Gingrich safety vs Paul Liberty???

[Full-Auto]

I would also be willing to bet if there was a company that had no searches before flights people would still opt for the other.

You havent explained away the no fly list. Prior to TSA we went through metal detectors.

There wasnt anything personal in that.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Being trteated as a criminal to board a plane is not perception.

Maybe you would like to be on the no fly list and not have been convicted of any crime.

I have been to jail as well as prison and being searched before getting on a plane is nothing like that I assure you. Besides as I said you have a choice.

A no fly list is a choice?

Will you say the same for property rights?

Like anything else in life mistakes happen and people are put on a list they don't belong on. Shit happens. As far as property rights go we have had problems in that area for a half a century or longer. That's not part of the debate that we are discussing.

 

[Full-Auto]

I have been to jail as well as prison and being searched before getting on a plane is nothing like that I assure you. Besides as I said you have a choice.

A no fly list is a choice?

Will you say the same for property rights?

Like anything else in life mistakes happen and people are put on a list they don't belong on. Shit happens. As far as property rights go we have had problems in that area for a half a century or longer. That's not part of the debate that we are discussing.

I stepped in where the comments were made that no freedoms have been lost.

I go back to my original statement.

Just mentioning TSA is more then adequate.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

A no fly list is a choice?

Will you say the same for property rights?

Like anything else in life mistakes happen and people are put on a list they don't belong on. Shit happens. As far as property rights go we have had problems in that area for a half a century or longer. That's not part of the debate that we are discussing.

I stepped in where the comments were made that no freedoms have been lost.

I go back to my original statement.

Just mentioning TSA is more then adequate.

And as I said your demon is perceived. Going through security is a pain in the ass no doubt but it is the sacrifice we make when WE CHOOSE to fly.

I'm not saying they may not abuse their power as we've all witnessed the ridiculous search of babies and grandma but that does not equate to lost freedoms imo.

 

[Full-Auto]

Like anything else in life mistakes happen and people are put on a list they don't belong on. Shit happens. As far as property rights go we have had problems in that area for a half a century or longer. That's not part of the debate that we are discussing.

I stepped in where the comments were made that no freedoms have been lost.

I go back to my original statement.

Just mentioning TSA is more then adequate.

And as I said your demon is perceived. Going through security is a pain in the ass no doubt but it is the sacrifice we make when WE CHOOSE to fly.

I'm not saying they may not abuse their power as we've all witnessed the ridiculous search of babies and grandma but that does not equate to lost freedoms imo.

LOL You so remind me of my youngest son, who has never experienced flying without TSA.

He said to me, whats the big deal dad, its for everyone's protection. A little bit of liberty just lost because he doesnt have the knowledge, you on the other hand do.

This is a liberty lost. I can not fly unless I submit to harassment.

You can not argue that. You still havent touched on the no fly list to explain it away as not being a loss of freedom. I admire you defending the country, you are just wrong.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

I stepped in where the comments were made that no freedoms have been lost.

I go back to my original statement.

Just mentioning TSA is more then adequate.

And as I said your demon is perceived. Going through security is a pain in the ass no doubt but it is the sacrifice we make when WE CHOOSE to fly.

I'm not saying they may not abuse their power as we've all witnessed the ridiculous search of babies and grandma but that does not equate to lost freedoms imo.

LOL You so remind me of my youngest son, who has never experienced flying without TSA.

He said to me, whats the big deal dad, its for everyone's protection. A little bit of liberty just lost because he doesnt have the knowledge, you on the other hand do.

This is a liberty lost. I can not fly unless I submit to harassment.

You can not argue that. You still havent touched on the no fly list to explain it away as not being a loss of freedom. I admire you defending the country, you are just wrong.

I still do Not see the freedom you claim you have lost. Flying is a choice not a right. As far as the list goes I have no problem with them keeping bad people off of planes. Do you want to sit next to a known terrorist on a plane just to avoid a list?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

WHAT FREEDOMS HAVE YOU LOST???????

Everyone likes to ramble on about freedom but no one EVER lists personal freedoms lost. Just a bunch of perceived what if losses.

At any time the government can restrict movement, At any time you can be detained and held in detention without a trial if the government thinks you are suspicious. At any time the government can kill you if you are suspected of being a terrorist. At any time the government can listen to my private phone conversation. At any time the government can ban or restrict access to anything it does not like The government is not held accountable for it's actions.

A whole lot of cans and coulds but no actual lost freedoms. Just perceived boogymen.

I could shoot someone in the face at any moment. Doesn't mean I ever would.

No" cans" because it has happened.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

And as I said your demon is perceived. Going through security is a pain in the ass no doubt but it is the sacrifice we make when WE CHOOSE to fly.

I'm not saying they may not abuse their power as we've all witnessed the ridiculous search of babies and grandma but that does not equate to lost freedoms imo.

LOL You so remind me of my youngest son, who has never experienced flying without TSA.

He said to me, whats the big deal dad, its for everyone's protection. A little bit of liberty just lost because he doesnt have the knowledge, you on the other hand do.

This is a liberty lost. I can not fly unless I submit to harassment.

You can not argue that. You still havent touched on the no fly list to explain it away as not being a loss of freedom. I admire you defending the country, you are just wrong.

I still do Not see the freedom you claim you have lost. Flying is a choice not a right. As far as the list goes I have no problem with them keeping bad people off of planes. Do you want to sit next to a known terrorist on a plane just to avoid a list?

If you can't see the dumbing down effect then you will never understand what full auto or I am talking about. What is looked now as invasion of privacy with be seen in the future as the norm. Then they start peeling away another layer of freedoms until you have none at all because the guberment is here to help save me from myself. **** THE BASTARDS.

 

[Katzndogz]

I stepped in where the comments were made that no freedoms have been lost.

I go back to my original statement.

Just mentioning TSA is more then adequate.

And as I said your demon is perceived. Going through security is a pain in the ass no doubt but it is the sacrifice we make when WE CHOOSE to fly.

I'm not saying they may not abuse their power as we've all witnessed the ridiculous search of babies and grandma but that does not equate to lost freedoms imo.

LOL You so remind me of my youngest son, who has never experienced flying without TSA.

He said to me, whats the big deal dad, its for everyone's protection. A little bit of liberty just lost because he doesnt have the knowledge, you on the other hand do.

This is a liberty lost. I can not fly unless I submit to harassment.

You can not argue that. You still havent touched on the no fly list to explain it away as not being a loss of freedom. I admire you defending the country, you are just wrong.

So tell us why being searched is loss of an essential liberty? I object to the searches because they seem designed more to harass than achieve any objective. They also have pollicies of passing through those who might pose the most danger. They do not represent the loss of any essential liberty.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

And as I said your demon is perceived. Going through security is a pain in the ass no doubt but it is the sacrifice we make when WE CHOOSE to fly.

I'm not saying they may not abuse their power as we've all witnessed the ridiculous search of babies and grandma but that does not equate to lost freedoms imo.

LOL You so remind me of my youngest son, who has never experienced flying without TSA.

He said to me, whats the big deal dad, its for everyone's protection. A little bit of liberty just lost because he doesnt have the knowledge, you on the other hand do.

This is a liberty lost. I can not fly unless I submit to harassment.

You can not argue that. You still havent touched on the no fly list to explain it away as not being a loss of freedom. I admire you defending the country, you are just wrong.

So tell us why being searched is loss of an essential liberty? I object to the searches because they seem designed more to harass than achieve any objective. They also have pollicies of passing through those who might pose the most danger. They do not represent the loss of any essential liberty.

It's dumbing down people what is done now would have never been accepted 40 or 50 years ago. Then it will allow the gunberment to peel away another layer. of freedoms.

 

[Full-Auto]

And as I said your demon is perceived. Going through security is a pain in the ass no doubt but it is the sacrifice we make when WE CHOOSE to fly.

I'm not saying they may not abuse their power as we've all witnessed the ridiculous search of babies and grandma but that does not equate to lost freedoms imo.

LOL You so remind me of my youngest son, who has never experienced flying without TSA.

He said to me, whats the big deal dad, its for everyone's protection. A little bit of liberty just lost because he doesnt have the knowledge, you on the other hand do.

This is a liberty lost. I can not fly unless I submit to harassment.

You can not argue that. You still havent touched on the no fly list to explain it away as not being a loss of freedom. I admire you defending the country, you are just wrong.

I still do Not see the freedom you claim you have lost. Flying is a choice not a right. As far as the list goes I have no problem with them keeping bad people off of planes. Do you want to sit next to a known terrorist on a plane just to avoid a list?

THIS IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF LOST LIBERTY.

I must now be subjected to behaviours reserved for criminals. Instead of attacking the problem at the source, you are fine with being searched. Because all you wanted to do was travel. **** with like minded people you should be subjected to vigorous cavity searches. You dont lose liberty you have a choice.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

LOL You so remind me of my youngest son, who has never experienced flying without TSA.

He said to me, whats the big deal dad, its for everyone's protection. A little bit of liberty just lost because he doesnt have the knowledge, you on the other hand do.

This is a liberty lost. I can not fly unless I submit to harassment.

You can not argue that. You still havent touched on the no fly list to explain it away as not being a loss of freedom. I admire you defending the country, you are just wrong.

So tell us why being searched is loss of an essential liberty? I object to the searches because they seem designed more to harass than achieve any objective. They also have pollicies of passing through those who might pose the most danger. They do not represent the loss of any essential liberty.

It's dumbing down people what is done now would have never been accepted 40 or 50 years ago. Then it will allow the gunberment to peel away another layer. of freedoms.

I get and respect that you fear future erosion of our freedoms. I really do but the current steps being undertaken are essential if our govt is to perform its one true mandate. To protect Americans from every evil it can. But if the American people are dilligent and draw the line in the sand and say "This far, and no farther!" we should be fine. We have the power to control our govt but we don't exercise it because were too obsessed with the menutia of uncommon ideologies.

 

[Full-Auto]

So tell us why being searched is loss of an essential liberty? I object to the searches because they seem designed more to harass than achieve any objective. They also have pollicies of passing through those who might pose the most danger. They do not represent the loss of any essential liberty.

It's dumbing down people what is done now would have never been accepted 40 or 50 years ago. Then it will allow the gunberment to peel away another layer. of freedoms.

I get and respect that you fear future erosion of our freedoms. I really do but the current steps being undertaken are essential if our govt is to perform its one true mandate. To protect Americans from every evil it can. But if the American people are dilligent and draw the line in the sand and say "This far, and no farther!" we should be fine. We have the power to control our govt but we don't exercise it because were too obsessed with the menutia of uncommon ideologies.

But you remain content with being treated as a criminal instead of addressing the flaws in the system.

You are the very essence of what the quote of liberty is about.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

LOL You so remind me of my youngest son, who has never experienced flying without TSA.

He said to me, whats the big deal dad, its for everyone's protection. A little bit of liberty just lost because he doesnt have the knowledge, you on the other hand do.

This is a liberty lost. I can not fly unless I submit to harassment.

You can not argue that. You still havent touched on the no fly list to explain it away as not being a loss of freedom. I admire you defending the country, you are just wrong.

I still do Not see the freedom you claim you have lost. Flying is a choice not a right. As far as the list goes I have no problem with them keeping bad people off of planes. Do you want to sit next to a known terrorist on a plane just to avoid a list?

THIS IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF LOST LIBERTY.

I must now be subjected to behaviours reserved for criminals. Instead of attacking the problem at the source, you are fine with being searched. Because all you wanted to do was travel. **** with like minded people you should be subjected to vigorous cavity searches. You dont lose liberty you have a choice.

I would much prefer to use profiling but our political correctness has replaced common sense. As it stands this is our only recourse.

 

[Full-Auto]

I still do Not see the freedom you claim you have lost. Flying is a choice not a right. As far as the list goes I have no problem with them keeping bad people off of planes. Do you want to sit next to a known terrorist on a plane just to avoid a list?

THIS IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF LOST LIBERTY.

I must now be subjected to behaviours reserved for criminals. Instead of attacking the problem at the source, you are fine with being searched. Because all you wanted to do was travel. **** with like minded people you should be subjected to vigorous cavity searches. You dont lose liberty you have a choice.

I would much prefer to use profiling but our political correctness has replaced common sense. As it stands this is our only recourse.

It is not the only recourse, it is however the most convenient one. God help us if we actually secured the borders and kept track of overstayed visas

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

It's dumbing down people what is done now would have never been accepted 40 or 50 years ago. Then it will allow the gunberment to peel away another layer. of freedoms.

I get and respect that you fear future erosion of our freedoms. I really do but the current steps being undertaken are essential if our govt is to perform its one true mandate. To protect Americans from every evil it can. But if the American people are dilligent and draw the line in the sand and say "This far, and no farther!" we should be fine. We have the power to control our govt but we don't exercise it because were too obsessed with the menutia of uncommon ideologies.

But you remain content with being treated as a criminal instead of addressing the flaws in the system.

You are the very essence of what the quote of liberty is about.

I disagree with your last comment. Were I in control many perceived abuses would be eliminated for a more direct approach to fighting our enemies. But I would be quickly shunned for being a "racist" or other such nonsense.

When the first gulf war started I was one of the first in line to join but unfortunately they no longer took ex convicts. My past was my shame and my hopes to "give back" were and are unfulfilled. Because of my stupidity my voice and opinions are not allowed in the process beyond my one vote.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

A whole lot of cans and coulds but no actual lost freedoms. Just perceived boogymen.

I could shoot someone in the face at any moment. Doesn't mean I ever would.

Being trteated as a criminal to board a plane is not perception.

Maybe you would like to be on the no fly list and not have been convicted of any crime.

I have been to jail as well as prison and being searched before getting on a plane is nothing like that I assure you. Besides as I said you have a choice.

You were sent to jail and prison for a reason, people boarding a plane have not been convicted of any crime why should they be treated as criminals?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Being trteated as a criminal to board a plane is not perception.

Maybe you would like to be on the no fly list and not have been convicted of any crime.

I have been to jail as well as prison and being searched before getting on a plane is nothing like that I assure you. Besides as I said you have a choice.

You were sent to jail and prison for a reason, people boarding a plane have not been convicted of any crime why should they be treated as criminals?

I think you missed the point. I've actually experienced a loss of rights and freedoms. Every right in fact. What you guys are describing is trivial. Once you've experienced the depravity of the true loss of freedom you gain a new perspective on everything.

Edit: I'm not claiming to be special or anything I'm just saying I have a unique perspective on what constitutes freedom. Then of course you could compare are so called losses to nearly any other country on the earth and consider how truly lucky we were to have been born here. Many people take their freedom for granted and don't even know it.

 

[JoeB131]

Before you make your mind up between these two top tier candidates please read the quote below...

"Those who would give up ESSENTIAL Liberty for a little TEMPORARY Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"(BF).

Paul top tier candidate? Lol, a little wishful thinking on your part there.

Secondly what freedoms have you lost?

Just the mention of TSA should be adequate for an answer.

Not really. Being able to fly on an airplane isn't a freedom, it's a service.

It's like saying that if a resturant requires you to wear shoes and a shirt, they are limiting your freedom.

Horsecrap. You are using their service and part of that is to make sure you aren't carrying a bomb.

Now, I think there are a lot of problems with the TSA. The political correctness (have to frisk Granny the same way your frisk Abdul.) the going nuts whenever a terrorist comes up with some obscure plan that didn't even work. I think it was thrown together in a hurry and the first thing they saw it as was a jobs program.

But please don't whine about your "freedom" being infringed upon.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I have been to jail as well as prison and being searched before getting on a plane is nothing like that I assure you. Besides as I said you have a choice.

You were sent to jail and prison for a reason, people boarding a plane have not been convicted of any crime why should they be treated as criminals?

I think you missed the point. I've actually experienced a loss of rights and freedoms. Every right in fact. What you guys are describing is trivial. Once you've experienced the depravity of the true loss of freedom you gain a new perspective on everything.

Edit: I'm not claiming to be special or anything I'm just saying I have a unique perspective on what constitutes freedom. Then of course you could compare are so called losses to nearly any other country on the earth and consider how truly lucky we were to have been born here. Many people take their freedom for granted and don't even know it.

and you lost your freedom for a reason was it in entrapment? something you did with intent? a false accusation? There was a reason unlike people who are flying on a plane.