Gaza Economy Collapsing

[flacaltenn]

As far as this topic goes -- PFT has no urgency to see it actually solved. If PFT WANTED to have a prosperous unblocked Gaza today -- there'd be more honesty about who's in charge there now..

I'm out -- there's no help for Gaza ANYWHERE in this thread. We need some folks that really care about wasting another Palestinian generation and wants solutions TODAY..

 

[P F Tinmore]

As far as this topic goes -- PFT has no urgency to see it actually solved. If PFT WANTED to have a prosperous unblocked Gaza today -- there'd be more honesty about who's in charge there now..

I'm out -- there's no help for Gaza ANYWHERE in this thread. We need some folks that really care about wasting another Palestinian generation and wants solutions TODAY..

The best thing for Gaza, and the West Bank too, would be new elections. Neither Fatah or Hamas have a lot of political support. There are leaders who are in parties that do not have military wings. That should take a lot of the violence out of the equation.

Abbas needs to step down and allow the constitutional procedures to take place for new elections.

 

[SAYIT]

I don't see where Hamas's election changed the dynamics of the agreement with Israel. Did Hamas reject any of the agreement?

Hamas rejected all and any peaceful solutions.

Indeed, the Palestinians have been seeking peace based on law and justice...

That's what you claim ... not what Hamas's Covenant says...

Hamas is hardly a mention in Palestinian discourse. Israel gives them too much credit.

Again you pretend to have missed the memo. Hamas, despite (or because of) their Covenant is not only mentioned in Pali discourse, they were duly elected to govern.

That Covenant includes the rejection of "Initiatives, proposals and international conferences" as a means of settling the conflict peacefully, insisting instead "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."

 

[SAYIT]

As far as this topic goes -- PFT has no urgency to see it actually solved. If PFT WANTED to have a prosperous unblocked Gaza today -- there'd be more honesty about who's in charge there now..

I'm out -- there's no help for Gaza ANYWHERE in this thread. We need some folks that really care about wasting another Palestinian generation and wants solutions TODAY..

The best thing for Gaza, and the West Bank too, would be new elections. Neither Fatah or Hamas have a lot of political support. There are leaders who are in parties that do not have military wings. That should take a lot of the violence out of the equation.

Abbas needs to step down and allow the constitutional procedures to take place for new elections.

Regrettably that would not dissolve the military wings nor end Pali violence. Hamas and the other vicious gangs would continue to exist (and new ones would be founded) and act as their violent predecessors have for generations.

Unless and until Palestinians accept the idea of peace with their Jewish neighbors nothing, and I mean nothing, will change.

 

[Phoenall]

http://www.unsco.org/Documents/Key/AMA.pdf

Crossing Points
The parties have agreed that:
The passages will operate continuously. On an urgent basis, Israel will permit the export
of all agricultural products from Gaza during this 2005 harvest season.
The new and additional scanner will be installed and fully operational by December 31.
At that time, the number of export trucks per day to be processed through Karni will
reach 150, and 400 by end-2006. A common management system will be adopted by both
parties.
In addition to the number of trucks above, Israel will permit export of agricultural
produce from Gaza and will facilitate its speedy exit and onward movement so that
quality and freshness can be maintained. Israel will ensure the continued opportunity to
export.


Link between Gaza and the West Bank
Israel will allow the passage of convoys to facilitate the movements of goods and
persons. Specifically:
- Establish bus convoys by December 15.
- Establish truck convoys by January 15.
- Work out detailed implementation arrangements in a bilateral committee of the GoI and
PA with participation as needed from the Quartet team and the USSC.
It is understood that security is a prime and continuing concern for Israel and that
appropriate arrangements to ensure security will be adopted.



Gaza Seaport
3
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it
will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite
committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its
opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.


Airport
The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues
of security arrangements, construction, and operation.


This agreement DIED in January 2006 -- when the Palis decided to activate Hamas as a political entity and destroy the authority of the PA to further negotiate these deals..

The PA governed Gaza until June of 2007.

The PA still govern gaza today, as that is what hamas were elected to by the people of gaza and the west bank.

 

[Phoenall]

http://www.unsco.org/Documents/Key/AMA.pdf

Crossing Points
The parties have agreed that:
The passages will operate continuously. On an urgent basis, Israel will permit the export
of all agricultural products from Gaza during this 2005 harvest season.
The new and additional scanner will be installed and fully operational by December 31.
At that time, the number of export trucks per day to be processed through Karni will
reach 150, and 400 by end-2006. A common management system will be adopted by both
parties.
In addition to the number of trucks above, Israel will permit export of agricultural
produce from Gaza and will facilitate its speedy exit and onward movement so that
quality and freshness can be maintained. Israel will ensure the continued opportunity to
export.


Link between Gaza and the West Bank
Israel will allow the passage of convoys to facilitate the movements of goods and
persons. Specifically:
- Establish bus convoys by December 15.
- Establish truck convoys by January 15.
- Work out detailed implementation arrangements in a bilateral committee of the GoI and
PA with participation as needed from the Quartet team and the USSC.
It is understood that security is a prime and continuing concern for Israel and that
appropriate arrangements to ensure security will be adopted.



Gaza Seaport
3
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it
will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite
committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its
opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.


Airport
The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues
of security arrangements, construction, and operation.


This agreement DIED in January 2006 -- when the Palis decided to activate Hamas as a political entity and destroy the authority of the PA to further negotiate these deals..

The PA governed Gaza until June of 2007.

It did not function very well at all after about March of 2006.. You had Fatah refusing to take orders from newly elected Hamas leaders.. And building of militias. This is NOT an environment where Israel and the UN had ANY CHANCE of continuing to negotiate the PROMISING agreement that I posted above.. Again -- the Palis were left with an UN-UNIFIED govt and lack of leadership... Peace is NOT possible if you have no leaders to negotiate with...


And it IS linked BTW...

You had Fatah refusing to take orders from newly elected Hamas leaders..​

You can't blame Hamas if Fatah refused to recognize the election results.

Proving that there can never be fair elections in Palestine, leading to the obvious that the Palestinians need to be contained and sterilised before they infest the world.

 

[Phoenall]

http://www.unsco.org/Documents/Key/AMA.pdf

Crossing Points
The parties have agreed that:
The passages will operate continuously. On an urgent basis, Israel will permit the export
of all agricultural products from Gaza during this 2005 harvest season.
The new and additional scanner will be installed and fully operational by December 31.
At that time, the number of export trucks per day to be processed through Karni will
reach 150, and 400 by end-2006. A common management system will be adopted by both
parties.
In addition to the number of trucks above, Israel will permit export of agricultural
produce from Gaza and will facilitate its speedy exit and onward movement so that
quality and freshness can be maintained. Israel will ensure the continued opportunity to
export.


Link between Gaza and the West Bank
Israel will allow the passage of convoys to facilitate the movements of goods and
persons. Specifically:
- Establish bus convoys by December 15.
- Establish truck convoys by January 15.
- Work out detailed implementation arrangements in a bilateral committee of the GoI and
PA with participation as needed from the Quartet team and the USSC.
It is understood that security is a prime and continuing concern for Israel and that
appropriate arrangements to ensure security will be adopted.



Gaza Seaport
3
Construction of a seaport can commence. The GoI will undertake to assure donors that it
will not interfere with operation of the port. The parties will establish a U.S.-led tripartite
committee to develop security and other relevant arrangements for the port prior to its
opening. The 3rd party model to be used at Rafah will provide the basis for this work.


Airport
The parties agree on the importance of the airport. Discussions will continue on the issues
of security arrangements, construction, and operation.


This agreement DIED in January 2006 -- when the Palis decided to activate Hamas as a political entity and destroy the authority of the PA to further negotiate these deals..

The PA governed Gaza until June of 2007.

It did not function very well at all after about March of 2006.. You had Fatah refusing to take orders from newly elected Hamas leaders.. And building of militias. This is NOT an environment where Israel and the UN had ANY CHANCE of continuing to negotiate the PROMISING agreement that I posted above.. Again -- the Palis were left with an UN-UNIFIED govt and lack of leadership... Peace is NOT possible if you have no leaders to negotiate with...


And it IS linked BTW...

You had Fatah refusing to take orders from newly elected Hamas leaders..​

You can't blame Hamas if Fatah refused to recognize the election results.

No -- I don't.. I blame the Palestinians for casting off the only functional and competent govt they ever had for a bunch of radical Jihadists..

Massive corruption and 20 years of so called peace talks that got them less than nothing, consistent violations of domestic and international law.

It was a throw the bums out vote.

See above to understand why the US and Israel like them so much.

Who was it that walked away from the peace talks every time because their demands would not be met before the peace talks. The only peace talks that came to anything were the ones the UN did not control, and now the Palestinians want to nullify these when they don't support their actions. Time to take action and enforce free elections with UN firepower, and then give them 6 months to negotiate mutual borders and peace or face complete withdrawal of all western aid

 

[Phoenall]

It did not function very well at all after about March of 2006.. You had Fatah refusing to take orders from newly elected Hamas leaders.. And building of militias. This is NOT an environment where Israel and the UN had ANY CHANCE of continuing to negotiate the PROMISING agreement that I posted above.. Again -- the Palis were left with an UN-UNIFIED govt and lack of leadership... Peace is NOT possible if you have no leaders to negotiate with...


And it IS linked BTW...

You had Fatah refusing to take orders from newly elected Hamas leaders..​

You can't blame Hamas if Fatah refused to recognize the election results.

No -- I don't.. I blame the Palestinians for casting off the only functional and competent govt they ever had for a bunch of radical Jihadists..

Massive corruption and 20 years of so called peace talks that got them less than nothing, consistent violations of domestic and international law.

It was a throw the bums out vote.

See above to understand why the US and Israel like them so much.

The PA had just gotten Israel to LEAVE GAZA -- EVICT THE SETTLERS and lay down terms for COMPLETE autonomy of the Gaza strip.. Within MONTHS -- the Palis change management to a more vicious and militant leadership..

Yeah -- that makes a lot of sense PFT..



NOW --- they got NOTHING. And no CHANCE of anything. Time for another vote.

The first thing Hamas did was to offer a bilateral ceasefire. Of course Israel rejected it.

I don't see where Hamas's election changed the dynamics of the agreement with Israel. Did Hamas reject any of the agreement?

LINK lets see the terms of this alleged ceasefire ?


Yes if you read their charter and manifesto ?

 

[Phoenall]

That is going a bit far from the topic here. The point was --- THERE WOULD BE A SEAPORT AND OPEN COMMERCE TODAY in Gaza --- had the govt not been hijacked by radicals who are not interested in settling up with Israel and getting on with life.

It's hopeless to make you feel any urgency about settling all this. Don't think you actuallly care if Gaza is devasted and starving. And you will never acknowledged the DOZENS of truly bad decisions by the Palis that leads to their suffering TODAY and TOMORROW.. Discussing this with you is a HUGE waste of time.. For US --- and for them..

Is that merely speculation or do you have something more substantial?

Do you have a solution to the suffering and starving and wasting of lives that occurs in Gaza today?
That's what I'm trying to do.. To identify how to get on with ending an occupation gone badly and a Pali people who have NEVER worked very hard at having respectable representation that has a vision for peace and prosperity.

Only one workable solution in my mind, and that is to stop all aid to the Palestinians until they sit down and talk peace and mutual borders with all their neighbours. Then enforce the peace through aid and sanctions until it becomes second nature to live in peace

 

[Phoenall]

That is going a bit far from the topic here. The point was --- THERE WOULD BE A SEAPORT AND OPEN COMMERCE TODAY in Gaza --- had the govt not been hijacked by radicals who are not interested in settling up with Israel and getting on with life.

It's hopeless to make you feel any urgency about settling all this. Don't think you actuallly care if Gaza is devasted and starving. And you will never acknowledged the DOZENS of truly bad decisions by the Palis that leads to their suffering TODAY and TOMORROW.. Discussing this with you is a HUGE waste of time.. For US --- and for them..

Is that merely speculation or do you have something more substantial?

Do you have a solution to the suffering and starving and wasting of lives that occurs in Gaza today?
That's what I'm trying to do.. To identify how to get on with ending an occupation gone badly and a Pali people who have NEVER worked very hard at having respectable representation that has a vision for peace and prosperity.

Indeed, the Palestinians have been seeking peace based on law and justice.

Those are two words that have never crossed the lips of anyone in the so called peace process.

So why wont they accept law other than sharia and islam, and why wont they accept any justice other than Islamic justice. If they seek peace based on law then why are they insistent on stealing Jewish land granted under law in 1923. If they seek peace based of justice then why are they in breach of just laws on the act of war and targeting civilians for their propaganda values.

 

[Phoenall]

That is going a bit far from the topic here. The point was --- THERE WOULD BE A SEAPORT AND OPEN COMMERCE TODAY in Gaza --- had the govt not been hijacked by radicals who are not interested in settling up with Israel and getting on with life.

It's hopeless to make you feel any urgency about settling all this. Don't think you actuallly care if Gaza is devasted and starving. And you will never acknowledged the DOZENS of truly bad decisions by the Palis that leads to their suffering TODAY and TOMORROW.. Discussing this with you is a HUGE waste of time.. For US --- and for them..

Is that merely speculation or do you have something more substantial?

Do you have a solution to the suffering and starving and wasting of lives that occurs in Gaza today?
That's what I'm trying to do.. To identify how to get on with ending an occupation gone badly and a Pali people who have NEVER worked very hard at having respectable representation that has a vision for peace and prosperity.

Indeed, the Palestinians have been seeking peace based on law and justice.

Those are two words that have never crossed the lips of anyone in the so called peace process.

That's what you claim ... not what Hamas's Covenant says:

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad..."

Hamas is hardly a mention in Palestinian discourse. Israel gives them too much credit.

They are the elected P.A and as such should be leading by example, unless they are leading by example and want the whole population to be jihadi's

 

[P F Tinmore]

You had Fatah refusing to take orders from newly elected Hamas leaders..​

You can't blame Hamas if Fatah refused to recognize the election results.

No -- I don't.. I blame the Palestinians for casting off the only functional and competent govt they ever had for a bunch of radical Jihadists..

Massive corruption and 20 years of so called peace talks that got them less than nothing, consistent violations of domestic and international law.

It was a throw the bums out vote.

See above to understand why the US and Israel like them so much.

The PA had just gotten Israel to LEAVE GAZA -- EVICT THE SETTLERS and lay down terms for COMPLETE autonomy of the Gaza strip.. Within MONTHS -- the Palis change management to a more vicious and militant leadership..

Yeah -- that makes a lot of sense PFT..



NOW --- they got NOTHING. And no CHANCE of anything. Time for another vote.

The first thing Hamas did was to offer a bilateral ceasefire. Of course Israel rejected it.

I don't see where Hamas's election changed the dynamics of the agreement with Israel. Did Hamas reject any of the agreement?

LINK lets see the terms of this alleged ceasefire ?


Yes if you read their charter and manifesto ?

Hamas: Truce On 1967 Borders Possible

 

[Phoenall]

No -- I don't.. I blame the Palestinians for casting off the only functional and competent govt they ever had for a bunch of radical Jihadists..

Massive corruption and 20 years of so called peace talks that got them less than nothing, consistent violations of domestic and international law.

It was a throw the bums out vote.

See above to understand why the US and Israel like them so much.

The PA had just gotten Israel to LEAVE GAZA -- EVICT THE SETTLERS and lay down terms for COMPLETE autonomy of the Gaza strip.. Within MONTHS -- the Palis change management to a more vicious and militant leadership..

Yeah -- that makes a lot of sense PFT..



NOW --- they got NOTHING. And no CHANCE of anything. Time for another vote.

The first thing Hamas did was to offer a bilateral ceasefire. Of course Israel rejected it.

I don't see where Hamas's election changed the dynamics of the agreement with Israel. Did Hamas reject any of the agreement?

LINK lets see the terms of this alleged ceasefire ?


Yes if you read their charter and manifesto ?

Hamas: Truce On 1967 Borders Possible

Impossible as there are no 1967 borders in existence. So until they are negotiated they are a figment of the terrorists imagination.

And notice it is truce and not peace for the rest of history, will it include the usual Palestinian clause that makes it non binding on the Palestinians if they think they could win in a war against Israel ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Massive corruption and 20 years of so called peace talks that got them less than nothing, consistent violations of domestic and international law.

It was a throw the bums out vote.

See above to understand why the US and Israel like them so much.

The PA had just gotten Israel to LEAVE GAZA -- EVICT THE SETTLERS and lay down terms for COMPLETE autonomy of the Gaza strip.. Within MONTHS -- the Palis change management to a more vicious and militant leadership..

Yeah -- that makes a lot of sense PFT..



NOW --- they got NOTHING. And no CHANCE of anything. Time for another vote.

The first thing Hamas did was to offer a bilateral ceasefire. Of course Israel rejected it.

I don't see where Hamas's election changed the dynamics of the agreement with Israel. Did Hamas reject any of the agreement?

LINK lets see the terms of this alleged ceasefire ?


Yes if you read their charter and manifesto ?

Hamas: Truce On 1967 Borders Possible

Impossible as there are no 1967 borders in existence. So until they are negotiated they are a figment of the terrorists imagination.

And notice it is truce and not peace for the rest of history, will it include the usual Palestinian clause that makes it non binding on the Palestinians if they think they could win in a war against Israel ?

The idea is that if you can stop shooting at each other for a period of time it would be easier to negotiate peace. There would be much less fear and mistrust.

 

[Hollie]

The PA had just gotten Israel to LEAVE GAZA -- EVICT THE SETTLERS and lay down terms for COMPLETE autonomy of the Gaza strip.. Within MONTHS -- the Palis change management to a more vicious and militant leadership..

Yeah -- that makes a lot of sense PFT..



NOW --- they got NOTHING. And no CHANCE of anything. Time for another vote.

The first thing Hamas did was to offer a bilateral ceasefire. Of course Israel rejected it.

I don't see where Hamas's election changed the dynamics of the agreement with Israel. Did Hamas reject any of the agreement?

LINK lets see the terms of this alleged ceasefire ?


Yes if you read their charter and manifesto ?

Hamas: Truce On 1967 Borders Possible

Impossible as there are no 1967 borders in existence. So until they are negotiated they are a figment of the terrorists imagination.

And notice it is truce and not peace for the rest of history, will it include the usual Palestinian clause that makes it non binding on the Palestinians if they think they could win in a war against Israel ?

The idea is that if you can stop shooting at each other for a period of time it would be easier to negotiate peace. There would be much less fear and mistrust.

The Hamas Charter is not a framework for peace.

 

[Phoenall]

The PA had just gotten Israel to LEAVE GAZA -- EVICT THE SETTLERS and lay down terms for COMPLETE autonomy of the Gaza strip.. Within MONTHS -- the Palis change management to a more vicious and militant leadership..

Yeah -- that makes a lot of sense PFT..



NOW --- they got NOTHING. And no CHANCE of anything. Time for another vote.

The first thing Hamas did was to offer a bilateral ceasefire. Of course Israel rejected it.

I don't see where Hamas's election changed the dynamics of the agreement with Israel. Did Hamas reject any of the agreement?

LINK lets see the terms of this alleged ceasefire ?


Yes if you read their charter and manifesto ?

Hamas: Truce On 1967 Borders Possible

Impossible as there are no 1967 borders in existence. So until they are negotiated they are a figment of the terrorists imagination.

And notice it is truce and not peace for the rest of history, will it include the usual Palestinian clause that makes it non binding on the Palestinians if they think they could win in a war against Israel ?

The idea is that if you can stop shooting at each other for a period of time it would be easier to negotiate peace. There would be much less fear and mistrust.

That would not be possible without hamas denying their roots in islam and as jihadists. Did you even read the terms of the alleged truce hamas proposed, that had demands that had to be met before they would even consider talking to Israel. The usual crap of lifting the blockade, leaving the west bank and going back to the 1947 partition plan borders. Totally unworkable which is why you and them propose these truces so you can say we did try but Israel refused again