French Attack?

[editec]

Ed, did you even read what I wrote. Th eonly person who seems ignorant here is you. I clearly said the French did help, they were the final nail in the coffin to Britian.

And if you believe, as you apparently do, that that was the only assistance the French gave to the American revolution was a few troops and some Naval ops, you clearly don't know jackshit about that period.

Spain helped too, you know that right? Th ehistory guru that you are. For at least five years, Spain had sent more supplies and money than had been requested to help the American Rebels succeed in what must have appeared to be an impossible dream. Spanish men from the peninsula and throughout the Americas fought in the conflict.

Yes, Spain, Netherlands, even Russia pitched in to help embarrass the Brits. Damned near everybody hated the fucking Brits, then. Much like damned near everybody hates American imperialism, now, I might add.

However, make no mistake...The colonist di dthe majority of the fighting, to say otherwise is fucking stupid and wrong.

Nobody said otherwise, lightweight.

As a result of the victory of the Continental forces at Saratoga, Benjamin Franklin, who had gone to Paris as ambassador in 1776, was able to negotiate a Treaty of Amity and Commerce and a Treaty of Alliance with France. From this point, French support became increasingly significant. The French extended considerable financial support to the Congressional forces. France also supplied vital military arms and supplies, and loaned money to pay for their purchase.

As I said before though the high point was when the 5 battalions landed with naval forces and the French and Americans pounded Cornwallis until he evuntally surrendered.

Somebody's read their Wikipedia. Congrats on proving something that was never a point of contention.

Their support was undeniable, but don't act as if they did the majority of the fighting,

If you about done trying to put words in my mouth that I did NOT say, I'd appreciate it.

I'll say again what so obviously annoyed you: No French help, no United States of America.

You see anything about fighting or troops in the above?

Of course not. But instead of accepting the facts, you elect to rewrite my point because you clearly didn't know what I was talking about.

Nice try, but it isn't working...No French help, no United States.

Americans like you who bitch and whine about France are ignorant ingrates at best, and pandering Anglophilic knownothings at worst.

and quite simply, they took part in it for their own intrest not to see us free. British and French (and to a lesser extent, Dutch and Spanish) forces fought for colonial wealth and empire around the world. From 1778 through 1783 -- two years after the defeat of Cornwallis at Yorktown -- French forces fought the British in the West Indies, Africa and India.

Yes, it was still another world war. The second that century.

Whenever you want that clue, let me know....I think they deliver

Laddie, your Fracophobic nonsense got called by somebody who knows more about that subject than you do.

No big deal.

I was trying to play off your fractured history tales swipes, playfully, but apparently you can dish it out, but taking it hurts your feelings or something

Now, you're desperately trying teach your grandfather how to suck eggs.

Don't bother.

 

[RoadVirus]

The French actually turned an enemy back on their own??!! Wow! The Devil must be freezing his ass off.

 

[mightypeon]

Arfff, do I have to write all my posts again for Road Virus -.-

On a sidenote, to paraphrase a good Irish friend of mine on the subject of alcohol consumption:
Drink is a curse, it makes you quarrel with your neighbour, it makes you shoot at your landlord and it makes you miss him.

 

[Andrew2382]

And if you believe, as you apparently do, that that was the only assistance the French gave to the American revolution was a few troops and some Naval ops, you clearly don't know jackshit about that period.



Yes, Spain, Netherlands, even Russia pitched in to help embarrass the Brits. Damned near everybody hated the fucking Brits, then. Much like damned near everybody hates American imperialism, now, I might add.

No, they gave the colonist training and up to 8 battalions as well as supplies and money. You clearly don't know jack shit if you try to summaraize that as a few troops and a few naval ops.

Everyone hates the most powerful countries...It's been a common theme throughout time.

Somebody's read their Wikipedia. Congrats on proving something that was never a point of contention.

Actually it was a point of contention because you keep on saying how there would have been no United States with out French help....This may be true, this may not be true..quite frankly you don't fucking know. Perhaps Spain would have gotten more involved...Perhaps aid would have come from somewhere else. As you said before many other countries wanted to bring down England.

If you about done trying to put words in my mouth that I did NOT say, I'd appreciate it.

I'll say again what so obviously annoyed you: No French help, no United States of America.

You see anything about fighting or troops in the above?

Did I say that France did nothing to contribute to the victory of the colonist gaining independence from England? NO! However, it was the colonist blood that fell in battle.

Of course not. But instead of accepting the facts, you elect to rewrite my point because you clearly didn't know what I was talking about.

Nice try, but it isn't working...No French help, no United States.

This is what you fail to understand. I am not disputing that France did not help out, my point is that their help came towards the latter end. The most important thing France did (on the battlefield) was the battle of the Chesapeake where the French Navy squaked out a victory against the Royal Navy which in turn made Cornwallis trapped in Yorktown where American and French forces held the land an dthe French navy blocked his sea escape an dkept reinforcments from coming...which in turn ended the war...technically England didn't declare the war over till 2 years later until 1793...Cornwallis surrendered in 1781. France tried to capitlize on this with Spain by takin gover some territories in Europe however they were defeated by England at Gibralter.

Americans like you who bitch and whine about France are ignorant ingrates at best, and pandering Anglophilic knownothings at worst.

It's French Fags like you who bitch and whine how France was once a great super power and Americans owe everything to them, while over 40,000 dead American solders lay dead on French land because the country couldn't defend themselves for more then a month.

Laddie, your Fracophobic nonsense got called by somebody who knows more about that subject than you do.

No big deal.

I was trying to play off your fractured history tales swipes, playfully, but apparently you can dish it out, but taking it hurts your feelings or something

You apparently know jack shit, because I am the only one in this convo actually listing out facts about the war and you are doing jack shit except for making pointless comments. When you can dispute me on facts and actual battles that went down then you can open your mouth.

 

[Munin]

If you look at what the French military achieved in General, then I think they are still at least a couple of victories ahead of the Americans. The French were already fighting when America wasn't born yet and let s not forget that America only was "born" because of the French. Let s not forget that in parts around the world like Africa and Canada people still speak french because of the military accomplishments of the French.

When you look at the History of any nation that existed for a long period, then you will see a lot of Nations got their but kicked in the past but only a few of them who actually managed to have influenced the world very much through their victories. And let s also not forget that the US doesn't exist more then a fraction of the time then the Nation of France does.


"Whether the American Colonies would have had the necessary strength to implement the Declaration of Independence without the aid of France is problematical. Certainly the leaders of the rebelling colonists realized the importance of French assistance and began to seek, and to obtain, such help soon after the outbreak of the American Revolution. In the autumn of 1775, the Continental Congress appointed a Secret Committee of Foreign Correspondence. Early the next year the committee decided to send an agent to France to seek the aid of that Nation in the struggle against Great Britain. Silas Deane was selected for the task. Within a few months after his arrival in France, Deane, covertly aided by the French Government, obtained and sent to America clothing and arms in large quantities. At Deane's suggestion also, the Compte de Vergennes, French Minister of Foreign Affairs, obtained the King's permission to lend America money. Until 1778, France continued to give America all aid short of actual military support.

In addition, many French soldiers, as individuals, offered their assistance to the American cause. One of the most. conspicuous of these was the Marquis de Lafayette, who left wife, fortune, and, high social position to serve the cause of liberty. Popular with the American officers and a great favorite of General Washington, the young Marquis was an able general and played an important part in the defeat of the British General Cornwallis in the final campaign of the Revolution.

Congress, in September 1776, had appointed Benjamin Franklin and Arthur Lee as commissioners to France to collaborate with Deane in the transaction of diplomatic affairs and to work for a treaty of alliance. For slightly over a year the commission labored at its task. Then came the news of the American triumph at Saratoga. When word of this important victory reached the French King, he promptly sent word to the commissioners that he would sign a treaty such as had been proposed and that France would openly aid America with a fleet, troops, and money.

The Americans were greatly encouraged by the French alliance. Until then, the English had had the enormous advantage of supremacy at sea. Thenceforth, the French Fleet, wherever it might be, compelled England, in resisting French attacks, to use many ships which could otherwise have been used in transporting troops and supplies to America. The French Army greatly augmented American land forces, and the final victory over the British at Yorktown was made possible by the French Fleet and Army. Thus, throughout the long struggle of the Revolution, the sympathy and assistance of the French people were of incalculable value to the American cause."

Liberty State Park - Statue of Liberty - French Aid in American Revolution Basis of Long International Friendship


Lets not forget our history, right?

 

[tigerbob]

The difference between Australia and Argentina being that we didn't invade any British territory.....except for Lords, The Oval, Trent Bridge....but then you did launch the Barmy Army on us a few summers ago (oh and thank you for the money they pumped into our economy, it was very welcome )

Ah yes, the B.A. Never knowingly outdrunk.

I was in Cape Town a few months ago and watched the ODI between the Proteas and the Kiwis. A local told me that 2 summers previously England had been touring and on the first day of a Test, the B.A. had drunk dry the bar behind the mid wicket boundary before lunch. The South Africans apparently were hugely impressed.

Jeez, I miss cricket.

 

[pAr]

I'd hope for nothing else.

You still have hope? You bad, bad woman! Lemme know if you need something guud.

 

[Diuretic]

Ah yes, the B.A. Never knowingly outdrunk.

I was in Cape Town a few months ago and watched the ODI between the Proteas and the Kiwis. A local told me that 2 summers previously England had been touring and on the first day of a Test, the B.A. had drunk dry the bar behind the mid wicket boundary before lunch. The South Africans apparently were hugely impressed.

Jeez, I miss cricket.

The Sefricans smacked us (am I doing a thread drift? I am? Too bad) and good for them, they deserved to win and Smith is a bloody legend here now.

We would like the Barmey Army to return. Our brewers are getting a bit anxious and besides we could use the foreign currency. And given the weakened state of the Australian test team, England just might be on another Ashes winner.....

But seriously, the Barmey Army are huge favourites when they come here, it makes the summer even more enjoyable.

 

[elvis]

And yet the French - let's keep generalising shall we? - had civilians fighting in the Underground against the Vichy forces and the occupying Nazis.

People forget that the British were also defeated when the Nazis conquered France. They retreated across the English Channel after for some unknown miracle, Hitler didn't massacre them all at Dunquerque. Likewise, it's a miracle the Japanese didn't conduct their "Third Wave" at Pearl Harbor.

 

[Diuretic]

People forget that the British were also defeated when the Nazis conquered France. They retreated across the English Channel after for some unknown miracle, Hitler didn't massacre them all at Dunquerque. Likewise, it's a miracle the Japanese didn't conduct their "Third Wave" at Pearl Harbor.

I won't forget the BEF being defeated nor the efforts which went to getting the BEF back to Britain.

The Evacuation of Dunkirk, 1940

Nor will I forget the fact that Britain stood virtually alone against Germany during 1940 and then endured the Blitz yet still kept fighting against Germany.

 

[Anguille]

I've always enjoyed La Chanson de Roland.

Not that it adds much to the discussion, just thought I'd tell you all about it.

And let's not forget Bayard!

Okay, as you were.

Are you blowing your olifant?

 

[tigerbob]

I won't forget the BEF being defeated nor the efforts which went to getting the BEF back to Britain.

The Evacuation of Dunkirk, 1940

Nor will I forget the fact that Britain stood virtually alone against Germany during 1940 and then endured the Blitz yet still kept fighting against Germany.

The evacuation of Dunkirk was a huge shot in the arm for British pride at a time when it was badly needed. Literally snatching a sort of victory from the jaws of defeat.

The Battle of Britain was basically the first real tipping point of the war, but for Londoners it was not nearly as bad as The Blitz which Edward Murrow reported on so vividly for CBS.

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My mother used to tell a funny story about one evening when she was going in to work (she was an opera singer) with a colleague called Pauline. Walking down the street, they heard the familiar drone of a 'doodlebug' (a V1 rocket). Hearing the drone was a several times a day occurrence - what you didn't want to hear was the sound stop, because that meant it was coming down right on top of you. On this occasion that is what happened.

Apparently, they looked round in panic, saw a flight of steps leading down into a basement and ran down them and through the door at the bottom, where a very gay man looked up with a smile and said "I can do you right now if you like".

The doodlebug dropped 2 streets away killing 8 people, and 20 minutes later, Mum and Pauline reemerged from the basement with their ears pierced.

 

[Diuretic]

Are you blowing your olifant?

No, just pulling a leg or two

When I was a kid I had a book about Bayard, I remember being highly impressed - sans peur et sans reproche - my French is really crappy but I always remembered that phrase.

And I first knew about Roland of Roncesvalles from reading a comic book of all things. I was intrigued and tried to find out a bit more. And I get a big kick out of the streetcar in Toronto that announces on the front that it's heading to Roncesvalles - yeah I know, small things amuse small minds

 

[Diuretic]

............
My mother used to tell a funny story about one evening when she was going in to work (she was an opera singer) with a colleague called Pauline. Walking down the street, they heard the familiar drone of a 'doodlebug' (a V1 rocket). Hearing the drone was a several times a day occurrence - what you didn't want to hear was the sound stop, because that meant it was coming down right on top of you. On this occasion that is what happened.

Apparently, they looked round in panic, saw a flight of steps leading down into a basement and ran down them and through the door at the bottom, where a very gay man looked up with a smile and said "I can do you right now if you like".

The doodlebug dropped 2 streets away killing 8 people, and 20 minutes later, Mum and Pauline reemerged from the basement with their ears pierced.

My father was an ARP Warden before he joined the RAF during WWII, he told me a story of him being out on the streets (Lambeth, South London) working when he heard the sound of explosions and he was pretty certain that bombs were about to rain down on the buildings right near him. By the light of some burning buildings he saw a big object on the footpath that he could take cover behind to try and avoid shrapnel so he dived behind it in a flat panic. When the wave had passed he stood up and saw that he'd been sheltering behind a housebrick, a single housebrick.

 

[Diuretic]

That Ed Murrow clip is a classic, I first heard it on a radio doco, it's brilliant.

 

[Bootneck]

I went to the doctor today to talk about contraception.
She said "You could try French letters".
I said "What's that?"
She said "Condoms"
I said "I don't like them".
So she said "You should try the French Army method then".
I said "What's that?"
She said "You pull out before you get into trouble!".

 

[morpheus]

If French "losses" include being booted out after having effectively invaded and occupied (for several years) Britain, Canada, Germany, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, the Low Countries, West Africa, and North Africa, then shouldn't we also say that Britain's, Germany's, and America's histories are also littered with military losses? Or do we prefer that France was still running a global empire today, and are bitter that the empire declined?

Editec puts it perfectly:

Yes, some Americans are told a load of francophobic nonsense and of course since it suits their preconceived prejudices after years of Anglophilic propaganda, naturally they buy it whole clothe.

My question is, why are some Americans hell-bent on constantly ripping France, and hijacking an otherwise intelligent discussion on the piracy problems off the coast of Somalia? I'm curious where this francophobia and hatred is rooted. Can someone provide some insight? And isn't this hypocrisy, given how much we complain about anti-Americanism abroad (which is far more widespread around the world than anti-Frenchism)? Maybe we need to rip on past superpowers in order to cope with our own declining empire? Why do Americans have such a fixation with WWII, but a complete loss of memory for everything that's occurred since then? Last I checked, Vietnam wasn't a success (of course, this is the "fault of liberals"), but even the initially popular 2003 Iraq invasion was an ill-conceived disaster until [arguably] the 2007 military surge after which Afghanistan took a severely sour turn. And even the effectiveness of the surge is not considered sustainable by Middle East experts. Fuck, even the Korean War -which has been spun into a victory by the military-industrial propaganda complex- in reality ended in a truce. But again, let's wave WWII in everyone's face, demanding that the world owes us big, and completely disregard the help of the Brits, Canadians, and Russians without whom it's uncertain if we'd win (let alone underground resistance movements in Europe and Asia). And our righteous actions in WWII then somehow justify our meddling in domestic affairs of foreign nations since then, removing heads of state and installing dictators wherever we saw fit, while lecturing the world on democracy. And then -somehow- American foreign policy's biggest cheerleaders -the mass media- have a "liberal and anti-American bias".

Are we bitter that our own empire has shown its first signs of decline? Are we bitter that France opposed our invasion of Iraq, even though most of us now admit that was a mistake? So, we want the world to blindly follow us even when we're wrong, rather than point it out to us when we're making a grave mistake? Isn't that what allies are for, anyways? Even after we refused to share our intelligence (on Islamic terrorism) with the France after the bombing of the Paris Metro and hijacking of an Air France flight in the 1990s, they still backed us 100% on Afghanistan and now back us 100% on Iran. But they had the dignity to diplomatically oppose what they thought was a mistake on our part, and we didn't like that. We preach democracy, but we don't like it when the majority of UN and Security Council members don't vote along the same lines as us. That's when we start to rip on the world, and discredit the UN, even though, since the late 1980s, the United States has been using its Security Council veto more often than any other Security Council member. And then we dug deep and found some vague economic ties between France and Iraq -completely ignoring our own role with arming Saddam Hussein in the 1980s, turning a blind eye to his genocide against the Kurds, and encouraging his intentions to annex Kuwait- only to quietly hush down when light was shed on underground economic dealings between prominent Americans and American companies and post-Gulf War Iraq.

Ironically, French public opinion -while certainly in opposition to the Iraq invasion- did not oppose it as much as other European countries did. 65% of French citizens opposed the war, according to Gallup (about the same amount of Britons), while levels in other countries were significantly higher (around 75% in Germany, 88% in Italy, 90% in Spain and Switzerland, to the best of my memory). But, of course, you can always count on Americans to dutifully believe and do as they're told, and give the war a 65% approval rating, with a one-sided media manipulated by the Pentagon and corporate interests, broadcasting pro-war propaganda to the American public until it was too late (2006-ish).

 

[Andrew2382]

As General patton said

I'd rather have a german divison in front of me then a French one behind me...At least I know the German one will be there in the morning.

 

[Anguille]

My question is, why are some Americans hell-bent on constantly ripping France, and hijacking an otherwise intelligent discussion on the piracy problems off the coast of Somalia? I'm curious where this francophobia and hatred is rooted. Can someone provide some insight?

Evidemment ces francophobes ont étés fait porter les cornes par des français.

 

[Diuretic]

I thought it had something to do with France not being sucked in to invade Iraq. Wasn't that when the Freedom Fries bullshit childishness started?

But small point Morpheus, France didn't invade Britain. Napeoleon wanted to, with his grand armee (can't do the accent, forget how the keyboard wants to be tickled) but there he was stuck near Boulogne-sur-mer because of the weather. Perfidious Albion indeed!

If you mean Guillaume of Normandy, yes, but he stayed