosphere that Costas should be fired simply for mentioning it.

About a week later that particular buzz faded into the background and was replace by a new one when Adam Lanza went to a school and slaughtered 20 kids and himself. With a gun. Ten days after that William Spengler called in a false fire alarm in New York so that he could ambush firefighters. With a gun.

But you can't suggest we have a Gun Culture, OOooooooh no.

Costas, they insisted, should be "fired". David Gregory on NBC, who raised the gun issue on a Sunday show, should be "arrested" they said. Piers Morgan, who raised the issue on a CNN talk show, should be "deported". Those posts are still on this site.

This is how argument from emotion and fetishism works. Or I should say, fails to work.

And of course...the real story about Jovan Belcher....and it isn't the gun....

Guns, Injuries, Macho Culture Didn't Kill Jovan Belcher's Girlfriend. Jovan Belcher Did.

Were you disgusted by news coverage immediately following the death of Jovan Belcher?
Belcher was a linebacker for the Kansas City Chiefs who shot his girlfriend - and mother of his three-month-old daughter - dead after an argument. Belcher then drove to the Arrowhead Stadium practice facility to profusely thank general manager Scott Pioli and head coach Romeo Crennel for their roles in his career. He reportedly said, "I love you, bro" before shooting himself.
Fans and sportswriters tried to make sense of the Belcher violence, and with the suicide of San Diego Charger Junior Seau earlier this year in mind, they grasped at common straws that might tie the two acts together. But what separates Belcher from Seau - and other depressed athletes who’ve struggled with the fallout from a career of hard hits and head injuries - is that Junior’s plight didn’t end in the barbaric murder of his girlfriend and the orphaning of a three-month-old baby.

 

[2aguy]

I've been to enough sporting events and crowded bars that stir up fights and if everybody was armed a few punches easily turn into a few body bags. Thats not the world I want to live in. I hope our gun culture can calm down and replace some of the testosterone with common sense

Exactly, spot on. I've been saying since literally the day I got here (it was the buzz issue that week*) that this is not a legislative issue but a cultural issue, and specifically within that, a masculinity issue. That's where the disease lies and that's where the fix is.

* I joined USMB in early December 2012, just after, and during the discussion of, the Bob Costas Monday Night Football commentary about Jovan Belcher and more broadly about the Gun Culture. Interestingly on every message board, including this one, and on every YouTube entry on that commentary to this day, it's described by its detractors as a "gun control rant" ---- even though Costas never mentioned anything about "gun control" at all. Never said a word about what kind of law exists or should exist; never mentioned government or the Constitution or rights; nothing whatsoever. Yet the gun fetishists are compelled to reframe the issue as some sort of legislation thing, because the prospect of facing the actual cultural problem just scares the shit out of them.

What Costas actually did talk about was Jovan Belcher --- a Kansas City Chiefs player who that week had for whatever reason taken a gun and slaughtered his wife in front of his mother and then drove to his football practice and shot himself to death in front of his coaches -- and about Michael Dunn, who a week earlier had emptied a gun into a neighboring car at a convenience store over loud music, killing one of the occupants. Costas' whole point was how this Gun Culture automatically knee-jerk reacts to every problem by picking up a gun and shooting at it, which is what the whole Gun Culture and masculinity issue IS all about. The wackos who insist that the answer to guns is "more guns" demonstrate this hapless canard every time they speak.

But the Gun Nuts, in similar confirmation of that syndrome, insisted Costas was talking about "gun control" -- which he never mentioned or even hinted at -- because ironically they just can't man up to the actual issue. They insisted all over the blogosphere that Costas should be fired simply for mentioning it.

About a week later that particular buzz faded into the background and was replace by a new one when Adam Lanza went to a school and slaughtered 20 kids and himself. With a gun. Ten days after that William Spengler called in a false fire alarm in New York so that he could ambush firefighters. With a gun.

But you can't suggest we have a Gun Culture, OOooooooh no.

Costas, they insisted, should be "fired". David Gregory on NBC, who raised the gun issue on a Sunday show, should be "arrested" they said. Piers Morgan, who raised the issue on a CNN talk show, should be "deported". Those posts are still on this site.

This is how argument from emotion and fetishism works. Or I should say, fails to work.

And of course, as I have posted those criminals who actually murder people ...have long histories of violence and police contact....just like this thug did......

Angry about woman, Jovan Belcher punched out window, gashed hand in 2006 UMaine incident

During his four years as a student at UMaine, Belcher was confronted by police about two on-campus incidents involving a woman. No criminal charges were filed in either incident.
On April 1, 2006, Belcher suffered a serious cut on his hand when the then-freshman punched out a window in a ground-floor door at Androscoggin Hall on the UMaine campus, according to university police Sgt. Scott Curtis, who reported, “I was told that Belcher was upset over a girl.”
Ten months later, Belcher was the subject of a dormitory noise complaint. According to a police report, a student in Gannett Hall called police about the raised voices of Belcher and his girlfriend as they had “a discussion outside his room.”
UMaine officials on Monday released four police reports about Belcher, saying three of them were not found over the weekend because his name was spelled wrong and the wrong birthdate appeared in the incident reports.
One report — a request by Belcher to be let into a building — was found during an inquiry Saturday evening by the Bangor Daily News.
The 2006 window-punching incident resulted in what the police report termed “a possible severed thumb and lacerations to the wrist.”
“There was a lot of blood outside of the west entrance and in the lobby,” Sgt. Curtis wrote in the report.
“I noticed the window to the interior, ground floor door, to the center stairwell, broken out,” he continues.
Belcher was referred to Judicial Affairs and had to pay restitution, which was estimated at $200. Details about any university punishment levied against him are protected by the federal Family Education Rights and Privacy Act, according to Dr. Robert Dana, UMaine’s vice president for student affairs and dean of students.
“Generally, in a case like that, the person would have an intervention with a staff member about anger management or anything else relevant to the situation,” he said.
“The person’s status could range all the way from a warning all the way up to dismissal,” added Dana, who termed the window-punching incident as “down at the lower end of the spectrum.”
One of Belcher’s former teammates, Mike Brusko, also played for the Black Bears from 2005-2008.
“I have at least two or three other friends who have done exactly the same thing,” said a reluctant Brusko, who is still reeling from the news about Belcher. “I know all of them and I would only have ever attributed that to a bad decision that was influenced by alcohol.”
Brusko said the incident stemmed from what he termed “immaturity and some intoxication.” Looking back, he doesn’t view it as any kind of a warning sign.


See...the problem isn't a "gun culture." The problem is that this guy had his aggressive, woman hating behavior reinforced year after year because he could play football and make people like bob costas money.....

The problem wasn't the gun...the problem was the thug culture supported by professional sports......

But let's not deal with the real problem...violent thugs...lets focus on the 356,999,999 guns that were not used by a thug to murder his girlfriend and commit suicide....instead of helping this guy when he was a young man......the sports industrial complex...of which bob costas is a part, fed his anger and aggressiveness for their own ends....

 

[Pogo]

I've been to enough sporting events and crowded bars that stir up fights and if everybody was armed a few punches easily turn into a few body bags. Thats not the world I want to live in. I hope our gun culture can calm down and replace some of the testosterone with common sense

Exactly, spot on. I've been saying since literally the day I got here (it was the buzz issue that week*) that this is not a legislative issue but a cultural issue, and specifically within that, a masculinity issue. That's where the disease lies and that's where the fix is.

* I joined USMB in early December 2012, just after, and during the discussion of, the Bob Costas Monday Night Football commentary about Jovan Belcher and more broadly about the Gun Culture. Interestingly on every message board, including this one, and on every YouTube entry on that commentary to this day, it's described by its detractors as a "gun control rant" ---- even though Costas never mentioned anything about "gun control" at all. Never said a word about what kind of law exists or should exist; never mentioned government or the Constitution or rights; nothing whatsoever. Yet the gun fetishists are compelled to reframe the issue as some sort of legislation thing, because the prospect of facing the actual cultural problem just scares the shit out of them.

What Costas actually did talk about was Jovan Belcher --- a Kansas City Chiefs player who that week had for whatever reason taken a gun and slaughtered his wife in front of his mother and then drove to his football practice and shot himself to death in front of his coaches -- and about Michael Dunn, who a week earlier had emptied a gun into a neighboring car at a convenience store over loud music, killing one of the occupants. Costas' whole point was how this Gun Culture automatically knee-jerk reacts to every problem by picking up a gun and shooting at it, which is what the whole Gun Culture and masculinity issue IS all about. The wackos who insist that the answer to guns is "more guns" demonstrate this hapless canard every time they speak.

But the Gun Nuts, in similar confirmation of that syndrome, insisted Costas was talking about "gun control" -- which he never mentioned or even hinted at -- because ironically they just can't man up to the actual issue. They insisted all over the blogosphere that Costas should be fired simply for mentioning it.

About a week later that particular buzz faded into the background and was replace by a new one when Adam Lanza went to a school and slaughtered 20 kids and himself. With a gun. Ten days after that William Spengler called in a false fire alarm in New York so that he could ambush firefighters. With a gun.

But you can't suggest we have a Gun Culture, OOooooooh no.

Costas, they insisted, should be "fired". David Gregory on NBC, who raised the gun issue on a Sunday show, should be "arrested" they said. Piers Morgan, who raised the issue on a CNN talk show, should be "deported". Those posts are still on this site.

This is how argument from emotion and fetishism works. Or I should say, fails to work.

and this is a load of crap......

Two questions then.

One, what part of it is inaccurate?
And two, if this was a "load of crap", how come you came back six minutes later to defend those posters I just described? It can't be a "load of crap" if you're bringing in all kinds of rationalization to fire Bob Costas, because that means you're defending the existence of what I just said.

When you find yourself in a hole, first thing to do is quit diggin'.

 

[Pogo]

What you have in your post....is an example of thug culture.....professional athletes who were groomed to be aggressive, and had all responsibility for their actions removed because they could play a game and make lots of money

Ummm.... no. The guy in Jacksonville who shot up a car for playing loud music wasn't a professional athlete. Adam Lanza was not a professional athlete. William Spengler was not a professional athlete. Only Jovan Belcher was.

So they did not have that in common. What did they have in common?
Guns. And being immersed in the Gun Culture, and being male. It's a deadly cocktail.

Do you think that the guy who murdered his wife and then took his own life just did that on that day on the spur of the moment?

Had he ever murdered his wife and committed suicide before?

Blame bob costas.....not guns

For -------------------------- what? Telling the truth?


See what I mean? You just demonstrated exactly what I was talking about.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So our gun culture is not a problem……..at all.

Our normal gun culture does not have a testosterone problem…these children of single teenage mothers do…..address them, and leave the normal gun owners alone.

Our gun culture is an embarrassment and the attitude and rederic from many members just feeds the divide and contributes to creating way more issues than already exist.

If you really think that arming everybody is going to decrease the amount of gun related accidents, crimes and deaths then you should check that Koolaid you are drinking. I don't care about some study you found in Virginia, I've seen skewed numbers and reports from both sides and they don't mean much... Just use your brain and common sense, if more people have easy access to guns then it will create more opportunity for bad shit to happen. This isn't an argument for confiscation or banning guns but it does justify the need to be smart and careful about who we arm and how we tackle prevention and abuse.

Take yourself out of the equation and imagine it is your daughter, going off to college... Do you really want her in a community or environment where everybody is carrying a firearm? You'd feel safe knowing she was at a crowded bar with a bunch of frat boys with loaded guns? Give her a gun for protection, thats fine but really think about the environment you want to promote and create for her and future generations.

In many states it's illegal to have a gun in a bar. In our state, it's allowed. But no matter what state you are talking about, you can't consume alcohol if you are carrying a weapon.

Guns being allowed on a college campus doesn't mean that everybody is carrying a gun no different than everybody carrying a gun in a gun permissible state. What it means is that there is an uncertainty if people are armed or not. That uncertainty is what keeps people safe because a potential attacker doesn't know who can protect themselves or not. They would sooner go to someplace where they know nobody is protected.

So yes, I know I would feel my daughter is safer in a gun permissible area. When you apply for a CCW, you are checked out top to bottom for any criminal record before you are issued a license. A person that's never been in any legal trouble in their lives demonstrates personal responsibility right there.

 

[2aguy]

What you have in your post....is an example of thug culture.....professional athletes who were groomed to be aggressive, and had all responsibility for their actions removed because they could play a game and make lots of money

Ummm.... no. The guy in Jacksonville who shot up a car for playing loud music wasn't a professional athlete. Adam Lanza was not a professional athlete. William Spengler was not a professional athlete. Only Jovan Belcher was.

So they did not have that in common. What did they have in common?
Guns. And being immersed in the Gun Culture, and being male. It's a deadly cocktail.

Do you think that the guy who murdered his wife and then took his own life just did that on that day on the spur of the moment?

Had he ever murdered his wife and committed suicide before?

Blame bob costas.....not guns

For -------------------------- what? Telling the truth?


See what I mean? You just demonstrated exactly what I was talking about.

Wrong....the guy who shot up the firemen had just gotten out of prison....on a previous murder sentence.....forget that did you? and Sandy hook.....mentally ill.......not a normal gun owner...his mother, the other gun owner in the home didn't shoot anyone....

you are wrong on all counts.

 

[2aguy]

What you have in your post....is an example of thug culture.....professional athletes who were groomed to be aggressive, and had all responsibility for their actions removed because they could play a game and make lots of money

Ummm.... no. The guy in Jacksonville who shot up a car for playing loud music wasn't a professional athlete. Adam Lanza was not a professional athlete. William Spengler was not a professional athlete. Only Jovan Belcher was.

So they did not have that in common. What did they have in common?
Guns. And being immersed in the Gun Culture, and being male. It's a deadly cocktail.

Do you think that the guy who murdered his wife and then took his own life just did that on that day on the spur of the moment?

Had he ever murdered his wife and committed suicide before?

Blame bob costas.....not guns

For -------------------------- what? Telling the truth?


See what I mean? You just demonstrated exactly what I was talking about.

what did they actually have in common....Spengler had been in prison 17 years...for murder....making you wrong.....ditto the violent history of Johan...and the sandy hook shooter was mentally ill.......

not one of them was a normal gun owner...they were nowhere near normal gun culture...and as the research I have posted showed...they all had violent histories or mental illness....not one of them was John Q. citizen who all of a sudden murdered someone because they owned a gun...they killed because they were by nature violent killers.....


2012 Webster, New York shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Police identified the gunman as 62-year-old local resident William H. Spengler, Jr.[7] Spengler previously spent 17 years in prison for murdering his 92-year-old grandmother with a hammer in 1980.[6][8][11] He had not attracted the attention of police since then. William Spengler "could not stand" his sister Cheryl, according to a friend, Roger Vercruysse. Spengler's mother Arline, to whom he was said to have been close, died two months earlier.[6]

 

[2aguy]

What you have in your post....is an example of thug culture.....professional athletes who were groomed to be aggressive, and had all responsibility for their actions removed because they could play a game and make lots of money

Ummm.... no. The guy in Jacksonville who shot up a car for playing loud music wasn't a professional athlete. Adam Lanza was not a professional athlete. William Spengler was not a professional athlete. Only Jovan Belcher was.

So they did not have that in common. What did they have in common?
Guns. And being immersed in the Gun Culture, and being male. It's a deadly cocktail.

Do you think that the guy who murdered his wife and then took his own life just did that on that day on the spur of the moment?

Had he ever murdered his wife and committed suicide before?

Blame bob costas.....not guns

For -------------------------- what? Telling the truth?


See what I mean? You just demonstrated exactly what I was talking about.

So...to prove your gun culture point you bring up a bunch of people who used guns to shoot things and people.....and fail to mention that all of them either had mental illness, the Sandy Hook shooter, or long histories of violence and criminal behavior....the one you said wasn't a professional athlete......murdered his grand mother with a hammer and was in prison for 17 years......and was released.....then he goes and murders fire fighters with a rifle...who saw that coming?

Completely abnormal people...every single one of your examples...and you use them to smear normal gun owners who don't harm others with their guns and whose "gun culture" is sport, hunting and self defense.........

 

[Pogo]

what did they actually have in common....Spengler had been in prison 17 years...for murder....making you wrong.....ditto the violent history of Johan...and the sandy hook shooter was mentally ill.......

Neither Adam Lanza nor Michael Dunn had any such violent history, so no -- they did not have that in common. You're wrong. What they DID have in common was guns. Guns and being a male member of American Gun Culture. All four of them. See, that's what "they all had in common" MEANS.

But I already said this. And no, it's not going away.

not one of them was a normal gun owner...they were nowhere near normal gun culture...and as the research I have posted showed...they all had violent histories or mental illness....not one of them was John Q. citizen who all of a sudden murdered someone because they owned a gun...they killed because they were by nature violent killers.....

They're Americans. Therefore they're part of the American culture --- which is, among many other things, a gun worship culture. QEfuckingD.

2012 Webster, New York shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Police identified the gunman as 62-year-old local resident William H. Spengler, Jr.[7] Spengler previously spent 17 years in prison for murdering his 92-year-old grandmother with a hammer in 1980.[6][8][11] He had not attracted the attention of police since then. William Spengler "could not stand" his sister Cheryl, according to a friend, Roger Vercruysse. Spengler's mother Arline, to whom he was said to have been close, died two months earlier.[6]

Yeah ummmm.... I don't need a Wiki on William Spengler. I'm the one who brought him in here.