German home schooling family seeks asylum in U.S.

[Cecilie1200]

It wasn't so much that. They were totally against it. I wish I had kept the original letter. Of course, statistics show that homeschooled kids do better both academically and socially that public schooled kids. Funny how that happens.

OF COURSE they're totally against it. Homeschooling is their competition, the Target to their WalMart, the Bloomingdale's to their Macy's, the Burger King to their McDonald's.

 

[Skull Pilot]

They can teach their religious stuff if they want to, provided that the kids also get a regular education. What would be you response of some diehard marxists who dont send their children to public schools since they teach capitalism there?

In the US at least, there are required courses that home schooler's must complete. Ans I am willing to be that even in Germany the home schooled kids do better.

And I don't care if the parents teach Marxism to their kids and neither should you. It's none of my business.

Statictics comparing US homeschoolers with US public schoolers have little to no impact on a case in Germany either. Besides, show me the statistic and I will show you the confounders, I doubt for example, that things like migrational background, economic situation and parental education are the same between home schoolers and public schoolers.

Since these parents are moving to the US, the US statistics seem relevant no?

And you say you can produce "confounders" to the studies I have cited but you have yet to do so.

And is it your assertion that because parent who home school their kids are better educated or better off economically, that home schooling is somehow a bad thing? What does it matter? All that matters are the results and clearly home schooled children have significant advantages as compared to their public school counterparts.

 

[strollingbones]

Yeah? And how do you know that? Do you live in East Tennessee? Any part of Tennessee? Know any homeschoolers, Tennessee or otherwise? Even driven THROUGH Tennessee?

Seems to me that anyone who doesn't understand the simple concept of punctuation should shut the hell up regarding "ignorance", but perhaps that's just me.

lol@u and the tennessee questions...i live on the border of tennessee...happy?

i understand the concept of punctuation....i simply opt not to use it....

ee cummings perhaps might come to mind....

as for my stance on home schooling....i see and hear the products of this system daily.....

my favorite quote from a home school pupil....."i am home learned" face it when you have parents with GED's teaching kids...it does not make for a good system...i see it basically as a system used to avoid putting kids in public schools due to the parents fears...do you really think all parents are capable of teaching their kids? people complain about public school teachers teaching out of their fields....what does that say about parents teaching their kids....and as far as placement tests....i can only speak for this area but most kids who are home schooled...take test that are in reality grades lower than where they should be...i think a 12 year old being tested at a 5th grade level is hard a success story...if you want home schooling then there should be standards that are uniform...why do you assume all parents are capable of giving their kids a good solid education?

 

[strollingbones]

Which then brings us to the point that she is not such a stellar example of brilliance and education that she needs to be denigrating anyone else.

lol you think the persona one reflects on here is the true person.....true ignorance does abound

how you ever been to tennessee?

 

[strollingbones]

Poor reading skills hamper Tennessee economy
Editorial, Kingsport Times-News January 3, 2006

If you can read this, count yourself among a minority of Tennesseans. A new study shows slightly more than half of Tennessee adults - 53 percent - struggle with even the most basic reading skills. The study, conducted by the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), shows the nation at large is only marginally better off, with 50 percent of those surveyed failing to meet basic levels of literacy

Poor reading skills hamper Tennessee economy

i wonder how many parents who are home schooling fall into that 50%...i have no objection to qualified parents teaching their children but being a parent does not make you a teacher...

 

[strollingbones]

It wasn't so much that. They were totally against it. I wish I had kept the original letter. Of course, statistics show that homeschooled kids do better both academically and socially that public schooled kids. Funny how that happens.

link please

 

[Skull Pilot]

then tell me why do children who are home schooled outperform those that are products of public schools?

HSLDA | Academic Statistics on Homeschooling

In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile. i

Another important finding of Strengths of Their Own was that the race of the student does not make any difference. There was no significant difference between minority and white homeschooled students. For example, in grades K-12, both white and minority students scored, on the average, in the 87th percentile. In math, whites scored in the 82nd percentile while minorities scored in the 77th percentile. In the public schools, however, there is a sharp contrast. White public school eighth grade students, nationally scored the 58th percentile in math and the 57th percentile in reading. Black eighth gr[ade students, on the other hand, scored on the average at the 24th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading. Hispanics scored at the 29th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading.

First-Year College Performance: A Study of Home School Graduates and Traditional School Graduates | Journal of College Admission | Find Articles at BNET



Much of the existing research on academic performance centers on K-12, home school students and many of these studies show that home school children outperform their public school peers on several national standardized exams), including the Stanford Achievement Test and the Iowa Tests of Basic Skills, and at nearly all grade levels (Rakestraw 1987, Frost 1987, Wanes 1990, Ray 1990, Rudner 1999).

Three empirical studies, specifically focused on the first-year academic performance of the home school college student (Galloway 1995, Gray 1998, Jcnkins 1998), attempted to remedy higher education and policy makers' lack of knowledge. Galloway (1995) found home school graduates outperformed their conventional private school peers on the ACT English subtest. Jenkins (1998) found that full- and part-time community college home school students' average first-year grade point averages were higher than non-home school graduates. Jenkins also found that the home school student's out-performed their peers in reading and mathematics on the Texas Academic Skills Program.

but those home schoolers are ignorant.

link please

see my previous post for link

It seems to me the fact that 50% of Tennesseans don't read well is more an excoriation of the public school system than home schoolers.

 

[editec]

They can teach their religious stuff if they want to, provided that the kids also get a regular education. What would be you response of some diehard marxists who dont send their children to public schools since they teach capitalism there?

It is impossible to teach Marxism without also insuring that the students first understand they history of how capitalism developed.

But if your point was that society depends on people having enough communality of understanding to work together (and I think that was your point) then I completely agree with you.

That is one of the reasons I have spent the last 12 years creating a very small part of that ONLINE educational system that I think our society desperately needs to develop before we go bankrupt

HOMESCHOOLERS need material and they need guidance, too.

Such a K-12 website could provide them with that edcuational content.

The return on investment would be extraordinary, too.

FAR FAR FAR better than building even one more elementary school.

 

[mightypeon]

I thnk I should have put myself a bit clearer:

A) In that particular case (which has been reported in Germany quite a bit) the thing was about heavily religiously motivated homeschoolers whose children would NOT get what goes as standart academic instruction (In Europe at least). Standart academic instruction does include f.e. evolution.


B) I know of several cases where homeschooling in Germany was tolerated, provided they did take required exams. I am not a fan of that since these children may be lacking in the many things learned in school which are not a part of the curriculum (mainly social skills), but I would not support the criminalisation of such practices.

C) Homeschooling in America is established, in Germany it is not. The quality of German homschooling is quite likely below the quality of the American counterpart, there is less support, less networks and propably less of everything that makes homeschooling apperantly run well in the US. From that view I would see it as very positive if a "wants to homeschool" family moves to America, since the already mentioned contact with other homeschoolers will likely have a postive effect on the childrens education.

 

[Cecilie1200]

lol@u and the tennessee questions...i live on the border of tennessee...happy?

Couldn't personally care less, but it doesn't answer the main thrust of the questions, no.

i understand the concept of punctuation....i simply opt not to use it....

Which brings us to my main point: someone who 1) exhibits very little education and intelligence should shut their flapping gob on any inclination to criticize others in those areas, and 2) now admits that he considers making use of basic education in everyday situations should DEFINITELY shut the hell up on the subject of other people's education.

ee cummings perhaps might come to mind....

You are no ee cummings. Writing everything in iambic pentameter wouldn't make you William Shakespeare, either, although it at least wouldn't make you look like an illiterate boob the way your current posts do.

as for my stance on home schooling....i see and hear the products of this system daily.....

Wow. We're back to the part where you have not a single leg to stand on while you attempt to denigrate the intelligence of others. The more you talk, the BETTER you make homeschooling sound, just by comparison.

my favorite quote from a home school pupil....."i am home learned" face it when you have parents with GED's teaching kids...it does not make for a good system...i see it basically as a system used to avoid putting kids in public schools due to the parents fears...do you really think all parents are capable of teaching their kids? people complain about public school teachers teaching out of their fields....what does that say about parents teaching their kids....and as far as placement tests....i can only speak for this area but most kids who are home schooled...take test that are in reality grades lower than where they should be...i think a 12 year old being tested at a 5th grade level is hard a success story...if you want home schooling then there should be standards that are uniform...why do you assume all parents are capable of giving their kids a good solid education?

No, I don't think all parents can educate their children. I think YOU, for example, should be prevented by law from even HAVING any children, much less attempting to teach them anything.

Most people, though, can probably manage to teach their children how to speak in complete, simple sentences and to not be arrogant and pretentious about their illiteracy in an attempt to justify it.

The real question is, what makes me think public schools AREN'T capable of giving kids a good, solid education? The answer, of course, is your posts.

 

[Cecilie1200]

lol you think the persona one reflects on here is the true person.....true ignorance does abound

how you ever been to tennessee?

My family originates in the Tennessee/Kentucky area, and I still have many relatives who live there.

FYI, the only "true ignorance" here is you thinking that the barely readable, uneducated manner in which you present yourself is not a reflection of you.

 

[mightypeon]

see my previous post for link

It seems to me the fact that 50% of Tennesseans don't read well is more an excoriation of the public school system than home schoolers.

Only thing that strikes me as a bit odd is that none of the studies listed seem to be endnotes are peer reviewed.

 

[Ravi]

So let me see if I've got this right. These parents don't want their children to learn about evolution so they decided to homeschool them, and Germany compelled them to send their kids to public school. These parents are now illegal immigrants in East Tenn and have been welcomed with open arms by the morons that live in that part of the country.

There is some heavy irony happening here.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Only thing that strikes me as a bit odd is that none of the studies listed seem to be endnotes are peer reviewed.

what do you need peer review for?

You have the HSLDA data and you have state and local department of education data on the performance of home schooled kids.

Funny how Tennesee is being criticized when:HSLDA | Academic Statistics on Homeschooling

II. State Department of Education Statistics on Homeschoolers

Several state departments of education or local school districts have also gathered statistics on the academic progress of homeschooled children.

Tennessee
In the spring of 1987, the Tennessee Department of Education found that homeschooled children in 2nd grade, on the average, scored in the 93rd percentile while their public school counterparts, on the average, scored in the 62nd percentile on the Stanford Achievement Test. Homeschool children in third grade scored, on the average, in the 90th percentile in reading on another standardized test, and the public school students scored in the 78 percentile. In math, the third grade homeschooled children scored, on the average, in the 87th percentile, while their public school counterparts scored in the 80th percentile. In eighth grade, the homeschooled students scored, on the average, in the 87th percentile in reading and in 71st percentile in math while their public school counterparts scored in the 75th percentile in reading and the 69th percentile in math. xix

Alaska and Oregon
Similarly, in 1986, the State Department of Education in Alaska which had surveyed homeschooled children's test results every other year since 1981, found homeschooled children to be scoring approximately 16 percentage points higher, on the average, than the children of the same grades in conventional schools. In Oregon, the State Department of Education compiled test score statistics for 1,658 homeschooled children in 1988 and found that 51 percent of the children scored above the 71st percentile and 73 percent scored above the 51st percentile.

North Carolina
In North Carolina, the Division of Non-Public Education compiled test results of 2,144 homeschool students in grades K-12. Of the 1,061 homeschool students taking the California Achievement Test, they scored, on the average, at the 73rd percentile on the total battery of tests: 80th percentile in reading, 72nd percentile in language, and the 71st percentile in math.

The 755 homeschool students who took the Iowa Test of Basic Skills scored at the 80th percentile in the total battery of tests: 81st percentile in reading, 77th percentile in language, and 77th percentile in math. The remaining students who took the Stanford scored, on the average, in the 73rd percentile in the whole battery. xx

Arkansas
In Arkansas, for the 1987-88 school term, homeschool children, on the average, scored in 75% on the Metropolitan Achievement Test 6. They out-scored public school children in every subject (Reading, Math, Language, Science, and Social Studies) and at every grade level. For example, at the 10th grade level public school children scored an average of 53rd percentile in social studies, while homeschool children scored at the 73rd percentile. In science, an area in which homeschoolers are often criticized for lack of facilities, the homeschoolers scored, on the average, 85th percentile in fourth grade, 73rd percentile in seventh grade, and 65th percentile in tenth grade. The public school students, on the other hand, scored much lower in science: 66th percentile in fourth grade, 62nd percentile in seventh, and 53rd percentile in tenth. xxi

Arizona
According to the Arizona State Department of Education, 1,123 homeschooled children in grades 1-9, on the average, scored above grade level in reading, language arts, and math on standardized tests for the 1988-89 school year. Four grades tested were a full grade level ahead. xxii

Nebraska
In Nebraska, out of 259 homeschooled children who returned to public or non-public schools, 134 of them were automatically placed in their grade level according to their age without testing. Of the remaining who were given entrance tests, 33 were above grade level, 43 were at grade level, and 29 were below grade level. Approximately 88 percent of the returning students were at or above grade level after being homeschooled for a period of time. This survey was the result of the responses of 429 accredited schools. xxiii

III. Local School District Statistics on Homeschooling

1. In 1988, 30 homeschooled children in Albuquerque, New Mexico, participated in the state-mandated testing program (Comprehensive Test of Basic Skills) and scored on the average in the 83rd percentile for 3rd grade, the 85th percentile for 5th grade, and the 89th percentile for 8th grade. This group of homeschoolers scored 20 to 25 percentile points higher than the local public school students taking the CTBS in 1987. xxiv

2. In a 1980 study in Los Angeles, homeschooled students scored higher on standardized tests than children in the Los Angeles public schools. xxv

3. In South Carolina, the Greenville County School District stated, "Kids taught at home last year outscored those in public schools on basic skills tests." In that county, 57 out of 61 homeschooled students "met or exceeded the state's minimum performance standard on the reading test" of the Comprehensive Test of Basic Skills. The homeschool students' passing rate was 93.4 while the public school counterparts passing rate was 83.9 percent. Furthermore, in math, the homeschooled students passing rate was 87.9 percent compared to the public school students' passing rate of 82.1 percent. xxvi

4. In Nevada, according to Washoe County School District's data, homeschooled students scored higher than their public school counterparts in first through seventh grade. All children were tested with the Stanford Achievement Test, and homeschoolers consistently scored higher in reading, vocabulary, reading comprehension, math concepts, math comprehension, math and math concepts and application.

The most extreme gap between the public school children and the homeschooled children was in the area of vocabulary. For example, fourth graders in public school scored in the 49th percentile while the homeschooled fourth graders scored in the 80th percentile.

Conclusion

These statistics point to one conclusion: homeschooling works. Even many of the State Departments of Education, which are generally biased toward the public school system, cannot argue with these facts. Not only does homeschooling work, but it works without the myriad of state controls and accreditation standards imposed on the public schools.





Seems to me the federal and state dept. of educations agree that home schooled kids do better than their publicly educated counterparts. If you want peer review, isn't the sate and federal departments of education the authority on student performance?

What do you want, a bunch of public school teachers saying that they can't teach as well as a parent? That will never happen even if as studies such as the above have proven it to be true.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

so east tennessee welcomes them....lol...oddly enough a great deal of ignorance exists in east tennessee and is passed on by home schoolers.

Provide statistics. From what I have seen the scores for Home school versus public school all HUGELY favor homeschool.

 

[mightypeon]

Why do I need peer review? Concerning statistic about home schoolers, I trust a "Home schooling legal defense association" about as much as I trust Greenpeace concerning ecological statistics. Or trust Marlboro with statistics about cancer risks caused by smoking.

If someone with a clear agenda publishes a statistic, it is good and fine, they of course want to get data proving their points. But I would only trust these statistics if they have been viewed as sound by independent (peer review) observers.

I already checked the link you provided, but they only list their results/findings without any detailed confirmation about the cohorts they choose etc.

If I choose my cohorts in a "smart" way, I could easily create statistics about nearly everything.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Why do I need peer review? Concerning statistic about home schoolers, I trust a "Home schooling legal defense association" about as much as I trust Greenpeace concerning ecological statistics. Or trust Marlboro with statistics about cancer risks caused by smoking.

If someone with a clear agenda publishes a statistic, it is good and fine, they of course want to get data proving their points. But I would only trust these statistics if they have been viewed as sound by independent (peer review) observers.

I already checked the link you provided, but they only list their results/findings without any detailed confirmation about the cohorts they choose etc.

If I choose my cohorts in a "smart" way, I could easily create statistics about nearly everything.

so state and federal dept of education stats aren't good enough for you.

Why don't you provide some support for your statements if you believe the study I cited is somehow faulty.

Or is it just that you can't believe that a parent can do a much better job of teaching his or her child than the state?

 

[chloe]

My oldest nephew was homeschooled, and the state constantly harassed my sister trying to presure her to put him back in public school, but his grades were substantially better when he was homeschooled. The public school was dangerous where they live, lots of gang fights & drugs. I don't think they should outlaw it because that is unconstitutional, Americans should have the choice.

 

[mightypeon]

If I would actually have the statistics you are citing (the entire statistics, not the results) we could talk. There is no significant amount of homeschooling in Germany, therefore there arent statistics. Does it strike you as a bit strange, that while the HSLDA data cites homschoolers as in the 80-90, the gouverment data cites them as 60-70? where does this 20% difference come from? What was the actual age? Was the sample size big enough? What was the sex distribution? And most importantly, what was the generell education of the parents?


I do believe that well educated and motivated parents can do a better job at teaching than (in some cases not very well educated and motivated) public school teachers. However the children of well educated parents tend to do significantly better in school anyway (Any PISA statistic easily proves this, effect strongest in Germany weakest in Finland, USA is in between). I also do not believe that the parents in question were "well educated".

I would also believe that someone who considers homeschooling takes education very seriously. The children of parents who take education seriously do well in school in generell. East Germany f.e. has a fairly large population of Vietnamese immigrants. Although the actual migrants had a fairly low education (in western standarts) when they came, 89% of their children visit the highest tier of the three tiered German High school system. These Vietnamese Immigrant children also outclass their German classmates about as much as homeschoolers outclass public schoolers according to the HSLDA data. That they do so inspite of an often poor economic situation is even more amazing. Does this mean that Vietnamese Childs are smarter then Germans?
Or does the fact the East Asians care much more about education has something to do with it?

My bottomline is that the homeschooling effect is attributable to the fact that most homeschooling parents genuinly care about their childrens education. This is not the case for the parents of public schoolers (of course many of them genuinly care too, but not all, the parents who do not care degrade the notes of the children, leading to the difference).

 

[mightypeon]

Or, let me ask you back:

Do you believe that children with parents that genuinly care about their education would do better than their compatriots in a public school too?