Gasoline Is Becoming Worthless

[Flopper]

Can't come fast enough.

Why do you say that? This sounds like it will be bad news for neighborhood grease monkeys who know how to work on gasoline engines.

Have you been to a repair shop in the last ten years? "Grease moneys" don't exist any more. There is little difference between electric, hybrid and ICE cars anymore except for the primary propulsion. All use extensive electronics to function so mechanics will have little trouble transitioning from working on ICE cars to electronic ones. It takes a lot of smarts to be a mechanic on today's cars. In fact, from my experience, most mechanics are more comfortable working on computerized systems than doing old fashioned trouble shooting. I've had modern, well trained and certified mechanics have trouble finding problems that couldn't be diagnosed by the electronic systems. One especially was that my RV was losing power at full throttle and throwing oxygen sensor failure codes. After three trips to two different sops (one of which was a dealer) all of which replaced expensive sensors and tested electronics, I did some trouble shooting of my own and found the problem was a see-through fuel filter that was completely clogged with actual dirt. All you had to do was crawl under the vehicle and look at the filter to see the problem. The computers were interpreting the resulting oxygen rich mixture as a sensor or injector problem. not a fuel supply one. Three different mechanics depended on the electronics.

I took my Hyundai in to the dealer because of an engine problem. They said they would be happy to work on it and since it was still in warranty there would be no cost. After about 6 hours, I got a call telling me it was all done. So I drove it away but the problem was still there. I took it back promptly and was told I needed to schedule another appointment and I did and the results were the same so I talked to the service rep and he explained that they ran all the diagnostics, researched the problem and reach the conclusion that was no problem. However, the problem was pretty obvious. You drive it a few miles and the engine just stops. You start it again and it runs a while and then just stops. The service rep agreed it was a problem but said there was nothing he could do because it passed all the diagnostic. So I talked to some manager at Hyundai and got pretty much the same thing from him but he did agree to have a specialist research the problem. Since, the car was still in warranty and ran great for about 10 mins, I decided to trade it in. It is now someone else's problem. I have a new car and a hand full of coupons for free car washes courtesy of Hyundai service.

 

[toobfreak]

The problem with that is CNG is far less efficient than gasoline. I worked for a major telco in California and they made a decision to go green and replace their gasoline fleet with CNG vehicles. They immediately found that the CNG trucks had to fuel twice as often as the gasoline ones and the technicians spent inordinate amounts of time sitting in line at the few CNG fuel stations. A side problem was that many of our offices were a half hour or more from a fuel station. My office was 25 miles from the nearest one and after delaying for two years the company decided to replace our two twenty year old GM minitrucks with Ford hybrids because the mechanics were having problems finding parts for the trucks. In some places electric would be a reasonable alternative since many urban locations rarely put more than fifty miles a day on their trucks, but there were places like my last work location as a field tech where we would almost always put well over a hundred miles a day and three hundred or more mile days weren't unusual.

Well obviously, two things:

1. Natural gas technology needs further continuing development and support if it were to go to wide-scale use in the future.
2. Whomever made that decision to take your fleet to NG was one dumb bunny who didn't do their cost/benefit analysis research very well and should have been fired.

I'm a hydrogen fuel cell guy myself.

 

[toobfreak]

Can't come fast enough.

Why do you say that? This sounds like it will be bad news for neighborhood grease monkeys who know how to work on gasoline engines.

Have you been to a repair shop in the last ten years? "Grease moneys" don't exist any more. There is little difference between electric, hybrid and ICE cars anymore except for the primary propulsion. All use extensive electronics to function so mechanics will have little trouble transitioning from working on ICE cars to electronic ones. It takes a lot of smarts to be a mechanic on today's cars. In fact, from my experience, most mechanics are more comfortable working on computerized systems than doing old fashioned trouble shooting. I've had modern, well trained and certified mechanics have trouble finding problems that couldn't be diagnosed by the electronic systems. One especially was that my RV was losing power at full throttle and throwing oxygen sensor failure codes. After three trips to two different sops (one of which was a dealer) all of which replaced expensive sensors and tested electronics, I did some trouble shooting of my own and found the problem was a see-through fuel filter that was completely clogged with actual dirt. All you had to do was crawl under the vehicle and look at the filter to see the problem. The computers were interpreting the resulting oxygen rich mixture as a sensor or injector problem. not a fuel supply one. Three different mechanics depended on the electronics.

I took my Hyundai in to the dealer because of an engine problem. They said they would be happy to work on it and since it was still in warranty there would be no cost. After about 6 hours, I got a call telling me it was all done. So I drove it away but the problem was still there. I took it back promptly and was told I needed to schedule another appointment and I did and the results were the same so I talked to the service rep and he explained that they ran all the diagnostics, researched the problem and reach the conclusion that was no problem. However, the problem was pretty obvious. You drive it a few miles and the engine just stops. You start it again and it runs a while and then just stops. The service rep agreed it was a problem but said there was nothing he could do because it passed all the diagnostic. So I talked to some manager at Hyundai and got pretty much the same thing from him but he did agree to have a specialist research the problem. Since, the car was still in warranty and ran great for about 10 mins, I decided to trade it in. It is now someone else's problem. I have a new car and a hand full of coupons for free car washes courtesy of Hyundai service.

The technician was right! There was no problem. For them. The problem was yours.

What's funny is that you got boned by Hyundai so your solution was to go out and buy ANOTHER Hyundai.

 

[Desperado]

That is the opinion of Wall St. investors, who think it could be a money loser by 2030.



New research from Morgan Stanley argues that traditional internal combustion engines—the mainstay of automobiles for more than a century—are destined to become money-losers as early as 2030. “We believe the market may be ascribing zero (or even negative?) value for ICE-derived revenues at GM and Ford,” auto analyst Adam Jonas wrote in a Jan. 29 analysis. He lists a variety of factors likely to “transform what were once profit-generating assets into potentially loss-making and cash-burning businesses.”

And more of the story I find interesting:


The investing firm recently surveyed institutional investors on the value of internal-combustion technology at GM and Ford. Seventeen percent said ICE technology had no value or negative value today. Sixty percent rated ICE technology as slightly positive, while 23% said it was a significantly positive value. That’s with electrification technology still in the early innings: total market share for fully electric vehicles is still less than 3%.

Risk in adapting too slowly
But essentially all of the growth in powertrain adoption in coming years will be electric, while ICE powertrains are certain to decline. The risk for automakers isn’t adapting too quickly and getting ahead of the market. It’s adapting too slowly and becoming overly reliant on dying technology consumers may no longer want as electrics get cheaper and range improves. That extends to factory capacity, with ICE assembly lines possibly becoming stranded assets with no market value. It would cost automakers money to disassemble or convert them to valuable use, thus the possibility of negative value

Gasoline is becoming worthless

Investors are beginning to value internal-combustion technology at 0 or less, which is forcing the faster adoption of electrics at GM, Ford and other automakers.

www.yahoo.com

Ok all you freaks wanting to eliminate gas... what is the boating public supposed to do?
what is the private aircraft owners supposed to do?
Then there is the loss of revenue from the gas tax both federal, state and local.
Gas will not be disappearing anytime soon

 

[Flopper]

Can't come fast enough.

Why do you say that? This sounds like it will be bad news for neighborhood grease monkeys who know how to work on gasoline engines.

Have you been to a repair shop in the last ten years? "Grease moneys" don't exist any more. There is little difference between electric, hybrid and ICE cars anymore except for the primary propulsion. All use extensive electronics to function so mechanics will have little trouble transitioning from working on ICE cars to electronic ones. It takes a lot of smarts to be a mechanic on today's cars. In fact, from my experience, most mechanics are more comfortable working on computerized systems than doing old fashioned trouble shooting. I've had modern, well trained and certified mechanics have trouble finding problems that couldn't be diagnosed by the electronic systems. One especially was that my RV was losing power at full throttle and throwing oxygen sensor failure codes. After three trips to two different sops (one of which was a dealer) all of which replaced expensive sensors and tested electronics, I did some trouble shooting of my own and found the problem was a see-through fuel filter that was completely clogged with actual dirt. All you had to do was crawl under the vehicle and look at the filter to see the problem. The computers were interpreting the resulting oxygen rich mixture as a sensor or injector problem. not a fuel supply one. Three different mechanics depended on the electronics.

I took my Hyundai in to the dealer because of an engine problem. They said they would be happy to work on it and since it was still in warranty there would be no cost. After about 6 hours, I got a call telling me it was all done. So I drove it away but the problem was still there. I took it back promptly and was told I needed to schedule another appointment and I did and the results were the same so I talked to the service rep and he explained that they ran all the diagnostics, researched the problem and reach the conclusion that was no problem. However, the problem was pretty obvious. You drive it a few miles and the engine just stops. You start it again and it runs a while and then just stops. The service rep agreed it was a problem but said there was nothing he could do because it passed all the diagnostic. So I talked to some manager at Hyundai and got pretty much the same thing from him but he did agree to have a specialist research the problem. Since, the car was still in warranty and ran great for about 10 mins, I decided to trade it in. It is now someone else's problem. I have a new car and a hand full of coupons for free car washes courtesy of Hyundai service.

The technician was right! There was no problem. For them. The problem was yours.

What's funny is that you got boned by Hyundai so your solution was to go out and buy ANOTHER Hyundai.

I bought a Toyota

 

[westwall]

That is the opinion of Wall St. investors, who think it could be a money loser by 2030.



New research from Morgan Stanley argues that traditional internal combustion engines—the mainstay of automobiles for more than a century—are destined to become money-losers as early as 2030. “We believe the market may be ascribing zero (or even negative?) value for ICE-derived revenues at GM and Ford,” auto analyst Adam Jonas wrote in a Jan. 29 analysis. He lists a variety of factors likely to “transform what were once profit-generating assets into potentially loss-making and cash-burning businesses.”

And more of the story I find interesting:


The investing firm recently surveyed institutional investors on the value of internal-combustion technology at GM and Ford. Seventeen percent said ICE technology had no value or negative value today. Sixty percent rated ICE technology as slightly positive, while 23% said it was a significantly positive value. That’s with electrification technology still in the early innings: total market share for fully electric vehicles is still less than 3%.

Risk in adapting too slowly
But essentially all of the growth in powertrain adoption in coming years will be electric, while ICE powertrains are certain to decline. The risk for automakers isn’t adapting too quickly and getting ahead of the market. It’s adapting too slowly and becoming overly reliant on dying technology consumers may no longer want as electrics get cheaper and range improves. That extends to factory capacity, with ICE assembly lines possibly becoming stranded assets with no market value. It would cost automakers money to disassemble or convert them to valuable use, thus the possibility of negative value

Gasoline is becoming worthless

Investors are beginning to value internal-combustion technology at 0 or less, which is forcing the faster adoption of electrics at GM, Ford and other automakers.

www.yahoo.com

Internal Combustion engines are incredibly inefficient at turning fuel burned into usable energy. The efficiency by which they do so is measured in terms of "thermal efficiency", and most gasoline combustion engines average around 20 percent thermal efficiency, however older vehicles can be as low as 13% which means we are wasting as much as 87%. Toyota has claimed to have reached 38%. Typically electric motors have an efficiency of about 75% but can reach nearly 100%. In short most of the energy released in an ICE goes to produce heat, not motion.

And you ignore the fact that the power to charge EV's comes from the grid. Transmission loss is tremendous. Formula One Racing has attained 50% thermal efficiency with the new hybrid systems. And yes, I have ALWAYS backed hybrids. They ARE a very useful, and efficient technology. Unlike pure EV's.

 

[westwall]

That is the opinion of Wall St. investors, who think it could be a money loser by 2030.



New research from Morgan Stanley argues that traditional internal combustion engines—the mainstay of automobiles for more than a century—are destined to become money-losers as early as 2030. “We believe the market may be ascribing zero (or even negative?) value for ICE-derived revenues at GM and Ford,” auto analyst Adam Jonas wrote in a Jan. 29 analysis. He lists a variety of factors likely to “transform what were once profit-generating assets into potentially loss-making and cash-burning businesses.”

And more of the story I find interesting:


The investing firm recently surveyed institutional investors on the value of internal-combustion technology at GM and Ford. Seventeen percent said ICE technology had no value or negative value today. Sixty percent rated ICE technology as slightly positive, while 23% said it was a significantly positive value. That’s with electrification technology still in the early innings: total market share for fully electric vehicles is still less than 3%.

Risk in adapting too slowly
But essentially all of the growth in powertrain adoption in coming years will be electric, while ICE powertrains are certain to decline. The risk for automakers isn’t adapting too quickly and getting ahead of the market. It’s adapting too slowly and becoming overly reliant on dying technology consumers may no longer want as electrics get cheaper and range improves. That extends to factory capacity, with ICE assembly lines possibly becoming stranded assets with no market value. It would cost automakers money to disassemble or convert them to valuable use, thus the possibility of negative value

Gasoline is becoming worthless

Investors are beginning to value internal-combustion technology at 0 or less, which is forcing the faster adoption of electrics at GM, Ford and other automakers.

www.yahoo.com

Ok all you freaks wanting to eliminate gas... what is the boating public supposed to do?
what is the private aircraft owners supposed to do?
Then there is the loss of revenue from the gas tax both federal, state and local.
Gas will not be disappearing anytime soon

They don't want you to have a boat dude. Don't you know that you are merely to become a serf and service the ruling elite who get to do whatever they want, whenever they want, without you smelly serfs around. Boats are for THE RULING CLASS!

 

[anotherlife]

It is not going to be a loser. Some clever commodity shorting here? Most of the world has no infrastructure. They will not have electric charging stations, ever. So the availability of gasoline and gasoline engines will be here forever.

 

[westwall]

Racing will be with hybrids up to 2030. Full electric is where the future is. And investments are pushing it. Out with the old and in with the new. Carbon neutral by 2050.

If electric cars are so great why is there not a single competitor in endurance racing?

Not yet, as in full electric. FIA WEC and IMSA hypercar LMDh hybrids for next season.

Hybrids have been running in F1 for years now. And they are great. I love hybrids. Full EV's are a non starter. You won't be seeing pure EV's in endurance racing forever at the current rate of technology increase.

 

[Turtlesoup]

That is the opinion of Wall St. investors, who think it could be a money loser by 2030.



New research from Morgan Stanley argues that traditional internal combustion engines—the mainstay of automobiles for more than a century—are destined to become money-losers as early as 2030. “We believe the market may be ascribing zero (or even negative?) value for ICE-derived revenues at GM and Ford,” auto analyst Adam Jonas wrote in a Jan. 29 analysis. He lists a variety of factors likely to “transform what were once profit-generating assets into potentially loss-making and cash-burning businesses.”

And more of the story I find interesting:


The investing firm recently surveyed institutional investors on the value of internal-combustion technology at GM and Ford. Seventeen percent said ICE technology had no value or negative value today. Sixty percent rated ICE technology as slightly positive, while 23% said it was a significantly positive value. That’s with electrification technology still in the early innings: total market share for fully electric vehicles is still less than 3%.

Risk in adapting too slowly
But essentially all of the growth in powertrain adoption in coming years will be electric, while ICE powertrains are certain to decline. The risk for automakers isn’t adapting too quickly and getting ahead of the market. It’s adapting too slowly and becoming overly reliant on dying technology consumers may no longer want as electrics get cheaper and range improves. That extends to factory capacity, with ICE assembly lines possibly becoming stranded assets with no market value. It would cost automakers money to disassemble or convert them to valuable use, thus the possibility of negative value

Gasoline is becoming worthless

Investors are beginning to value internal-combustion technology at 0 or less, which is forcing the faster adoption of electrics at GM, Ford and other automakers.

www.yahoo.com

Pssssssss dear.......hybrids and electric cars can't tow.......so they aren't all going away even if you were correct.

Biden and the communists are going to give money to GM who will give them huge kickbacks all under the guise of going electric. Just remember it is all smoke and mirrors.

 

[danielpalos]

Pssssssss dear.......hybrids and electric cars can't tow.......so they aren't all going away even if you were correct.

Biden and the communists are going to give money to GM who will give them huge kickbacks all under the guise of going electric. Just remember it is all smoke and mirrors.

Isn't Tesla coming out with a tractor trailer?

 

[EvMetro]

Pssssssss dear.......hybrids and electric cars can't tow.......so they aren't all going away even if you were correct.

Biden and the communists are going to give money to GM who will give them huge kickbacks all under the guise of going electric. Just remember it is all smoke and mirrors.

Isn't Tesla coming out with a tractor trailer?

Tesla already developed the semi tractor trailer. They have seen the light though, and have abandoned it. The numbers don't add up. You can only charge up an EV battery about 1000 times before it needs replacing, and that is one expensive battery. Tesla cars are indeed superior to gasoline cars, but they have a similar problem. That $40k+ battery in an electric car is a repair that exceeds the remaining value of the car a few years later when it wears out like batteries do.

 

[EvMetro]

Maybe your scenario comes true, would be fine with me, the only problem is that electric cars will outperform them and, ultimately, be cheaper, too. However, you can still use GPS technology to find gas stations for your cross country trips.

A). As a retired EE, you don't need to tell me about electrical efficiency. Meantime my very used gas car which I paid $4,000 cash for with DOHC hemi motor, power everything, sunroof, leather interior, AM/FM/Cassette/6 CD player, cruise, AC, traction control, no rust, spotless exterior/interior, spacious trunk, seats 5 people comfortably and more, launches from a stop to 60 mph in a few seconds, hits top highway speed in like 6 seconds, does 115 on the highway. What more "performance" do I need?

B). I can go 300 miles no problem between fill ups, gas is cheap, and my annual upkeep is typically about $45, for my state inspection and emission test.

C). Just wait until it is time to replace your batteries (and heaven help you if they short out or blow up).


I will never own an electric car.

As you probably know, an EV really is far more efficient than an ICE, but few people consider the efficiency of the source of the electricity that charges the EV, or the transmission losses. I haven't seen anybody who backs the future of EVs actually acknowledge or discuss where exactly the electricity will come from. I've seen many discuss a better charging grid, but nobody can quantify where the electricity will come from.

 

[danielpalos]

Pssssssss dear.......hybrids and electric cars can't tow.......so they aren't all going away even if you were correct.

Biden and the communists are going to give money to GM who will give them huge kickbacks all under the guise of going electric. Just remember it is all smoke and mirrors.

Isn't Tesla coming out with a tractor trailer?

Tesla already developed the semi tractor trailer. They have seen the light though, and have abandoned it. The numbers don't add up. You can only charge up an EV battery about 1000 times before it needs replacing, and that is one expensive battery. Tesla cars are indeed superior to gasoline cars, but they have a similar problem. That $40k+ battery in an electric car is a repair that exceeds the remaining value of the car a few years later when it wears out like batteries do.

The latest info I have read claims it will be going into production this year but is waiting on the on the new battery to produce in volume.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

That is the opinion of Wall St. investors, who think it could be a money loser by 2030.



New research from Morgan Stanley argues that traditional internal combustion engines—the mainstay of automobiles for more than a century—are destined to become money-losers as early as 2030. “We believe the market may be ascribing zero (or even negative?) value for ICE-derived revenues at GM and Ford,” auto analyst Adam Jonas wrote in a Jan. 29 analysis. He lists a variety of factors likely to “transform what were once profit-generating assets into potentially loss-making and cash-burning businesses.”

And more of the story I find interesting:


The investing firm recently surveyed institutional investors on the value of internal-combustion technology at GM and Ford. Seventeen percent said ICE technology had no value or negative value today. Sixty percent rated ICE technology as slightly positive, while 23% said it was a significantly positive value. That’s with electrification technology still in the early innings: total market share for fully electric vehicles is still less than 3%.

Risk in adapting too slowly
But essentially all of the growth in powertrain adoption in coming years will be electric, while ICE powertrains are certain to decline. The risk for automakers isn’t adapting too quickly and getting ahead of the market. It’s adapting too slowly and becoming overly reliant on dying technology consumers may no longer want as electrics get cheaper and range improves. That extends to factory capacity, with ICE assembly lines possibly becoming stranded assets with no market value. It would cost automakers money to disassemble or convert them to valuable use, thus the possibility of negative value

Gasoline is becoming worthless

Investors are beginning to value internal-combustion technology at 0 or less, which is forcing the faster adoption of electrics at GM, Ford and other automakers.

www.yahoo.com

Acronyms are racist and a form of white supremacy

Acronyms are now racist according to the San Francisco School art department and we're like, AYKM?

To the ever-lengthening list of "things that are now white supremacy" add acronyms because when you're on the lookout for racism, you're going to find it no matter what.

notthebee.com

You've been reported

 

[EvMetro]

Pssssssss dear.......hybrids and electric cars can't tow.......so they aren't all going away even if you were correct.

Biden and the communists are going to give money to GM who will give them huge kickbacks all under the guise of going electric. Just remember it is all smoke and mirrors.

Isn't Tesla coming out with a tractor trailer?

Tesla already developed the semi tractor trailer. They have seen the light though, and have abandoned it. The numbers don't add up. You can only charge up an EV battery about 1000 times before it needs replacing, and that is one expensive battery. Tesla cars are indeed superior to gasoline cars, but they have a similar problem. That $40k+ battery in an electric car is a repair that exceeds the remaining value of the car a few years later when it wears out like batteries do.

The latest info I have read claims it will be going into production this year but is waiting on the on the new battery to produce in volume.

There are plenty of youtube videos of the Tesla semi on the road, but the numbers don't add up. That's why Tesla abandoned it. When you look at the price of the battery and the number of miles you get out of the life of the pack, it doesn't make sense. Puekerts law applies as well.

 

[toobfreak]

As you probably know, an EV really is far more efficient than an ICE,

Well of course. A great deal of the energy produced by an ICE is lost as HEAT, whereas the losses in an electic motor are fairly minimal, principally four types of losses, some minor I2R losses, minor eddy current loses, some minor counter emf losses, and other minor losses. Other than that, the armature of the motors (the drive axle) is magnetically coupled to the magnetic field generated by the current in the stator.

but few people consider the efficiency of the source of the electricity that charges the EV, or the transmission losses.

Not sure what you mean by the transmission losses, high tension losses are rather minimal, DC losses over short distances are not significant, the main loss is in the DC conversion from AC to charge the car, and more importantly, the means of generating and supplying the electricity in the first place!

AND FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE, a great deal of electricity is generated by burning coal, hydroelectric, etc., and a rather small amount of from "green sources" like wind and solar. But even then, there are carbon and other environmental factors just in the building of wind generators, making solar panels, making batteries and the construction of hydroelectric plants. Even nuclear.

No matter how you dice it, everything you do no matter how "green" it is, has a carbon/environmental impact. It's a carbon world (except on Janus 6).

 

[danielpalos]

There are plenty of youtube videos of the Tesla semi on the road, but the numbers don't add up. That's why Tesla abandoned it. When you look at the price of the battery and the number of miles you get out of the life of the pack, it doesn't make sense. Puekerts law applies as well.

Link? The latest I have read stated it is going into small scale production this year.

 

[EvMetro]

There are plenty of youtube videos of the Tesla semi on the road, but the numbers don't add up. That's why Tesla abandoned it. When you look at the price of the battery and the number of miles you get out of the life of the pack, it doesn't make sense. Puekerts law applies as well.

Link? The latest I have read stated it is going into small scale production this year.

If it goes into production at all, it would indeed have to be pretty small scale. I remember watching the videos of the Tesla rig, but that was years ago. If you look at the cost of replacing that battery pack every 1,000 charges, you can see why there is no rush to put that kind of a mess on the road. I think that is why Nikola stock isn't going anywhere but down.

 

[initforme]

If electric comes to fruition so be it. Only idiots are really concerned.