Gasoline Is Becoming Worthless

[toobfreak]

300 miles isn't much.

I can go 450 on a tank. In fact, I recently drove from Reno to Phoenix. A Tesla was doing the same trip. He loved blowing by me at 90mph. I passed him at every charging station. Finally we had dinner in Vegas and we didn't see him till we were leaving for the next stage to Kingman. He had to do a full charge because his rapid charges weren't enough. He spent the night in Vegas, and we drove on to Phoenix.
He arrived 13 hours after us. Like I said, until EV's can begin competition in endurance races, they ain't anything other than a cute novelty for rich people trying to show off.

My car admittedly has a small tank at only 16 gallons and is a gas hog as it is performance geared and always looking to stay in the power range only shifting up to 5th gear if I lay back and cruise. Plus the car is 21 years old and needs a tune up. But it hits 90 mph like it is nothing and goes right up the sides of mountains like they ain't even there.

 

[mudwhistle]

Can't come fast enough.

Beat the rush, get out there and buy a horse and buggy.

I was watching Ben-Hur , there is a lot to be said for horse and buggy transportation.

I like those little spiky things they put on the wheels. Discourages people from getting too close.

I like Witness with Harrison Ford.

Here in the Tremendous County of Mercer , we have Amish colonies. Looks like a good opportunity for a go-getter to sell the Amish buggy drivers spiky things for their wheels.

Yep.....Democrats want us all to become Amish....which works great as long as you don't have to travel more than 30-50 miles for anything.

 

[Pete7469]

I was going to ask if liberals were becoming worthless, but that would actually be an improvement. As it is they're a malignancy.

 

[toobfreak]

Gas stations are everywhere.

Most major intersections around here often have two gas stations right across from each other with more right down the street before the NEXT intersection! There will ALWAYS be a need for gasoline and diesel. Anyone with any engineering or science background understands this. In my lifetime, at best, they will start adding charging stations as an additional option to existing gas stations.

 

[konradv]

I'm just saying, you're going to be paying through the nose for gas when demand collapses and production follows.

Really? Is that what happens when demand falls for a product? I always thought when demand went down, people LOWERED prices to compete for and attract business! Ever see home prices go up in an area where no one wants to live?

There are production costs to consider. Current prices are spread over billions of gallons. What if it's just millions?

 

[MisterBeale]

Maybe your scenario comes true, would be fine with me, the only problem is that electric cars will outperform them and, ultimately, be cheaper, too. However, you can still use GPS technology to find gas stations for your cross country trips.

A). As a retired EE, you don't need to tell me about electrical efficiency. Meantime my very used gas car which I paid $4,000 cash for with DOHC hemi motor, power everything, sunroof, leather interior, AM/FM/Cassette/6 CD player, cruise, AC, traction control, no rust, spotless exterior/interior, spacious trunk, seats 5 people comfortably and more, launches from a stop to 60 mph in a few seconds, hits top highway speed in like 6 seconds, does 115 on the highway. What more "performance" do I need?

B). I can go 300 miles no problem between fill ups, gas is cheap, and my annual upkeep is typically about $45, for my state inspection and emission test.

C). Just wait until it is time to replace your batteries (and heaven help you if they short out or blow up).


I will never own an electric car.

Added to that, I can see a time, when. . .

After they force this new Green Agenda, the price of electricity sky rockets, so, the cost of re-charging the vehicles goes through the roof.

After that, since the majors have all refused to produce new internal combustion engine cars, I can see an "Elon Musk" of internal combustion engines rising from the ashes, starting a new AMC or Tucker type company from scratch to meet the demand for gas cars. . . and if the majors won't produce gas, there could also see new refiners coming on-line using bit-coin infrastructure. . if, after all, there is such an over-abundance of cheap oil out there, it only seems logical folks will take advantage of cheap plentiful resources to make a buck.

The government can only interfere with the free market for so long, till folks see a profit in something else.

These big auto monopolies in bed with the government and big banks can only pawn off their scam on the public for so long till others see a market for some big profits.

 

[toobfreak]

There are production costs to consider. Current prices are spread over billions of gallons. What if it's just millions?

Production costs? Are you an oil industry energy expert? All of the infrastructure is already in place. Lower production will lower labor costs and wear and tear on machinery. Wouldn't that LOWER production costs?

ITMT, there will be no electric jets, no electric heavy trucks, etc., then there are plastics; the need for fossil fuel will always be there. Maybe the oil industry will add electric generation to supplant/offset changes in the industry.

 

[westwall]

Can't come fast enough.

Beat the rush, get out there and buy a horse and buggy.

I was watching Ben-Hur , there is a lot to be said for horse and buggy transportation.

I like those little spiky things they put on the wheels. Discourages people from getting too close.

I like Witness with Harrison Ford.

Here in the Tremendous County of Mercer , we have Amish colonies. Looks like a good opportunity for a go-getter to sell the Amish buggy drivers spiky things for their wheels.

Yep.....Democrats want us all to become Amish....which works great as long as you don't have to travel more than 30-50 miles for anything.

Wrong. They want us to become SERFS again. Look at the green new deal. It basically is mandated serfdom.

 

[toobfreak]

Added to that, I can see a time, when. . .After they force this new Green Agenda, the price of electricity sky rockets, so, the cost of re-charging the vehicles goes through the roof.

e.g.: everyone went to diesel for the low fuel costs then after tons of people were driving diesel cars, the fuel prices skyrocketed. Now diesel costs more than gas! YOU KNOW that after people HAVE to charge their cars that the government will add on costs for high demand, taxes, etc. BOTTOM LINE: I never commit myself to being bought into and dependent on any popular trends.

After that, since the majors have all refused to produce new internal combustion engine cars, I can see an "Elon Musk" of internal combustion engines rising from the ashes, starting a new AMC or Tucker type company from scratch to meet the demand for gas cars. . . and if the majors won't produce gas, there could also see new refiners coming on-line using bit-coin infrastructure. . if, after all, there is such an over-abundance of cheap oil out there, it only seems logical folks will take advantage of cheap plentiful resources to make a buck.

Or natural gas. There is great possibilities for NG driven vehicles. Cheap as dirt and the Marcellus gas rift in Appalachia alone could supply all the world's energy needs for the next 300 years (plus it is self-renewing). Biden just shut it down.

The government can only interfere with the free market for so long, till folks see a profit in something else.

e.g.: Gamestop to now the silver deluge.

 

[westwall]

I'm just saying, you're going to be paying through the nose for gas when demand collapses and production follows.

Really? Is that what happens when demand falls for a product? I always thought when demand went down, people LOWERED prices to compete for and attract business! Ever see home prices go up in an area where no one wants to live?

There are production costs to consider. Current prices are spread over billions of gallons. What if it's just millions?

The infrastructure is already there. Are you really this stupid?

 

[JustAGuy1]

I'm just saying, you're going to be paying through the nose for gas when demand collapses and production follows.

Really? Is that what happens when demand falls for a product? I always thought when demand went down, people LOWERED prices to compete for and attract business! Ever see home prices go up in an area where no one wants to live?

There are production costs to consider. Current prices are spread over billions of gallons. What if it's just millions?

The infrastructure is already there. Are you really this stupid?

That's rhetorical....right?

 

[okfine]

Racing will be with hybrids up to 2030. Full electric is where the future is. And investments are pushing it. Out with the old and in with the new. Carbon neutral by 2050.

If electric cars are so great why is there not a single competitor in endurance racing?

Not yet, as in full electric. FIA WEC and IMSA hypercar LMDh hybrids for next season.

 

[toobfreak]

There are production costs to consider. Current prices are spread over billions of gallons. What if it's just millions?

The infrastructure is already there. Are you really this stupid?

YEAH, I'd say so, West. I've worked in heavy industry. The main cost is building the infrastructure in the first place. Komrad is projecting a drop in use to 1/1000th current demand! That is HIGHLY unrealistic. He does not understand that the major consumers of gasoline, diesel, kerosene, NG, etc., are the commercial users and heavy industry which will STILL be using these energy sources long after he is driving around in a little electric matchbox.

And with lowered production, production may drop by a third or half, upkeep and maintenance as well as breakdowns in production plants will also drop along an exponential curve. For every halving of production, costs of upkeep will likely drop by a factor of FOUR following the inverse square law, just as any engine lasts longer if you're not always pushing it to 90-100% capacity, so profits may actually go UP.

The very reason why older, overpowered big block cars lasted longer than new car engines using small motors pushed to 100% volumetric efficiency.

 

[mudwhistle]

Added to that, I can see a time, when. . .After they force this new Green Agenda, the price of electricity sky rockets, so, the cost of re-charging the vehicles goes through the roof.

e.g.: everyone went to diesel for the low fuel costs then after tons of people were driving diesel cars, the fuel prices skyrocketed. Now diesel costs more than gas! YOU KNOW that after people HAVE to charge their cars that the government will add on costs for high demand, taxes, etc. BOTTOM LINE: I never commit myself to being bought into and dependent on any popular trends.

After that, since the majors have all refused to produce new internal combustion engine cars, I can see an "Elon Musk" of internal combustion engines rising from the ashes, starting a new AMC or Tucker type company from scratch to meet the demand for gas cars. . . and if the majors won't produce gas, there could also see new refiners coming on-line using bit-coin infrastructure. . if, after all, there is such an over-abundance of cheap oil out there, it only seems logical folks will take advantage of cheap plentiful resources to make a buck.

Or natural gas. There is great possibilities for NG driven vehicles. Cheap as dirt and the Marcellus gas rift in Appalachia alone could supply all the world's energy needs for the next 300 years (plus it is self-renewing). Biden just shut it down.

View attachment 452530

The government can only interfere with the free market for so long, till folks see a profit in something else.

e.g.: Gamestop to now the silver deluge.

Biden didn't shut it down.
He's an empty vessel for communists in the Democrat Party to fulfill all of their hopes and dreams thru.

 

[toobfreak]

If electric cars are so great why is there not a single competitor in endurance racing?

Not yet, as in full electric. FIA WEC and IMSA hypercar LMDh hybrids for next season.

Once again, the COST factor is being ignored. None of this will mean a damn thing to the average user on the street for the foreseeable future.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I'm just saying, you're going to be paying through the nose for gas when demand collapses and production follows.

About 3% of the global population drive these schmuck cars.

There is no demand.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go idle my V8 sports car for about an hour and then set my base timing. Man shit...

What are you gonna do about it? Heh heh.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Can't come fast enough.

Why do you say that? This sounds like it will be bad news for neighborhood grease monkeys who know how to work on gasoline engines.

Have you been to a repair shop in the last ten years? "Grease moneys" don't exist any more. There is little difference between electric, hybrid and ICE cars anymore except for the primary propulsion. All use extensive electronics to function so mechanics will have little trouble transitioning from working on ICE cars to electronic ones. It takes a lot of smarts to be a mechanic on today's cars. In fact, from my experience, most mechanics are more comfortable working on computerized systems than doing old fashioned trouble shooting. I've had modern, well trained and certified mechanics have trouble finding problems that couldn't be diagnosed by the electronic systems. One especially was that my RV was losing power at full throttle and throwing oxygen sensor failure codes. After three trips to two different sops (one of which was a dealer) all of which replaced expensive sensors and tested electronics, I did some trouble shooting of my own and found the problem was a see-through fuel filter that was completely clogged with actual dirt. All you had to do was crawl under the vehicle and look at the filter to see the problem. The computers were interpreting the resulting oxygen rich mixture as a sensor or injector problem. not a fuel supply one. Three different mechanics depended on the electronics.

 

[Flopper]

That is the opinion of Wall St. investors, who think it could be a money loser by 2030.



New research from Morgan Stanley argues that traditional internal combustion engines—the mainstay of automobiles for more than a century—are destined to become money-losers as early as 2030. “We believe the market may be ascribing zero (or even negative?) value for ICE-derived revenues at GM and Ford,” auto analyst Adam Jonas wrote in a Jan. 29 analysis. He lists a variety of factors likely to “transform what were once profit-generating assets into potentially loss-making and cash-burning businesses.”

And more of the story I find interesting:


The investing firm recently surveyed institutional investors on the value of internal-combustion technology at GM and Ford. Seventeen percent said ICE technology had no value or negative value today. Sixty percent rated ICE technology as slightly positive, while 23% said it was a significantly positive value. That’s with electrification technology still in the early innings: total market share for fully electric vehicles is still less than 3%.

Risk in adapting too slowly
But essentially all of the growth in powertrain adoption in coming years will be electric, while ICE powertrains are certain to decline. The risk for automakers isn’t adapting too quickly and getting ahead of the market. It’s adapting too slowly and becoming overly reliant on dying technology consumers may no longer want as electrics get cheaper and range improves. That extends to factory capacity, with ICE assembly lines possibly becoming stranded assets with no market value. It would cost automakers money to disassemble or convert them to valuable use, thus the possibility of negative value

Gasoline is becoming worthless

Investors are beginning to value internal-combustion technology at 0 or less, which is forcing the faster adoption of electrics at GM, Ford and other automakers.

www.yahoo.com

Internal Combustion engines are incredibly inefficient at turning fuel burned into usable energy. The efficiency by which they do so is measured in terms of "thermal efficiency", and most gasoline combustion engines average around 20 percent thermal efficiency, however older vehicles can be as low as 13% which means we are wasting as much as 87%. Toyota has claimed to have reached 38%. Typically electric motors have an efficiency of about 75% but can reach nearly 100%. In short most of the energy released in an ICE goes to produce heat, not motion.

 

[danielpalos]

Cheaper petroleum products!

 

[AZrailwhale]

Added to that, I can see a time, when. . .After they force this new Green Agenda, the price of electricity sky rockets, so, the cost of re-charging the vehicles goes through the roof.

e.g.: everyone went to diesel for the low fuel costs then after tons of people were driving diesel cars, the fuel prices skyrocketed. Now diesel costs more than gas! YOU KNOW that after people HAVE to charge their cars that the government will add on costs for high demand, taxes, etc. BOTTOM LINE: I never commit myself to being bought into and dependent on any popular trends.

After that, since the majors have all refused to produce new internal combustion engine cars, I can see an "Elon Musk" of internal combustion engines rising from the ashes, starting a new AMC or Tucker type company from scratch to meet the demand for gas cars. . . and if the majors won't produce gas, there could also see new refiners coming on-line using bit-coin infrastructure. . if, after all, there is such an over-abundance of cheap oil out there, it only seems logical folks will take advantage of cheap plentiful resources to make a buck.

Or natural gas. There is great possibilities for NG driven vehicles. Cheap as dirt and the Marcellus gas rift in Appalachia alone could supply all the world's energy needs for the next 300 years (plus it is self-renewing). Biden just shut it down.

View attachment 452530

The government can only interfere with the free market for so long, till folks see a profit in something else.

e.g.: Gamestop to now the silver deluge.

The problem with that is CNG is far less efficient than gasoline. I worked for a major telco in California and they made a decision to go green and replace their gasoline fleet with CNG vehicles. They immediately found that the CNG trucks had to fuel twice as often as the gasoline ones and the technicians spent inordinate amounts of time sitting in line at the few CNG fuel stations. A side problem was that many of our offices were a half hour or more from a fuel station. My office was 25 miles from the nearest one and after delaying for two years the company decided to replace our two twenty year old GM minitrucks with Ford hybrids because the mechanics were having problems finding parts for the trucks. In some places electric would be a reasonable alternative since many urban locations rarely put more than fifty miles a day on their trucks, but there were places like my last work location as a field tech where we would almost always put well over a hundred miles a day and three hundred or more mile days weren't unusual.