God is the only rational explanation for the existence of the universe.

[ding]

Except you believe that space and time had no beginning.

That just isn't the case. It began 14 billion years ago.

I said nothing about "space and time". I referred to matter, and energy.

Matter and energy are space and time. One does not exist without the other.

so, what, then. is a quantum universe comprised of?

A false vacuum.

Nothing like the hot and dense state of our universe when space and time were created.

And what is a false vacuum?

A vacuum that is not filled with all the energy and matter of the universe. When that happened it began to expand and cool and space and time were created. That happened 14 billion years ago. No one disputes it.

 

[Czernobog]

I said nothing about "space and time". I referred to matter, and energy.

Matter and energy are space and time. One does not exist without the other.

so, what, then. is a quantum universe comprised of?

A false vacuum.

Nothing like the hot and dense state of our universe when space and time were created.

And what is a false vacuum?

A vacuum that is not filled with all the energy and matter of the universe. When that happened it began to expand and cool and space and time were created. That happened 14 billion years ago. No one disputes it.

and is a false vacuum stable?

 

[Flash]

[Q


That just isn't the case. It began 14 billion years ago.

We don't know that as a fact.

We have some evidence that may be the case but that is far from knowing for sure. We don't even know for sure that there was a Big Bang. We suspect there was based upon some constant background space noise and the evidence that the universe seems to be expanding but that is far from being conclusive.

If there was a Big Bang we have no idea what existed before the event or where the energy come from or what initialed the event. We sure as hell can't explain the physics of what happen. The Big Bang is against all the laws of physics as we know them. For instance, we have no idea what gravity is or where it came from but that is the basic glue of Creation.. If the gravity constant was a little less or a little more we would have no universe as it exist now.

There are many things for us to learn about the universe. Just about 80 years ago we didn't even know other galaxies existed. Fifteen years ago we didn't know if any other solar system had any planets.

Thinking that the universe magically created itself out of nothing is the modern day equivalent of believing that the universe is being carried on the back of some giant turtle.

 

[ding]

Matter and energy are space and time. One does not exist without the other.

so, what, then. is a quantum universe comprised of?

A false vacuum.

Nothing like the hot and dense state of our universe when space and time were created.

And what is a false vacuum?

A vacuum that is not filled with all the energy and matter of the universe. When that happened it began to expand and cool and space and time were created. That happened 14 billion years ago. No one disputes it.

and is a false vacuum stable?

Probably not. All we know is that it would have been in place with the laws of nature.

 

[Czernobog]

so, what, then. is a quantum universe comprised of?

A false vacuum.

Nothing like the hot and dense state of our universe when space and time were created.

And what is a false vacuum?

A vacuum that is not filled with all the energy and matter of the universe. When that happened it began to expand and cool and space and time were created. That happened 14 billion years ago. No one disputes it.

and is a false vacuum stable?

Probably not.

Let's just stick with the answer to the question. So, to clarify, we have an area of matter, and energy - but not all of the matter and energy that is found in the universe as we know it - that is unstable, and collapsing. What happens when that unstable false vacuum collapses? What happens to the matter, and energy that is contained therein?

 

[ding]

A false vacuum.

Nothing like the hot and dense state of our universe when space and time were created.

And what is a false vacuum?

A vacuum that is not filled with all the energy and matter of the universe. When that happened it began to expand and cool and space and time were created. That happened 14 billion years ago. No one disputes it.

and is a false vacuum stable?

Probably not.

Let's just stick with the answer to the question. So, to clarify, we have an area of matter, and energy - but not all of the matter and energy that is found in the universe as we know it - that is unstable, and collapsing. What happens when that unstable false vacuum collapses? What happens to the matter, and energy that is contained therein?

You don't know your own guy's theory?

 

[RWNJ]

[Q


That just isn't the case. It began 14 billion years ago.

We don't know that as a fact.

We have some evidence that may be the case but that is far from knowing for sure. We don't even know for sure that there was a Big Bang. We suspect there was based upon some constant background space noise and the evidence that the universe seems to be expanding but that is far from being conclusive.

If there was a Big Bang we have no idea what existed before the event or where the energy come from or what initialed the event. We sure as hell can't explain the physics of what happen. The Big Bang is against all the laws of physics as we know them. For instance, we have no idea what gravity is or where it came from but that is the basic glue of Creation.. If the gravity constant was a little less or a little more we would have no universe as it exist now.

There are many things for us to learn about the universe. Just about 80 years ago we didn't even know other galaxies existed. Fifteen years ago we didn't know if any other solar system had any planets.

Thinking that the universe magically created itself out of nothing is the modern day equivalent of believing that the universe is being carried on the back of some giant turtle.

You just had to bring Terry Pratchett into the discussion. Didn't you? Lol

 

[Czernobog]

And what is a false vacuum?

A vacuum that is not filled with all the energy and matter of the universe. When that happened it began to expand and cool and space and time were created. That happened 14 billion years ago. No one disputes it.

and is a false vacuum stable?

Probably not.

Let's just stick with the answer to the question. So, to clarify, we have an area of matter, and energy - but not all of the matter and energy that is found in the universe as we know it - that is unstable, and collapsing. What happens when that unstable false vacuum collapses? What happens to the matter, and energy that is contained therein?

You don't know your own guy's theory?

I'm walking you through, step by step, how the universe that we know could have been formed without any"supernatural" agent. You, understandably, would prefer that we not continue this line of enquiry, as it leads to somewhere other than "God did it".

 

[ding]

A vacuum that is not filled with all the energy and matter of the universe. When that happened it began to expand and cool and space and time were created. That happened 14 billion years ago. No one disputes it.

and is a false vacuum stable?

Probably not.

Let's just stick with the answer to the question. So, to clarify, we have an area of matter, and energy - but not all of the matter and energy that is found in the universe as we know it - that is unstable, and collapsing. What happens when that unstable false vacuum collapses? What happens to the matter, and energy that is contained therein?

You don't know your own guy's theory?

I'm walking you through, step by step, how the universe that we know could have been formed without any"supernatural" agent. You, understandably, would prefer that we not continue this line of enquiry, as it leads to somewhere other than "God did it".

Good luck with that. Let me help you out there.

The quantum event which created the universe did so following the laws of nature. Laws which existed before space and time. The source of those laws and the cause of the event leads us to a first cause conundrum. The only solution to this is something which is eternal and unchanging.

 

[Czernobog]

and is a false vacuum stable?

Probably not.

Let's just stick with the answer to the question. So, to clarify, we have an area of matter, and energy - but not all of the matter and energy that is found in the universe as we know it - that is unstable, and collapsing. What happens when that unstable false vacuum collapses? What happens to the matter, and energy that is contained therein?

You don't know your own guy's theory?

I'm walking you through, step by step, how the universe that we know could have been formed without any"supernatural" agent. You, understandably, would prefer that we not continue this line of enquiry, as it leads to somewhere other than "God did it".

Good luck with that. Let me help you out there.

The quantum event which created the universe did so following the laws of nature. Laws which existed before space and time. The source of those laws and the cause of the event leads us to a first cause conundrum. The only solution to this is something which is eternal and unchanging.

so says you. However, the model I presented says that doesn't have to be so. And you know it does, which is why you stopped answering my questions. In fact, you stopped answering right at the point you would have had to answer that the matter, and energy would have...wait for it...EXPLODED. You know...like in a Big. Bang.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What has caused the expansion of the universe to increase in

Why don't you tell us?

 

[Slyhunter]

2nd Law of Thermodynamics rules out an eternal or infinite acting universe.

Only as long as the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is/was in play. Maybe the universe has always existed, before that 2nd law came along.

That would only be possible if the universe had been static in its initial state. But that begs the question what made it start to expand and cool.

The first cause conundrum is unavoidable and only has one solution.

You forget that the Second Law of Thermodynamics does allow for zero entropy in a reversible process.

There are points at which irreversible processes happen. Specifically, when when particles decay or annihilate each other as in the early universe. Do this an infinite number of times and the universe will reach thermal equilibrium.

However, that assumes that the universe will expand infinitely. You have evidence to support that assertion? Newton's third law dictates that, at some point, the universe will reach its apex position, and the process will reverse.

In a Multi-verse it's possible for a Universe to expand infinitely making it literally impossible to travel from one solar system to another due to the speed of separation.

 

[DOTR]

Think about it. Nothing physical can create itself. This is a scientific fact. So if the universe wasn't created, then why does it exist? The only thing that makes sense is that it was created.

Of course.

 

[DOTR]

Think about it. Nothing physical can create itself. This is a scientific fact. So if the universe wasn't created, then why does it exist? The only thing that makes sense is that it was created.

God is usually pretty irrational by definition. You talk about scientific fact, but it seems that most people who believe in a god believe in a being that is outside of, or beyond; not bound by physical law. If the only rational explanation is that what we know of physical laws is wrong, or incomplete.....then who knows what the answers may be?

I think the only rational way to look at these sorts of things is with a shrug and an "I don't know." That isn't to say one shouldn't try to find explanations, only that people should be willing to admit to ignorance. There's no reason humanity has to be able to understand the existence of our universe, now or ever. People will keep searching, trying to understand, but it's entirely possible we'll never know the answers as a species.

I believe in God and I agree with you. Some things science will never know. So we leave it to philosophy. One of the soul destroying aspects of Marxism is their rejection of the human mind and capacity to wonder.
On a (slightly ) related topic we traveled for a wrestling match to a very old school in a small town this week. It was beautiful. Pre Stalinist. Columns out front, big windows, beautiful staircase with old crown molding along every wall. Much in contrast to the Stalin inspired “Soviet realism” and “brutalist” architecture used today.
Since they don’t believe in a soul the leftists see no reason for philosophy or beauty to feed it.

 

[Czernobog]

Only as long as the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is/was in play. Maybe the universe has always existed, before that 2nd law came along.

That would only be possible if the universe had been static in its initial state. But that begs the question what made it start to expand and cool.

The first cause conundrum is unavoidable and only has one solution.

You forget that the Second Law of Thermodynamics does allow for zero entropy in a reversible process.

There are points at which irreversible processes happen. Specifically, when when particles decay or annihilate each other as in the early universe. Do this an infinite number of times and the universe will reach thermal equilibrium.

However, that assumes that the universe will expand infinitely. You have evidence to support that assertion? Newton's third law dictates that, at some point, the universe will reach its apex position, and the process will reverse.

In a Multi-verse it's possible for a Universe to expand infinitely making it literally impossible to travel from one solar system to another due to the speed of separation.

Yeah, well, a multi-verse is a nice theory, but there is no evidence to support it. There is, however, evidence to support, and a mathematically sound model to demonstrate an inflationary model universe.

 

[Czernobog]

Think about it. Nothing physical can create itself. This is a scientific fact. So if the universe wasn't created, then why does it exist? The only thing that makes sense is that it was created.

And what created the creator? Now, you're going to say he always was. Why can that not be true of the universe?

 

[Czernobog]

Think about it. Nothing physical can create itself. This is a scientific fact. So if the universe wasn't created, then why does it exist? The only thing that makes sense is that it was created.

God is usually pretty irrational by definition. You talk about scientific fact, but it seems that most people who believe in a god believe in a being that is outside of, or beyond; not bound by physical law. If the only rational explanation is that what we know of physical laws is wrong, or incomplete.....then who knows what the answers may be?

I think the only rational way to look at these sorts of things is with a shrug and an "I don't know." That isn't to say one shouldn't try to find explanations, only that people should be willing to admit to ignorance. There's no reason humanity has to be able to understand the existence of our universe, now or ever. People will keep searching, trying to understand, but it's entirely possible we'll never know the answers as a species.

I believe in God and I agree with you. Some things science will never know. So we leave it to philosophy. One of the soul destroying aspects of Marxism is their rejection of the human mind and capacity to wonder.
On a (slightly ) related topic we traveled for a wrestling match to a very old school in a small town this week. It was beautiful. Pre Stalinist. Columns out front, big windows, beautiful staircase with old crown molding along every wall. Much in contrast to the Stalin inspired “Soviet realism” and “brutalist” architecture used today.
Since they don’t believe in a soul the leftists see no reason for philosophy or beauty to feed it.

The problem is that philosophy will never know anything. For every logical philosophical concept, there is an equally logical philosophical counter. Thus philosophy just goes round, and round never to resolve a thing.

This is why I prefer science. Because it is moving ever forward to new discoveries.

Furthermore, as I have oft repeated, should theists keep their god in the realm of philosophy, as a philosophical construct, never would they conflict with atheists. But, theists aren't content to do that. They want to insist that god is an existing entity in objective reality. Well, now. Anything that exists in objective reality will have objective evidence to indicate its existence. That is the realm of science.

You don't want objective evidence demanded of your god? Then keep your god in the realm of philosophy, and quit trying to assert his existence as an objective reality.

 

[ding]

A false vacuum.

Nothing like the hot and dense state of our universe when space and time were created.

And what is a false vacuum?

A vacuum that is not filled with all the energy and matter of the universe. When that happened it began to expand and cool and space and time were created. That happened 14 billion years ago. No one disputes it.

and is a false vacuum stable?

Probably not.

Let's just stick with the answer to the question. So, to clarify, we have an area of matter, and energy - but not all of the matter and energy that is found in the universe as we know it - that is unstable, and collapsing. What happens when that unstable false vacuum collapses? What happens to the matter, and energy that is contained therein?

In quantum field theory, a false vacuum is a vacuum that exists at a local minimum of energy and is therefore not truly stable. This is in contrast to a true vacuum, which exists at a global minimum and is stable. A false vacuum may be very long-lived, or metastable.

False vacuum - Wikipedia

Are you talking about a false vacuum that experienced an inflation event or one that didn't?

 

[ding]

Think about it. Nothing physical can create itself. This is a scientific fact. So if the universe wasn't created, then why does it exist? The only thing that makes sense is that it was created.

And what created the creator? Now, you're going to say he always was. Why can that not be true of the universe?

The only solution to the first cause conundrum, which is what you are describing, is something that is eternal and unchanging. How many times do you need to be told?

 

[Mindful]

Why rational? Is anything rational?

For our puny little brains to grasp?