FYI we aren't giving away ALL the weaponry to Ukraine. This was news to me.

[MarathonMike]

Just came across this today, I feel a little better that we are actually SELLING weapons systems to Ukraine and not just being chumps giving it away.

Ukraine, Asia Drove 50% Increase in FY22 Arms Sales

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency last year saw a substantial increase in the arms sales it administers, including arms purchased directly by partner nations with their own funds and sales

www.defense.gov

 

[DudleySmith]

We're getting rid of some M-1's anyway, have been for a while so why not sell them to Ukraine? The Army doesn't need them either.

From 2021:

Goodbye, tanks: How the Marine Corps will change, and what it will lose, by ditching its armor

Commandant Gen. David H. Berger has said that should armor be needed by Marines, he would look to the Army to provide that capability.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

 

[johngaltshrugged]

So we send our taxpayer cash to Ukraine & then they buy the weapons from the military industrial complex with our money.
Gee, I wonder how many in the UNiparty are invested heavily in defense industries?
Just another way they launder their (our) money

 

[Rambunctious]

We have sent more money to Ukraine than the Russian military expense for all of last year and Ukraine is out of ammo?????
WTF are they doing with the money?...

 

[para bellum]

Just came across this today, I feel a little better that we are actually SELLING weapons systems to Ukraine and not just being chumps giving it away.

Ukraine, Asia Drove 50% Increase in FY22 Arms Sales

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency last year saw a substantial increase in the arms sales it administers, including arms purchased directly by partner nations with their own funds and sales

www.defense.gov

Its more like we're giving them our older munitions and replacing them with new versions. They do have some purchasing authority and loan guarantees for certain things.

I hadn't seen the number, but my gut was telling me the increased sales from other countries exceeded the total amount we were providing to Ukraine, this confirms that.

Not just US arms manufacturers either, all the Western arms manufacturers are booking big orders.

 

[Mushroom]

Its more like we're giving them our older munitions and replacing them with new versions. They do have some purchasing authority and loan guarantees for certain things.

And that is typical with how we do things like that. We sell off our older equipment, and replace it with newer stuff.

However, even that is not quite accurate to what most people think. Most equipment (especially actual ordinance) has a shelf life. In general, most of it only lasts about 10-15 years. Then it needs to be either pulled out and inspected (a lengthy and expensive process), used (generally in training), or sold off. For most of the Soviet-Afghan War, we were not actually sending them the STINGER, but the REDEYE. That was the original version of the US MANPAD, and came out in 1962 and was manufactured until 1971. At that time it was replaced by the identical looking STINGER.

However, we still had a lot of REDEYE still sitting in bunkers. And how they operated was not as effective against jets, but it was effective against slower moving helicopters so that is what was sent to them. They only started to get the STINGER once the last of the REDEYE missiles in inventory were gone. The same missiles were sent to the Contras in Nicaragua. And even when they started to send STINGER, it was the older FIM-92 and FIM-92A, the main weapon had already moved in the US to the FIM-92B.

So in reality, it does nothing for the "Military-Industrial Complex", as the weapons and equipment sent is almost always our older stuff, that otherwise would simply have to be destroyed anyways. They just pull old stuff out of the ordinance bunkers and just inspect it and ship it off.

Quite often when I was at Fort Bliss, we would do life fire training with PATRIOT missiles. However, this training was never with the newer GEM or PAC-3 missiles. It was always with the older PAC-2 missiles that had spent the last decade in bunkers. And we knew it, as they actually only worked as expected about half the time. But when we did tests with newer ordinance it worked almost perfectly every time. They simply degrade in storage, and for the ones we used in training it was either "use them or they were going to get cooked".

And if you look at what is being sent to Ukraine, that becomes obvious. One of them is the M60 AVLB, a folding bridge that is carried and emplaced by an M60 tank hull. Now the actual equipment we use for that mission is now is the M1075 JABS, based on the M1 tank. However, we still have a lot of the old M60 AVLB in inventory, so that is a better option to send that instead of just scrapping them. We are also sending old export versions of the M1A2, which is about 3 generations behind what we are using or exporting now (M1A2 SEPv3 - also known as the M1A2C).

Nothing is being "made" for them, we are simply raiding our excess inventory and sending it over. Like the HIMARS, with the M31 rocket (circa 2005). The US expects to use the M31A2 and ER GMLRS if ever needed, but we still have a lot of the older M31 and M31A1 rockets in inventory.

 

[AZrailwhale]

And that is typical with how we do things like that. We sell off our older equipment, and replace it with newer stuff.

However, even that is not quite accurate to what most people think. Most equipment (especially actual ordinance) has a shelf life. In general, most of it only lasts about 10-15 years. Then it needs to be either pulled out and inspected (a lengthy and expensive process), used (generally in training), or sold off. For most of the Soviet-Afghan War, we were not actually sending them the STINGER, but the REDEYE. That was the original version of the US MANPAD, and came out in 1962 and was manufactured until 1971. At that time it was replaced by the identical looking STINGER.

However, we still had a lot of REDEYE still sitting in bunkers. And how they operated was not as effective against jets, but it was effective against slower moving helicopters so that is what was sent to them. They only started to get the STINGER once the last of the REDEYE missiles in inventory were gone. The same missiles were sent to the Contras in Nicaragua. And even when they started to send STINGER, it was the older FIM-92 and FIM-92A, the main weapon had already moved in the US to the FIM-92B.

So in reality, it does nothing for the "Military-Industrial Complex", as the weapons and equipment sent is almost always our older stuff, that otherwise would simply have to be destroyed anyways. They just pull old stuff out of the ordinance bunkers and just inspect it and ship it off.

Quite often when I was at Fort Bliss, we would do life fire training with PATRIOT missiles. However, this training was never with the newer GEM or PAC-3 missiles. It was always with the older PAC-2 missiles that had spent the last decade in bunkers. And we knew it, as they actually only worked as expected about half the time. But when we did tests with newer ordinance it worked almost perfectly every time. They simply degrade in storage, and for the ones we used in training it was either "use them or they were going to get cooked".

And if you look at what is being sent to Ukraine, that becomes obvious. One of them is the M60 AVLB, a folding bridge that is carried and emplaced by an M60 tank hull. Now the actual equipment we use for that mission is now is the M1075 JABS, based on the M1 tank. However, we still have a lot of the old M60 AVLB in inventory, so that is a better option to send that instead of just scrapping them. We are also sending old export versions of the M1A2, which is about 3 generations behind what we are using or exporting now (M1A2 SEPv3 - also known as the M1A2C).

Nothing is being "made" for them, we are simply raiding our excess inventory and sending it over. Like the HIMARS, with the M31 rocket (circa 2005). The US expects to use the M31A2 and ER GMLRS if ever needed, but we still have a lot of the older M31 and M31A1 rockets in inventory.

When I went through Basic the first time during Vietnam, we used overage M-72 LAWs for training. Nearly half of them malfunctioned, some as disastrously as one that I fired. The rocket motor on mine exploded in the tube. Fortunately for me, the designers of the LAW reinforced the tube next by the firer’s head so the significant explosion didn’t injure me.

 

[Mushroom]

When I went through Basic the first time during Vietnam, we used overage M-72 LAWs for training. Nearly half of them malfunctioned, some as disastrously as one that I fired.

One of the worst cases like that I experienced was in 1986. I was stationed at a Naval ammo depot, and one day they came up to us and told us we actually owned a second ordinance bunker that at one point was dropped off of our inventories. They went in, and it was full of everything from M16 and M60 ammunition to 40mm grenades and hand grenades. And to give an idea, the cases of hand grenades were Vietnam era M61 "Smooth Pineapple" style, something that had already been out of service for over a decade (replaced with the M26 "baseball" design).

And rather than send it to the furnace to be destroyed, they quickly arranged some training sessions at Camp Pendleton so we could expend them. The grenades failed about half the time, and EOD just remained there until they were all gone and collected the duds into a big pile and blew them with C4. About 1 rifle or machine gun round failed in 100, we just sent those to be incinerated once the training was done. The only surprise was that almost all of the 40mm explosive rounds worked perfectly. The only real problem was when lighting off the flares a lot of the parachutes failed to open so they just tumbled to the ground and burned there. And a 5 star cluster might only have 2 or 3 "stars".

The only thing that sucked was there were a dozen M202 "FLASH" 4 chamber rocket packs. That was the only ordinance we could not expend as the unit no longer had the launcher for them. So those were all sent to the incinerator.

 

[DudleySmith]

Its more like we're giving them our older munitions and replacing them with new versions. They do have some purchasing authority and loan guarantees for certain things.

I hadn't seen the number, but my gut was telling me the increased sales from other countries exceeded the total amount we were providing to Ukraine, this confirms that.

Not just US arms manufacturers either, all the Western arms manufacturers are booking big orders.

^^^Somebody who actually reads the news and informs themselves instead of relying on talk radio and Town Hall BDS.

 

[Mushroom]

Somebody who actually reads the news and informs themselves instead of relying on talk radio and Town Hall BDS.

That is almost always what the US has done for the last 70 years. Send off our older equipment sitting in storage.

Hell, that should be obvious immediately as we are sending them the folding bridges on M60 hulls.

The above is exactly what we are sending them, we have not used those in over a decade (the last units to use them were National Guard and those were phased out years ago).

This is the equipment we use today.

The problem is, many simply can not be bothered to do a single bit of research, and simply believe anything they are told.

 

[AZrailwhale]

One of the worst cases like that I experienced was in 1986. I was stationed at a Naval ammo depot, and one day they came up to us and told us we actually owned a second ordinance bunker that at one point was dropped off of our inventories. They went in, and it was full of everything from M16 and M60 ammunition to 40mm grenades and hand grenades. And to give an idea, the cases of hand grenades were Vietnam era M61 "Smooth Pineapple" style, something that had already been out of service for over a decade (replaced with the M26 "baseball" design).

And rather than send it to the furnace to be destroyed, they quickly arranged some training sessions at Camp Pendleton so we could expend them. The grenades failed about half the time, and EOD just remained there until they were all gone and collected the duds into a big pile and blew them with C4. About 1 rifle or machine gun round failed in 100, we just sent those to be incinerated once the training was done. The only surprise was that almost all of the 40mm explosive rounds worked perfectly. The only real problem was when lighting off the flares a lot of the parachutes failed to open so they just tumbled to the ground and burned there. And a 5 star cluster might only have 2 or 3 "stars".

The only thing that sucked was there were a dozen M202 "FLASH" 4 chamber rocket packs. That was the only ordinance we could not expend as the unit no longer had the launcher for them. So those were all sent to the incinerator.

What probably failed on the hand grenade was the time fuze that the striker was supposed to ignite when the spoon flew off. That was not high quality, that's why everyone was told the delay was between three and five seconds. The quality of the time fuze was very variable from lot to lot.

 

[Mushroom]

The quality of the time fuze was very variable from lot to lot.

Yep, and those grenades were at least 15 years old, and had never been inspected since they were thrown in the bunker back in the 1960s.

 

[Ringo]

There Has Never In History Been A Greater Need For A Large Anti-War Movement​

There Has Never In History Been A Greater Need For A Large Anti-War Movement

Listen to a reading of this article: Things are escalating more and more rapidly between the US-centralized power structure and the few remaining nations with the will and the means to stand against its demands for total obedience, namely China, Russia, and Iran. The world is becoming...

caitlinjohnstone.substack.com

 

[DudleySmith]

There Has Never In History Been A Greater Need For A Large Anti-War Movement​

There Has Never In History Been A Greater Need For A Large Anti-War Movement

Listen to a reading of this article: Things are escalating more and more rapidly between the US-centralized power structure and the few remaining nations with the will and the means to stand against its demands for total obedience, namely China, Russia, and Iran. The world is becoming...

caitlinjohnstone.substack.com

Yes, let's do nothing until a much bigger war is necessary to drive the vermin back into their holes. That's always worked great in the past, right?

Wrong.Every single time.

 

[para bellum]

Some interesting things on the trade registers.

I thought they were getting AIM-120B with NASAMS, turns out they are AIM-120C. And the Patriot battery will be the latest configuration.

This is broken out by year starting 2008 because some people think we were dumping arms into Ukraine before Putin's invasion. The Obama years are all together, then Trump, then the first year of Biden and then the post-invasion period.

The only thing I don't see are the Strykers, those must have been in 2023, the training is underway for those now.

How much of what and when, FWIW.

 

[Mushroom]

And the Patriot battery will be the latest configuration.

Actually, they are not.

The US is training them, but at this time they are getting a PATRIOT Battery from Germany. That is six launchers.

And Germany does not use the "Latest Configuration", only the US has that and it is still rolling them out to their own units. A normal PATRIOT Battery is composed of five PAC-2 launchers and one PAC-3 launcher.

And the PAC-3 came out in 1995, the PAC-2 in 1987.

And if the US does in the future provide them with launchers, I can promise it will not be the PAC-3 MSE. However, I am hearing that future upgrade plans are for each US Battery to be entirely PAC-3 and PAC-3 MSE. First replacing the PAC-2 launchers, until they will likely have 3 PAC-3 and 3 PAC-3 MSE. But that is still several years down the line.

And even your own reference states "PAC-3", which is not the newest configuration. That is almost 2 decades old now.

 

[para bellum]

And even your own reference states "PAC-3", which is not the newest configuration. That is almost 2 decades old now.

It says Patriot Configuration 3. I believe that's what we're using today?

There is a 3+, so that might be a little newer, but Configuration 3 uses the GEM-T missile and the PAC-3 missile.

Home

Raytheon Intelligence Space- Any Domain. Any Challenge.

www.raytheonmissilesanddefense.com

Raytheon: Raytheon News Release Archive

Operates four businesses. Technology and innovation leader specializing in defense, security and civil markets throughout the world.

raytheon.mediaroom.com

 

[DudleySmith]

A bit off-topic but I had thought this one got shut down by Cheney a long time ago. The WSJ ran an article on it the other day.

Iron Building of the U.S. Army Arsenal

Built entirely of cast iron and wrought iron elements, the Iron Building of the U.S. Arsenal is believed to be the oldest all-metal building in the United States.

www.asce.org

At a Steam-Age Arsenal, U.S. Army Forges Cannons for a Digital Era, War in Ukraine

Opened during the War of 1812, the Watervliet Arsenal has made big guns for every U.S. conflict since the Spanish-American War. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has made it relevant again.

www.wsj.com

... while high-tech systems are invaluable in short conflicts or for inspiring shock and awe, those pricey armaments aren’t sustainable for grinding wars of attrition, like in Ukraine, or against entrenched popular insurgencies, like in Iraq and Afghanistan. To control territory, large numbers of soldiers and big guns are still invaluable.

 

[Ringo]

A question for all supporters of fascist Ukraine.
Billions of dollars are being poured into Ukrainian fascists. Why wasn't this done long before the hostilities? Ukraine had enough russophobic presidents and russophobic policies, why not pour billions of dollars into the PEACE economy, to make Ukraine a picture of a successful country, where the citizens of the "petrol-station country" would run to get a happy life?
The answer is because the western scum don't care about the ukrainians, they are only interested in Ukraine as cannon fodder in the war with Russia.

 

[DudleySmith]

lol Russia invaded and tried to turn it into the shithole they turned Crimea into. Yes this needs repeating, since some here wake up in a whole new world every day and think yesterday's issues went away when they took their Prozac last night.