Originally posted by walwor
I don't understand your point of view on this. Didn't G-d slay His enemies? Didn't the Israelites slay the Canaanites? Is there not the promise of G-d, "Vengeance is Mine?" Don't the prophets indicate that G-d will be avenged on His enemies? Why, then, is this parable such a stumbling block for you? I will say again, that the nobleman in the parable is Jesus at His second coming- an event which is still in the future, at the culmination of Armageddon. In your own opinion, when the Messiah comes, will He or will He not have vengeance on the enemies of G-d?
Walwor you really are a trip. It seems that you just create boundaries and hidden meanings that you find in Luke 19.
NO G-d in the Old Testament ever did say to slay His enemies before Him. Your analogy is like comparing lamp posts to moon beams.
Jesus said in his returning Nobleman parable on the second appearance or his second coming in Luke 19:27 as the Nobleman.
Luke 19
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
You use the comparisons of this parable with the Hebrews (not yet Israelites) killing the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites being only one of those who occupied the land. You then quote that G-d said vengeance is mine followed by Old Testament prophets who foresee G-dÂ’s vengeance on His enemies.
Jesus aka the nobleman state in a ‘parable’ that those who don’t think they should be ruled over by Christ or a later appearance of Jesus as the Nobleman should be slain in his presence.
In the Old Testament, it is not G-d who wants Joshua and the Hebrew people to slay the people of the land simply because they didnÂ’t believe on the One G-d and Creator.
The Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites were all to be slain because they were immoral evil peoples who sacrificed their children in fires to their primitive gods. Also that the continued existence of these people could pollute the Hebrews with the existence of a foreign god who wanted children burned in flames.
It was G-d Himself that commanded the Hebrews to battle these evil people but there is no reference that G-d wanted them slain before Him. Even though these people were stronger and mightier than the Hebrews, G-d made these people to become weakened and confused just like the Arab countries who attack Israel to this very day in five wars.
When G-d said that “vengeance was His”, He was referencing that men should not kill other human beings in response to being attacked or killed but that is to be left to G-d Himself. In other words G-d did not order the Hebrews to slay anyone because they DON’T BELIEVE ON HIM…
G-d did not say through the prophets that He would destroy those who did not believe in G-d but instead that those nations that came against Israel and His people would be destroyed by G-d Himself and not by the hand of any man. In other words He is not asking any humans to slay the enemies of Israel but that G-d would destroy these people like He did with the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
There is just no analogy between your Luke 19 parable and the
Old Testament G-d.
I've stated the lesson of the parable. The reader, or listener, is to learn not to hoard the gifts of G-d. Jesus adds the final verse about slaying of enemies to emphasize that this is no idle thing, that on His return there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" as He states in other verses. If you look back, you will see where I examined this parable verse by individual verse to indicate the boundaries of the parable and who in the parable is speaking. Before we talk about the meaning of the parable, we have to agree on what verses constitute the parable, and you are still not convinced.
So if I correctly understand your interpretation of this parable you are saying 1) that hoarding his gifts will result in their being slain on his return as a Nobleman and/or 2) that those who do not want to be reigned over by Christ are to be slain in his presence by others?
Yes you have outlined your boundaries of this parable to say what you think it says. You think that I should be convinced of your parables meaning because you have found restrictions within it and you find that newer versions which change words to make the parable meaning clearer. As I last stated, the opinion of the Christian world has used this parable over the centuries to persecute, torture and murder the Jewish people who ‘refused to have him reign over them.’ Your parable boundary arguments just don’t hold water as it appears that Christianity has seen this parable in a very different light than you.
Let me give you an example of dealing with yourself on this. Let's say I am one of those who seeks to disprove the Bible. I point out the following verses of Isaiah 22:
"[12] And in that day did the Lord GOD of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth:
[13] And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die."
"Here," I say, "we have an example of Isaiah contradicting the word of the Lord, telling us there is joy and gladness when the Lord says there should be weeping and mourning. Isaiah tells his listeners to just eat and drink wine, for tomorrow we'll be dead. What kind of morality is it to teach his listeners to just eat and drink wine and do no good works? It proves Isaiah was no prophet, that he contradicted his own words...etc., etc."
This is typical of those who twist this Isaiah verse which clearly says but is not veiled in parables. If you read the entire Isaiah 22 chapter, you will see that this is the prophet telling the Hebrew people that because of their iniquity and sins, He will punish them into exile from the land promised to their forefathers. History has clearly shown this occurred and all except the tribe of Judah who stayed in the south of Israel were taken off into the Diaspora. Ergo the prophecy of Isaiah came true and he was a true prophet.
Now read from the KJV version of this Isaiah 22 chapter:
Isaiah 22:17-18
17 Behold, the L-RD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee.
18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house.
Do you see what Isaiah the prophet was actually referring to unabiguously?
Now let's say you argue with me, convinced I can be made to see reason. But no matter what you say, I will refuse to see that verse 13 is still the Lord talking and condemning, but I will insist it is Isaiah himself saying this, and when you have tired yourself explaining the obvious 10 times over, I will say, "See, you are just frustrated because your position is wrong." Fun, huh?
I choose not to argue or debate with you but simply to discuss and contrast your interpretation of Luke. You can say that I do not understand your view no matter how many ways you try to convince me. You seem to be the one frustrated as you have proved yourself wrong. Having fun yet?
