Government starved of revenues due to tax deferral programs.

if it’s homelessness for your family on underwater house payments (2009-2013), Many chose to hang on until market recovery. Not all bad ideas.
Okay, sure if you are trying to avoid an end-of-the-world situation like foreclosure or bankruptcy and being homeless.... then I agree with you.

Here's the catch. I'm assuming that if you are facing that situation, it means you lost your job. If you lost your job, your 401k loan becomes due in full. So you can't borrow from your 401k to avoid those things if you lost your job, because your loan is due in full if you lose your job.

But short of those catastrophic problems, then borrowing from your 401k is absolutely stupid.

The whole point, the whole entire point of an investment, is to have your money work for you.
If you are "paying yourself interest", then you are working for your money. That defeats the entire purpose.

That's like buying a rental property..... renting it out to yourself.... and saying "I'm not paying a landlord rent! I'm paying myself rent!". Does that seem dumb?

"I'm not paying the bank interest! I'm paying myself interest!".... same thing.

The whole entire point, is you are not paying your stocks... but your stocks are paying you. You are investing in Microsoft, not so you and pay yourself, but so that Microsoft pays YOU.

The whole reason you invest in a mutual fund, is not so you can pay back your mutual fund with interest, but so that your mutual fund works and produces value TO YOU.
growthfund.png

Here's a small fund I have. See that I got dividends and I got a capital gain. That money that my investments earned ME.
If I borrow from my 401k, instead of them paying me, now I'm paying myself. I wouldn't get $1,150 from my money working for me, instead I'd be working for my own money.

Borrowing from your investments, is really dumb. Yes, if you are facing catastrophe I get it, but otherwise, it's really stupid. No one should ever say "I'm paying myself interest" because that's idiotic. Defeats the whole purpose of investing.
 
Other people are not and need those plans.

How do they know they need them? Their retirement is decades away. Maybe they need the money that they are putting in now for living expenses, or to save for the down payment on a house. Many are drawn in by the shared contribution of their employer.

No worries. I don't think they're going away any time soon.
 
Okay, sure if you are trying to avoid an end-of-the-world situation like foreclosure or bankruptcy and being homeless.... then I agree with you.

Here's the catch. I'm assuming that if you are facing that situation, it means you lost your job. If you lost your job, your 401k loan becomes due in full. So you can't borrow from your 401k to avoid those things if you lost your job, because your loan is due in full if you lose your job.

But short of those catastrophic problems, then borrowing from your 401k is absolutely stupid.

The whole point, the whole entire point of an investment, is to have your money work for you.
If you are "paying yourself interest", then you are working for your money. That defeats the entire purpose.

That's like buying a rental property..... renting it out to yourself.... and saying "I'm not paying a landlord rent! I'm paying myself rent!". Does that seem dumb?

"I'm not paying the bank interest! I'm paying myself interest!".... same thing.

The whole entire point, is you are not paying your stocks... but your stocks are paying you. You are investing in Microsoft, not so you and pay yourself, but so that Microsoft pays YOU.

The whole reason you invest in a mutual fund, is not so you can pay back your mutual fund with interest, but so that your mutual fund works and produces value TO YOU.
View attachment 932469
Here's a small fund I have. See that I got dividends and I got a capital gain. That money that my investments earned ME.
If I borrow from my 401k, instead of them paying me, now I'm paying myself. I wouldn't get $1,150 from my money working for me, instead I'd be working for my own money.

Borrowing from your investments, is really dumb. Yes, if you are facing catastrophe I get it, but otherwise, it's really stupid. No one should ever say "I'm paying myself interest" because that's idiotic. Defeats the whole purpose of investing.

agreed. If you had a job. Many pulled money out AFTER losing a job. many had to pay back an outstanding loan or they applied it as 1099 income AFTER losing your job also. it came down to betting on yourself (another job) and a return to value in your home In millions of CA cases for certainty. I was in it.
 
So you get rid of these plans that causes government to lose money.
Then no one saves for retirement.
Now the government has no investments to tax at all at retirement, and since those people have no retirement now, they end up being entirely dependent on government programs, costing the government even more money.

How is this better?
Lots of people save for retirement without having a tax deferred plan. I bought a rental property to provide for mine. Worked out great. I also have a pretty good SS benefit. No IRA's or 401's. It's not "have a 401 or be doomed to live in squalor at retirement". There are other ways to save.
 
Lots of people save for retirement without having a tax deferred plan. I bought a rental property to provide for mine. Worked out great. I also have a pretty good SS benefit. No IRA's or 401's. It's not "have a 401 or be doomed to live in squalor at retirement". There are other ways to save.
Are you aware that you could have purchased your rental property in an IRA, and gained all the tax benefits?
IRAs and 401ks operate identically for tax purposes.

Yes, there are other ways to save. 401ks and IRAs are two of the best though.
 
How do they know they need them? Their retirement is decades away. Maybe they need the money that they are putting in now for living expenses, or to save for the down payment on a house. Many are drawn in by the shared contribution of their employer.

No worries. I don't think they're going away any time soon.
Well they do, whether they are aware of it or not.

That's part of the key. Is we need to be teaching this stuff in schools, and getting people to invest.

If you need to pull money out of your investments, for living expenses, then you are doing something wrong. And in fact, that would be true, if you got rid of 401ks and IRAs. You would have people saving nothing, because of this problem right here.
The only chance they have is being convinced to use their 401ks and IRAs.
 
I knew a man who ran a business setting up retirement plans for small businesses. When he started he made the contributions voluntary. Even though a percentage was matched by the employer, few employees took advantage of the plan and essentially passed on significant free money offered by their employee. In America we live for today, we trust tomorrow will take care of itself. Dumb. I think retirement plans have to be mandatory or we'll end up with a lot of the elderly trying to live on Social Security.
Not my problem. Your lack of proper planning is not an emergency for me.
 
Does anyone know how much tax money those 401k's, IRA's, and other tax deferral plans are costing the government in revenues? I think it might be contributing to the budget and national debt problems. The cry goes out to 'tax the rich' but is it actually those middle-class tax deferral programs that are hurting more?
We have too much government
 

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