Zone1 Good morning from Europe

[toobfreak]

why are you scared to tell someone what country or state you live in?..

Because the country has a funny name like Luxembourg or Moldavia.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Welcome.

Europeans know it's called Freedom of Expression.

Has Sadiq Khan said anything about Henry Nowak?

Yet?

 

[Hafar1014]

It is always of interest to see what some of our friends over the pond are thinking about their own situation as well as that of the wider world.

I go to Scotland every year. We see Europe in decline. The main causes are too much social spending, renewable energy, immigration, lack of basic rights like free speech. Energy costs are too high and cant meet the demand of Data centers
The Industrial Exodus (Heavy & Energy-Intensive Sectors)

• Energy Crisis & Costs: Following the loss of cheap Russian gas, structurally higher energy prices have severely impacted heavy industries like steel, chemicals, and fertilizers. [1, 2]
• Automotive Decline: Core automotive powerhouses—especially in Germany—are struggling with massive structural shifts and cheap electric vehicle imports, prompting factory closures and consolidation. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
• Geopolitical Pressures: Strict domestic climate regulations combined with US protectionist tariffs (e.g., 25% on metals and 10% to 25% on other EU goods) have pushed companies to invest in the US or Asia. [1, 2]
• Job Losses: Over 2.3 million manufacturing jobs vanished in the EU between 2008 and 2023. [1]

 

[Hypatia415]

I go to Scotland every year. We see Europe in decline.

That makes me wonder why you bother to go. And how do your trips to Scotland give you an overview on all of Europe?

 

[Hafar1014]

That makes me wonder why you bother to go.

I have family there. I could live there except the taxes are too high and the healthcare is poor. But I love Stockbridge, the cafes and the food. Wonderful place

 

[ShahdagMountains]

I go to Scotland every year.

I’ve never been there. Though l know l should.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

But I love Stockbridge, the cafes and the food. Wonderful place.

Where’s that?

 

[Hypatia415]

that it has been my experience that europeans do not understand what free speech really is.

Even the USA does not have entirely unfettered freedom of speech. And of course there is always that debate with one's conscious/tact. While one may have the right to express a particular opinion is it always wise/tactful or even good mannered to do so?

 

[Hafar1014]

I’ve never been there. Though l know l should.

Edinburg is wonderful place

 

[Hafar1014]

Where’s that?

Next to Edinburg and Comely Bank

 

[SweetSue92]

That makes me wonder why you bother to go. And how do your trips to Scotland give you an overview on all of Europe?

Welcome to the boards.

I think much changed at the advent of the internet/WWW when Americans got a good fat dose of what Europeans really think of us. I'm pleased to see, decades later, that most Americans no longer give two flying furs what Europeans think of us, and that's facts.

Satisfying, especially coming into our 250th.

 

[Hypatia415]

Where’s that?

The other end of the country.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Edinburg is wonderful place

So l’ve heard.

 

[Hypatia415]

Welcome to the boards.

Thank you.

I think much changed at the advent of the internet/WWW when Americans got a good fat dose of what Europeans really think of us. I'm pleased to see, decades later, that most Americans no longer give two flying furs what Europeans think of us, and that's facts.

And that of course goes both ways.

Satisfying, especially coming into our 250th.

Or as the British king noted, "just the other day".

 

[SweetSue92]

Thank you.

And that of course goes both ways.

Or as the British king noted, "just the other day".

It's one thing to brag about age if you're still in fine form, but when your empire devolved to something much less and now even that is withering away, bragging about your age is like the dying gasps of a very ill, very old person. Yes, you're that old. And boy do you look it.

 

[Hypatia415]

It's one thing to brag about age if you're still in fine form, but when your empire devolved to something much less and now even that is withering away, bragging about your age is like the dying gasps of a very ill, very old person. Yes, you're that old. And boy do you look it.

The joke referred to longevity.

When visiting the USA some years ago I recall an American asking about the then house in which I lived. I replied that it was built around 1880, which elicited the reply "Gosh that's really old"!

 

[Hafar1014]

Even the USA does not have entirely unfettered freedom of speech. And of course there is always that debate with one's conscious/tact. While one may have the right to express a particular opinion is it always wise/tactful or even good mannered to do so?

There is no comparison Europe has no free speech
Yes, individuals are currently serving prison sentences or facing detention in several European nations for speech-related offenses. Unlike the broad protections of the U.S. First Amendment, European speech laws generally criminalize acts like inciting violence, hate speech, Holocaust denial, and in some countries, insulting public officials. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]

United Kingdom

• Arrest Rates: The UK has seen thousands of arrests connected to online communications. Laws such as Section 127 of the Communications Act and the Malicious Communications Act have led to over 30 arrests per day for speech crimes. [1, 2, 3]
• Sentencing: Individuals have been imprisoned for weeks or months (e.g., Lucy Connolly was sentenced to over 2 years for social media posts). [1, 2]
• Controversy: Critics argue the Online Safety Act and other speech laws are heavily chilling dissent and political expression. [1, 2]

Germany & Central Europe

• Insult Laws & Hate Speech: Germany rigorously prosecutes hate speech, incitement, and speech insulting politicians (Strafgesetzbuch Section 188). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]
• Penalties: While the most frequent punishment is stiff financial fines, or the seizure of electronic devices, repeat offenders and severe violations (such as denying the Holocaust or using unconstitutional Nazi symbols) carry prison sentences of up to five years. [1, 2, 3]
• Broader EU Context: Countries like Poland allow for up to two years in prison for offending religious feelings, and Cyprus bans promoting ill will. [1]

European Court of Human Rights (ECHR)

• The ECHR often balances free expression (Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights) against the protection of public order.
• Historically, the ECHR has ruled against countries when they cross the line into punishing truthful criticism of institutions (e.g., the Miguel Castells case in Spain), but it generally upholds restrictions regarding hate speech, defamation, and incitement depending on regional statutes. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

For an analysis of the tension between American free speech standards and European legal frameworks:

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'I'll

 

[Hypatia415]

There is no comparison Europe has no free speech
Yes, individuals are currently serving prison sentences or facing detention in several European nations for speech-related offenses. Unlike the broad protections of the U.S. First Amendment, European speech laws generally criminalize acts like inciting violence, hate speech, Holocaust denial, and in some countries, insulting public officials. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]

United Kingdom

• Arrest Rates: The UK has seen thousands of arrests connected to online communications. Laws such as Section 127 of the Communications Act and the Malicious Communications Act have led to over 30 arrests per day for speech crimes. [1, 2, 3]
• Sentencing: Individuals have been imprisoned for weeks or months (e.g., Lucy Connolly was sentenced to over 2 years for social media posts). [1, 2]
• Controversy: Critics argue the Online Safety Act and other speech laws are heavily chilling dissent and political expression. [1, 2]

Germany & Central Europe

• Insult Laws & Hate Speech: Germany rigorously prosecutes hate speech, incitement, and speech insulting politicians (Strafgesetzbuch Section 188). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]
• Penalties: While the most frequent punishment is stiff financial fines, or the seizure of electronic devices, repeat offenders and severe violations (such as denying the Holocaust or using unconstitutional Nazi symbols) carry prison sentences of up to five years. [1, 2, 3]
• Broader EU Context: Countries like Poland allow for up to two years in prison for offending religious feelings, and Cyprus bans promoting ill will. [1]

European Court of Human Rights (ECHR)

• The ECHR often balances free expression (Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights) against the protection of public order.
• Historically, the ECHR has ruled against countries when they cross the line into punishing truthful criticism of institutions (e.g., the Miguel Castells case in Spain), but it generally upholds restrictions regarding hate speech, defamation, and incitement depending on regional statutes. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

For an analysis of the tension between American free speech standards and European legal frameworks:
View attachment 1265431
41s


'I'll

“The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.” The word “falsely” does a lot of work in that sentence. Holmes was not talking about warning people of an actual fire. He was describing someone who deliberately lies in a way that triggers a stampede.

 

[Hafar1014]

“The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.” The word “falsely” does a lot of work in that sentence. Holmes was not talking about warning people of an actual fire. He was describing someone who deliberately lies in a way that triggers a stampede.

Red Herring

In 2003, a new law, the Communications Act, broadly prohibited undefined “malicious communications” and made it a criminal offense to “persistently make use of a public electronic communications network for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety”—all highly subjective categories. The act also authorized a new national regulatory agency, the Office of Communications (Ofcom), to monitor all forms of communication for illegal content. In other words, the law prohibited vague speech offenses and then empowered a government agency to police them.
In his Munich speech, Vance mentioned the case of Adam Smith-Connor, a 51-year-old British army veteran who was arrested two years ago for silently praying for his aborted son for three minutes within a 150-meter “buffer” zone around a Bournemouth abortion clinic. Smith-Connor’s conviction, now on appeal, imposed costs and penalties of nearly $13,000 and cost his local council authority over $100,000 in legal expenses.

 

[Hypatia415]

Red Herring

That you do not want to acknowledge that the USA has limits on free speech is duly noted.

In 2003, a new law, the Communications Act, broadly prohibited undefined “malicious communications” and made it a criminal offense to “persistently make use of a public electronic communications network for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety”—all highly subjective categories. The act also authorized a new national regulatory agency, the Office of Communications (Ofcom), to monitor all forms of communication for illegal content. In other words, the law prohibited vague speech offenses and then empowered a government agency to police them.

You do realise your own government as well as all the tech giants are monitoring you.

Does the name Edward Snowden ring any bells?

In his Munich speech, Vance mentioned the case of Adam Smith-Connor, a 51-year-old British army veteran who was arrested two years ago for silently praying for his aborted son for three minutes within a 150-meter “buffer” zone around a Bournemouth abortion clinic. Smith-Connor’s conviction, now on appeal, imposed costs and penalties of nearly $13,000 and cost his local council authority over $100,000 in legal expenses.

The buffer zones are in place to prevent those who have no business at the clinics hampering, harassing, or intimidating clients, staff, and local residents, as some of these clinics are located in residential areas.

Mr Smith-Connor was perfectly free to just stand outside that buffer zone and offer his prayers or he could have gone to a church and prayed there.

I regard actions such as his to be publicity stunts by those seeking attention.