Greece tells banking cartel STICK IT

[Linkiloo]

We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.

As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.

China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.

The Monetary Union ultimately should split up into the North and the South. That way, we northerners, will be going on cheaper holidays instead of sending out taxes over to them so that they can retire at 50. China could bail out Greece but China knows to invest its money well and isn't looking to put its money into a bad investment. Only we northern Europeans are that idiotic.

 

[Andylusion]

The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.

The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.

For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........ the same EU they just defaulted on..... Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well? Not a chance.

Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece? Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?

Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece? Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?

And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.

View attachment 44399
This is Greece. Empty shelves.

Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ

Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades. Now maybe it will....

But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....

The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase. It's unavoidable.

As for African nations.... Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly. If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan..... I can live like a King.... for awhile.

Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.

Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well.... Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.

first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price. The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.

Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.

Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.

I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way. But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.

The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.

Making me work to prove my case eh? Very well.

What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission

Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​

The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU. The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.

If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.

Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU. While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.

The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust. Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU. Possible... yes. Likely? No.

Corrupt Right wing? Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean. From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades. New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.

And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.

There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending. If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements. That's how lending works.

If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great. Don't borrow the money.

The IMF is not dumb for lending. They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back. That's why everyone hates the IMF. They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.

The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly. The EU taxpayers are screwed.

In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)

PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.

You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.

As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down. If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

 

[Andylusion]

We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.

As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.

China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.

I've heard this claim too. I don't understand the logic behind this.

Even the most optimistic of economists, suggests that leaving the EU, would be absolutely catastrophic for Greece.

Who would invest in Greece if they left? If I'm an investor, the last place I'd invest in would be Greece if they left. Importing raw materials would be more expensive, because there would be import duties, and the decline of the Drachma, would mean I'd have to spend more to get less material to run my company.

Additionally, now all my exports would have custom duties levied against my products, making them less competitive against EU produced goods.

There would be zero benefits, and tons of negatives.

The economy would at the minimum go into recession, and at worst, a decade long depression.

The whole reason countries joined the EU and Eurozone, was specifically because it was economically beneficial. And that has been echo'd by people interviewed in Greece. They want to stay in the EU.

Now perhaps all that is wrong, but assuming it is not wrong, then why not let them leave the EU?

If Greece does crash into total depression after leaving the EU, I think the danger of other countries leaving the EU would be lower, not higher. If I'm Portugal, and I see Greece ditch the Euro and end up in catastrophe, I would be less interested in following their lead.... not more. It doesn't make sense, that people would see destruction, and conclude they want the same deal.

 

[dcraelin]

first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price. The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.

Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.

Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.

I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way. But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.

The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.

Making me work to prove my case eh? Very well.

What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission

Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​

The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU. The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.

If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.

Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU. While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.

The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust. Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU. Possible... yes. Likely? No.

Corrupt Right wing? Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean. From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades. New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.

And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.

There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending. If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements. That's how lending works.

If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great. Don't borrow the money.

The IMF is not dumb for lending. They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back. That's why everyone hates the IMF. They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.

The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly. The EU taxpayers are screwed.

In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)

PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.

You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.

As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down. If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

 

[Toro]

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

 

[dcraelin]

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

 

[Andylusion]

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

 

[Unkotare]

[

Who would invest in Greece if they left? ...

Russian mafioso.

 

[Andylusion]

Making me work to prove my case eh? Very well.

What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission

Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​

The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU. The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.

If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.

Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU. While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.

The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust. Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU. Possible... yes. Likely? No.

Corrupt Right wing? Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean. From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades. New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.

And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.

There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending. If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements. That's how lending works.

If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great. Don't borrow the money.

The IMF is not dumb for lending. They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back. That's why everyone hates the IMF. They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.

The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly. The EU taxpayers are screwed.

In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)

PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.

You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.

As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down. If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

So basically it doesn't matter what the evidence, because in the end, everything is what you have already determined it to be.

Kind of you to let everyone know it's a waste of time talking to you.

 

[Andylusion]

[

Who would invest in Greece if they left? ...

Russian mafioso.

I highly doubt that. The only way Russia would invest, is if they could get highly favorable policies. I can't see Greeks handling that well.

They would invest if the economy was strong enough to be profitable to begin with.... but clearly that isn't the case. Thus they would only do it, if they could get some sort of monoplistic policies.

You think Greece will buy? I can't see it.

 

[theHawk]

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

LOL, how did that work out for them?

This is exactly what is wrong with progressives, they think they can just hold some feel good referendum and it will make all their problems go away.

This one blew up their face.

 

[SAYIT]

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'

This is exactly what is wrong with progressives, they think they can just hold some feel good referendum and it will make all their problems go away. This one blew up their face.

It's not like the loony left cabal gives a flying donkey chip. They are so busy celebrating their Oxi "victory" (spending OPM to pay for the party) that they just don't see the carnage it has wrought. If you build your house of straw the big bad wolf will blow it down.

 

[IsaacNewton]

We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.

As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.

China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.

I've heard this claim too. I don't understand the logic behind this.

Even the most optimistic of economists, suggests that leaving the EU, would be absolutely catastrophic for Greece.

Who would invest in Greece if they left? If I'm an investor, the last place I'd invest in would be Greece if they left. Importing raw materials would be more expensive, because there would be import duties, and the decline of the Drachma, would mean I'd have to spend more to get less material to run my company.

Additionally, now all my exports would have custom duties levied against my products, making them less competitive against EU produced goods.

There would be zero benefits, and tons of negatives.

The economy would at the minimum go into recession, and at worst, a decade long depression.

The whole reason countries joined the EU and Eurozone, was specifically because it was economically beneficial. And that has been echo'd by people interviewed in Greece. They want to stay in the EU.

Now perhaps all that is wrong, but assuming it is not wrong, then why not let them leave the EU?

If Greece does crash into total depression after leaving the EU, I think the danger of other countries leaving the EU would be lower, not higher. If I'm Portugal, and I see Greece ditch the Euro and end up in catastrophe, I would be less interested in following their lead.... not more. It doesn't make sense, that people would see destruction, and conclude they want the same deal.

We are talking about nations, what 'you' would do is irrelevant.

There are many in the Eurozone talking about this very thing, because nations don't take kindly to being told what to do.

The rest of the world doesn't have the cowboy attitude. That is a U.S. thing.

 

[Andylusion]

We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.

As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.

China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.

I've heard this claim too. I don't understand the logic behind this.

Even the most optimistic of economists, suggests that leaving the EU, would be absolutely catastrophic for Greece.

Who would invest in Greece if they left? If I'm an investor, the last place I'd invest in would be Greece if they left. Importing raw materials would be more expensive, because there would be import duties, and the decline of the Drachma, would mean I'd have to spend more to get less material to run my company.

Additionally, now all my exports would have custom duties levied against my products, making them less competitive against EU produced goods.

There would be zero benefits, and tons of negatives.

The economy would at the minimum go into recession, and at worst, a decade long depression.

The whole reason countries joined the EU and Eurozone, was specifically because it was economically beneficial. And that has been echo'd by people interviewed in Greece. They want to stay in the EU.

Now perhaps all that is wrong, but assuming it is not wrong, then why not let them leave the EU?

If Greece does crash into total depression after leaving the EU, I think the danger of other countries leaving the EU would be lower, not higher. If I'm Portugal, and I see Greece ditch the Euro and end up in catastrophe, I would be less interested in following their lead.... not more. It doesn't make sense, that people would see destruction, and conclude they want the same deal.

We are talking about nations, what 'you' would do is irrelevant.

There are many in the Eurozone talking about this very thing, because nations don't take kindly to being told what to do.

The rest of the world doesn't have the cowboy attitude. That is a U.S. thing.

And you don't see the inherent contradiction?

Greece is trying to dictate to other nations "You have to loan us money, and you have to do so without stipulations".

Germany doesn't take too kindly to be told what to do either.

Nor do many of the EU countries that Greece is trying to dictate terms to.

If Greece doesn't want to be told what to do.... as I said before..... there's an easy solution. Stop borrowing money, and they can ignore all of them.

But as long as Greece demands loans, people are going to tell them what to do. That isn't a "U.S." thing. That's a world wide, everywhere thing.

And contrary to what you claim, the entire argument going on in the Eurozone is proof that I'm right, and you are wrong.

 

[dcraelin]

The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

 

[dcraelin]

In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)

PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.

You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.

As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down. If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

So basically it doesn't matter what the evidence, because in the end, everything is what you have already determined it to be.

Kind of you to let everyone know it's a waste of time talking to you.

ditto my last reply

 

[SAYIT]

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

He made no unsubstantiated claims such as "It very well did constitute undue influence" and "they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party 'ew Democracy' by the bankers and elitists" and "they are fuckin scum." The fact remains it has been you and only you posting BS and pretending it is fact. You've proven none of it but you have proven yourself to be a rabid loony leftist just filled to the brim with hate for anyone or anything successful.

 

[Toro]

pretty sure it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs. It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.

I would agree to this extent, that the Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

You were the one that made the original accusation. You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.

 

[SAYIT]

...If I'm Portugal, and I see Greece ditch the Euro and end up in catastrophe, I would be less interested in following their lead...

We are talking about nations, what 'you' would do is irrelevant. There are many in the Eurozone talking about this very thing, because nations don't take kindly to being told what to do...

Andy's opinion is about how other nations might react to Greece's demise and opinion is certainly a valid part of the discussion here. I wish we could get some rational opinions from the socialist side.
All this whining and hand-wringing is making my head hurt.

 

[dcraelin]

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

He made no unsubstantiated claims such as "It very well did constitute undue influence" and "they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party 'ew Democracy' by the bankers and elitists" and "they are fuckin scum." The fact remains it has been you and only you posting BS and pretending it is fact. You've proven none of it but you have proven yourself to be a rabid loony leftist just filled to the brim with hate for anyone or anything successful.

''

This is also a forum of opinion you dolt, "They are fukin scum" is clearly opinion.

he said the Greeks acted like children...........is that fact or unsubstantiated claim?????

I hate not the successful if it really is success, not undue influence peddling and the scum actions of bankers preying on weak and/or corrupt and/or retarded rt-wing politicians; or if they prey on naive lft-wingers who blindly trust scum bankers.