Greece tells banking cartel STICK IT

[Synthaholic]

If they ditch the Euro and start printing out Drachma.... they can hand out all the money they want.... of course in the long run, the hyper inflation of a worthless currency will have the Zimbabwe effect.

When I spent time in Türkiye in the early 1990s they also had hyper inflation. They came out of it fine.

 

[montelatici]

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of madness. More austerity will result in continued economic recession (depression) and regardless of reforms Greece will owe more than than it does today. This is only a ploy to continue paying the creditors at the expense of European taxpayers.

Until the Greek debt is forgiven either by the ECB et al, or the Greeks by defaulting and returning to a national currency, will there be a solution. The Greeks cannot pay the interest due on their debt, much less the principle.

 

[Steinlight]

Yes it is, you said raise taxes on full time workers. That is the middle class. The Middle Class isn't comprised of part time workers. Why should the middle class have to pay for your run away spending?

Another wingnut with reading comprehension issues.

I didn't say raise taxes on workers, I said put people to work so that you can then collect income taxes from them.

No, you are just an idiot that keep your incoherent and dumb worldview straight.

Through the taxes raised from the workers who now have full-time jobs. In the case of new roads, through tolls. In the case of a new airport, fees on airlines and passengers.

But please, tell us more how all full time workers should pay more taxes to pay for your cradle to grave welfare state .

 

[Steinlight]

25% unemployment

Uh...that means 75% employment.

That means depression.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes and no.

Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no. But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession. Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise. If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.

It would pump up tourism.... in theory. Yes. Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.

But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma. So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut. If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.

The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though. If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell.... cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".

My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....

It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.

Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.

No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.

The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.

The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.

For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........ the same EU they just defaulted on..... Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well? Not a chance.

Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece? Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?

Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece? Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?

And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.

View attachment 44399
This is Greece. Empty shelves.

Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ

Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades. Now maybe it will....

But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....

The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase. It's unavoidable.

As for African nations.... Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly. If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan..... I can live like a King.... for awhile.

Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.

Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well.... Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.

first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price. The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.

Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.

Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.

I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way. But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.

The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.

Making me work to prove my case eh? Very well.

What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission

Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​

The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU. The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.

If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.

Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU. While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.

The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust. Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU. Possible... yes. Likely? No.

Corrupt Right wing? Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean. From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades. New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.

And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.

There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending. If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements. That's how lending works.

If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great. Don't borrow the money.

The IMF is not dumb for lending. They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back. That's why everyone hates the IMF. They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.

The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly. The EU taxpayers are screwed.

In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)

PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.

You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.

As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down. If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

 

[Andylusion]

I don't think we can tell if it's a good deal or a bad deal or, more importantly, if it actually accomplishes anything good. On the face of it, I'd say it does nothing to actually cure the Greek problem.

Possible scenarios for Greece Econbrowser

"It’s very clear that two things have to happen from here. First, Greece needs relief from its mountain of debt, and second, the country needs to find a way to become more competitive economically.

The traditional way these goals would be achieved is first, creditors would accept substantial haircuts and restructuring of the outstanding debt, and second, a big currency depreciation would give Greek exports a competitive international advantage to get the economy growing again without new borrowing.

The main complication preventing these steps in the current situation is Greece’s participation in the euro system. On the first issue, this meant that European governments, banks and the ECB extended substantial loans on the (mis)understanding that Greece’s membership in the European union meant default was impossible. On the second issue, devaluation would seem not to be an option because Greece does not have control over the value of its currency."
................

On the face if it, simply raising taxes and cutting pensions not only does nothing, but in terms of how monetarists view ending recessions, it's typical Merkel azz-backwards. But then there were these quotes.

Greece Submits Reform Proposals To European Creditors

"Many of the proposed reforms were harsher than those roundly rejected by the Greek public in a bailout referendum last Sunday. But the government said, in return, it "would seek a commitment from creditors to negotiate ... further measures to restructure the long-term debt

"Earlier Thursday, Donald Tusk of Poland, who chairs the EU summits, indicated that European officials would make an effort to address Greece's key request for debt relief.

"The realistic proposal from Greece will have to be matched by an equally realistic proposal on debt sustainability from the creditors. Only then will we have a win-win situation," Tusk said."
...................
So, if Europe is finally accepting the fact that there has to be a "haircut," maybe that's a forward step. But, there's still the Euro problem. Basically, the "Greek euro" has to be worth less than a "EU euro." That's the only way to get Greek exports cheaper for trading partners, and the only way to get "EU euros" to visit Greece and buy stuff.

The normal way to approach a debacle like Greece has is: a. a haircut, b. some kind of currency devaluation and c. a commitment to not just cut govt spending but more importantly to continually hold debt growth at less a % of gnp and gnp growth.

We may have a and c, but I'm not sure about b.

I'm always a bit skeptical of the idea that devaluing the currency, is a way to boast economic growth.

But in the effect of devaluing the currency, you drive up prices in your domestic economy. That makes everyone poorer.

How is making everyone intentionally poorer, going to boast the economy? How does inflation help the economy?

By the logic, Zimbabwe should be the largest goods exporter in all of Africa.

After all, one US Dollar is worth several Trillion Zim Dollars. So in theory, Zimbabwe goods should be the cheapest goods on the market.

Of course, in reality, as the value of the Zimbabwe Dollar drops, goods can't be produced at the previous value, because no one is going to work for $10/hr, when $10 is only worth 1 cent of value.

So the employers have to jack up the wages, to keep people working. Which jacks up the price, which defeats whatever benefit devaluing the currency has. Not to mention that Greek business is importing the raw materials to make the products they are exporting.

So what difference does it make that one Euro is worth two Drachma, if the company making the product has to spend two Drachma to buy one Euro worth of raw materials?

Honestly, the whole "devalue to increase exports" sounds like voodoo economics.

The only way you can increase exports via devaluing the currency, is if people's wages stay the same in absolute terms, while their wages are falling from inflation.

Here's a thought... just allow wages to fall to start with? Cut the minimum wage. It would have the exact same effect, without the drama and crash of ditching the Euro.

 

[dcraelin]

My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....

It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.

Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.

No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.

The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.

The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.

For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........ the same EU they just defaulted on..... Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well? Not a chance.

Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece? Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?

Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece? Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?

And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.

View attachment 44399
This is Greece. Empty shelves.

Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ

Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades. Now maybe it will....

But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....

The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase. It's unavoidable.

As for African nations.... Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly. If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan..... I can live like a King.... for awhile.

Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.

Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well.... Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.

first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price. The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.

Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.

Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.

I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way. But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.

The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.

Making me work to prove my case eh? Very well.

What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission

Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​

The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU. The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.

If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.

Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU. While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.

The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust. Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU. Possible... yes. Likely? No.

Corrupt Right wing? Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean. From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades. New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.

And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.

There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending. If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements. That's how lending works.

If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great. Don't borrow the money.

The IMF is not dumb for lending. They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back. That's why everyone hates the IMF. They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.

The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly. The EU taxpayers are screwed.

In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)

PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.

You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.

As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down. If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

 

[SAYIT]

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

 

[dcraelin]

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

 

[SAYIT]

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

 

[dcraelin]

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

YOU saying they didnt have undue influence doesnt make THAT so. I would say the former employee saying it has a lot of weight.

I have just as much of an idea as you........."the child like belief that all would be forgiven"...somehow my conjecture seems a little more realistic than your pompous braying.

 

[SAYIT]

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G-S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G-S exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G-S employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

YOU saying they didnt have undue influence doesnt make THAT so. I would say the former employee saying it has a lot of weight.

I have just as much of an idea as you........."the child like belief that all would be forgiven"...somehow my conjecture seems a little more realistic than your pompous braying.

People often have reasons for trashing their former employers that have nothing to do with the truth and I never claimed that G-S did or didn't exert undo influence ... I simply stated you have failed to make your case. IMHO it is far more likely that Greek gov't officials exerted undo influence on weak S-G accountants.
Clearly Greece CHOSE to join the EU and CHOSE not only to falsify their application but also to borrow and spend far beyond their means.
What all loony lefties (including the Greeks) just can't admit is the part Greeks played in their tragedy and their silence for so many years.

 

[dcraelin]

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G-S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G-S exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G-S employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

YOU saying they didnt have undue influence doesnt make THAT so. I would say the former employee saying it has a lot of weight.

I have just as much of an idea as you........."the child like belief that all would be forgiven"...somehow my conjecture seems a little more realistic than your pompous braying.

People often have reasons for trashing their former employers that have nothing to do with the truth and I never claimed that G-S did or didn't exert undo influence ... I simply stated you have failed to make your case. IMHO it is far more likely that Greek gov't officials exerted undo influence on weak S-G accountants.
Clearly Greece CHOSE to join the EU and CHOSE not only to falsify their application but also to borrow and spend far beyond their means.
What all loony lefties (including the Greeks) just can't admit is the part Greeks played in their tragedy and their silence for so many years.

your opinion is far from humble.............yes, the weak S-G employees came away with millions in likely fees but they were just used..........somehow I bet most of the greek "leaders" didnt make out so good.

it was there and it is here the crooked 'conservatives' not the "loony" left that you need to worry about.

 

[Synthaholic]

25% unemployment

Uh...that means 75% employment.

That means depression.

It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.

 

[Steinlight]

25% unemployment

Uh...that means 75% employment.

That means depression.

It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.

If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.

 

[Toro]

Greece is in a depression.

And they're likely to get out of it any time soon.

I hope I'm wrong though.

I do think that this delays the inevitable, and Greece will eventually default on their debt and leave the eurozone.

 

[Synthaholic]

25% unemployment

Uh...that means 75% employment.

That means depression.

It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.

If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.

Dumbass, you said:

There is no money to collect

Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.

Pretty simple stuff here.

 

[Steinlight]

25% unemployment

Uh...that means 75% employment.

That means depression.

It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.

If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.

Dumbass, you said:

There is no money to collect

Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.

Pretty simple stuff here.

You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default. That means, a lack of money to pay their bills. Debt and the inability to pay it off comes from not having money, not having "plenty of paychecks".

Once again, simple stuff. Not surprised it escapes you though.

 

[IsaacNewton]

We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.

As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.

China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.

 

[Linkiloo]

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of madness. More austerity will result in continued economic recession (depression) and regardless of reforms Greece will owe more than than it does today. This is only a ploy to continue paying the creditors at the expense of European taxpayers.

Until the Greek debt is forgiven either by the ECB et al, or the Greeks by defaulting and returning to a national currency, will there be a solution. The Greeks cannot pay the interest due on their debt, much less the principle.

Wrong. The creditors are the European taypayers. I am one of them and I for one, want Greece out sooner than later.