Greece tells banking cartel STICK IT

[Synthaholic]

There is no money to collect, you can't even get to an ATM in Greece because the debt has sapped the country of its wealth.

You make it sound like no one has any money, no one has a job, no one is getting a paycheck.

 

[Synthaholic]

A hundred billion here, a hundred billion there, pretty soon you're talking about real money.
The cost was well in excess of one trillion dollars.

I already proved that's a lie, yet here you are...

 

[Synthaholic]

Yes taxing people already over taxed will lead to prosperity.

Who is overtaxed? The Greek people?

 

[Synthaholic]

Greece is done.

Not even close.

Greece represents the failure of Democratic Socialism (Social Democracy). It is economically obsolete.

False. Greece represents the failure of not having a working tax collection apparatus.

Yeah, go with that.
Total face plant fail.

If you read anything other than Brietbart and WorldNutDaily you might know a few things.

 

[Synthaholic]

Greece is done.

Not even close.

Greece represents the failure of Democratic Socialism (Social Democracy). It is economically obsolete.

False. Greece represents the failure of not having a working tax collection apparatus.

Yeah, go with that.
Total face plant fail.

I post these because it's just so easy and so much fun exposing you for the fool that you are:

This is the real reason Greece has a massive tax-evasion problem - Business Insider

6 in 10 Greeks don t pay income taxes - CNN.com

Greece struggles to address its tax evasion problem World news The Guardian

Greece Struggles to Get Citizens to Pay Their Taxes - WSJ

No go back and read what you just ignorantly responded to, fool.

 

[montelatici]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

 

[Andylusion]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

 

[Toro]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

It doesn't matter if the debt is owed to governments. Germany defaulted on its WWI reparations to the Allies, which was debt to governments. The Greek debt was originally to private interests that mostly have been transferred to government entities.

Montelatici is correct. Ultimately, Greece needs to default, leave the eurozone (but not the EU), reintroduce the drachma, and restructure its debts. Because unless Germany wants to perpetually subsidize Greece, or Greece becomes like Germany, there is no other way. Greece wants to stay in the eurozone but they can't without constant subsidization.

 

[dcraelin]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.

and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.

 

[Andylusion]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

It doesn't matter if the debt is owed to governments. Germany defaulted on its WWI reparations to the Allies, which was debt to governments. The Greek debt was originally to private interests that mostly have been transferred to government entities.

Montelatici is correct. Ultimately, Greece needs to default, leave the eurozone (but not the EU), reintroduce the drachma, and restructure its debts. Because unless Germany wants to perpetually subsidize Greece, or Greece becomes like Germany, there is no other way. Greece wants to stay in the eurozone but they can't without constant subsidization.

No, you are incorrect.

Why has Germany taken so long to pay off its WWI debt - BBC News

Germany is finally paying off World War I reparations, with the last 70 million euro (£60m) payment drawing the debt to a close.​

Again, they paid back every last penny of those debts.

The only debts they didn't pay off, were privately held debts. Germany has been paying back those debts for decades now.

I stand by my original statement. Greece literally, can not avoid those debts. They *WILL* pay them back, in full, now or later.

The only question is, how much damage will they cause their own economy, in delaying the payback.

 

[Andylusion]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.

and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.

Yes and no.

Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no. But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession. Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise. If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.

It would pump up tourism.... in theory. Yes. Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.

But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma. So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut. If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.

The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though. If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell.... cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".

 

[Toro]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

It doesn't matter if the debt is owed to governments. Germany defaulted on its WWI reparations to the Allies, which was debt to governments. The Greek debt was originally to private interests that mostly have been transferred to government entities.

Montelatici is correct. Ultimately, Greece needs to default, leave the eurozone (but not the EU), reintroduce the drachma, and restructure its debts. Because unless Germany wants to perpetually subsidize Greece, or Greece becomes like Germany, there is no other way. Greece wants to stay in the eurozone but they can't without constant subsidization.

No, you are incorrect.

Why has Germany taken so long to pay off its WWI debt - BBC News

Germany is finally paying off World War I reparations, with the last 70 million euro (£60m) payment drawing the debt to a close.​

Again, they paid back every last penny of those debts.

The only debts they didn't pay off, were privately held debts. Germany has been paying back those debts for decades now.

I stand by my original statement. Greece literally, can not avoid those debts. They *WILL* pay them back, in full, now or later.

The only question is, how much damage will they cause their own economy, in delaying the payback.

I said that Germany defaulted on their debt. A default is when principle or interest payments are not made on time. That's exactly what happened with Germany. Not only that, but the original reparations were $269 billion gold marks, which was later negotiated down to $112 billion 10 years later, a haircut of nearly 60%.

Legacy of Versailles Germany Closes Book on World War I With Final Reparations Payment - SPIEGEL ONLINE

I don't know if Greece will pay back its debt, though I highly doubt it. But there is nothing in law or convention that requires a government to be paid back debt simply because it is held by the government.

 

[Andylusion]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

It doesn't matter if the debt is owed to governments. Germany defaulted on its WWI reparations to the Allies, which was debt to governments. The Greek debt was originally to private interests that mostly have been transferred to government entities.

Montelatici is correct. Ultimately, Greece needs to default, leave the eurozone (but not the EU), reintroduce the drachma, and restructure its debts. Because unless Germany wants to perpetually subsidize Greece, or Greece becomes like Germany, there is no other way. Greece wants to stay in the eurozone but they can't without constant subsidization.

No, you are incorrect.

Why has Germany taken so long to pay off its WWI debt - BBC News

Germany is finally paying off World War I reparations, with the last 70 million euro (£60m) payment drawing the debt to a close.​

Again, they paid back every last penny of those debts.

The only debts they didn't pay off, were privately held debts. Germany has been paying back those debts for decades now.

I stand by my original statement. Greece literally, can not avoid those debts. They *WILL* pay them back, in full, now or later.

The only question is, how much damage will they cause their own economy, in delaying the payback.

I said that Germany defaulted on their debt. A default is when principle or interest payments are not made on time. That's exactly what happened with Germany. Not only that, but the original reparations were $269 billion gold marks, which was later negotiated down to $112 billion 10 years later, a haircut of nearly 60%.

Legacy of Versailles Germany Closes Book on World War I With Final Reparations Payment - SPIEGEL ONLINE

I don't know if Greece will pay back its debt, though I highly doubt it. But there is nothing in law or convention that requires a government to be paid back debt simply because it is held by the government.

Oh ok... alright. Too many people assume "default" means that they simply don't pay their debts. I erroneously assumed you were using that definition.

Yes, Germany failed to pay on time. Greece has already done that back in 2010. Technically speaking Greece has been in default for 5 years already.

Yes, I would also agree that there is nothing in law or convention that requires a government to pay back to other governments.
Agreed. That is correct.

But the problem again, is that the only way you get someone you owe money to, to take the hair cut, is by having a higher authority involved.

Take Argentina for example, which owed billions in bonds to various investors. What did they do, to get the investors to take a hair cut?

They met with them in the US, with a US government arbiter. The investors met under the authority and arbitration of the US government, with the Argentine government.

Now if the debt was with the US government..... who is going to arbitrate that? Who is going to "put the screws on" the US government to compromise? No one. There is no higher authority. There there is no one to put pressure on the EU, or the ECB, or the IMF, to try and force them to take a hair cut.

Now it is theoretically possible that the citizens of the respective countries affected, could push their own government to compromise.... but what possible motivation would they have?

"Yes, please give Greece debt forgiveness of the billions of Euros we loaned them, so that we can jack up our tax rates to pay for even more loans to Greece that they will ask for debt forgiveness on later..........."

Who is going to want that?

 

[dcraelin]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.

and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.

Yes and no.

Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no. But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession. Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise. If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.

It would pump up tourism.... in theory. Yes. Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.

But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma. So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut. If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.

The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though. If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell.... cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".

My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....

It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.

Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.

No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.

 

[Andylusion]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.

and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.

Yes and no.

Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no. But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession. Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise. If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.

It would pump up tourism.... in theory. Yes. Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.

But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma. So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut. If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.

The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though. If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell.... cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".

My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....

It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.

Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.

No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.

The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.

The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.

For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........ the same EU they just defaulted on..... Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well? Not a chance.

Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece? Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?

Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece? Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?

And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.

This is Greece. Empty shelves.

Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ

Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades. Now maybe it will....

But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....

The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase. It's unavoidable.

As for African nations.... Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly. If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan..... I can live like a King.... for awhile.

Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.

Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well.... Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.

 

[SAYIT]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.

and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.

Yes and no.

Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no. But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession. Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise. If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.

It would pump up tourism.... in theory. Yes. Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.

But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma. So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut. If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.

The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though. If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell.... cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".

My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....

It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.

Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.

No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.

The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.

The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.

For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........ the same EU they just defaulted on..... Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well? Not a chance.

Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece? Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?

Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece? Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?

And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.

View attachment 44399
This is Greece. Empty shelves.

Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ

Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades. Now maybe it will....

But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....

The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase. It's unavoidable.

As for African nations.... Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly. If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan..... I can live like a King.... for awhile.

Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.

Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well.... Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.

Argentina is not a great comparable because unlike Greece, they have natural resources. The austerity rejected by Greeks will, as you noted, still be imposed but the imposer will be the Greek gov't and market forces and the international debts on which they have and will continue to default (big payments are due this summer) will not just go away. Someday they will want back into the global economy and only hard currency (euros, dollars) will buy their re-entry.

 

[Toro]

My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....

Your understanding would be incorrect.

 

[Synthaholic]

Argentina is not a great comparable because unlike Greece, they have natural resources.

I'm actually partial to Greek natural resources:

 

[SAYIT]

Argentina is not a great comparable because unlike Greece, they have natural resources.

I'm actually partial to Greek natural resources:

Yeah, dat's some fine resources but unless they or you have about $90bil to provide for Greece's party, it's over.

 

[dcraelin]

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed. Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again. Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them. With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.

You are missing something important. Greece does not have the ability to default. Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals. The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy. It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt. That's what "strategic default" is all about. And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter? What if the there is no authority over your creditor? Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan. You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.

Back to Greece.

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece. Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs. It's not bankruptable.
The IMF is not bankruptable. The ECB is not bankruptable. The Eurozone is not bankruptable.

Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt. Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less. They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods. Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock. Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.

The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.

and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.

Yes and no.

Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no. But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession. Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise. If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.

It would pump up tourism.... in theory. Yes. Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.

But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma. So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut. If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.

The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though. If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell.... cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".

My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....

It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.

Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.

No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.

The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.

The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.

For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........ the same EU they just defaulted on..... Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well? Not a chance.

Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece? Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?

Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece? Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?

And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.

View attachment 44399
This is Greece. Empty shelves.

Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ

Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades. Now maybe it will....

But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....

The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase. It's unavoidable.

As for African nations.... Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly. If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan..... I can live like a King.... for awhile.

Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.

Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well.... Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.

first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price. The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.

Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.

Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.

I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way. But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.

The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.