Dogmaphobe
Diamond Member
You could always try saying it is wrong.
Jumping in to defend without even a hint that you find it objectionable gives quite the different appearance than were you to denounce it for what it is.
Foreign sexual molesters hassle women on "Carnival of Cultures" in Berlin "Cologne style"
- Thread starter Bleipriester
- Start date
You could always try saying it is wrong.
Jumping in to defend without even a hint that you find it objectionable gives quite the different appearance than were you to denounce it for what it is.
You took my comment completely out of context.
First of all, this is what I was replying to:
And second, you snipped my quote - this is the entirety of it, and keep in mind - IT WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE.
Given that, what am I supposed to say "is wrong"? Integration? Uncovering the facts?
What is wrong with uncovering the facts FIRST before rushing to judgement?
Dogmaphobe
Diamond Member
Nothing at all was taken out of context. You were asked if you were a Muslim -- presumably, because of your extreme degree of identification with all things Islamic along with your automatic defense thereof -- and asked what you thought of the unfolding of events in Europe. Your only response was to talk about "hysteria".
My response to you had to do with measures you could take to differentiate your own positions from those of the most hardened Islamist. You did not criticize the practice of gang rape. You did not criticize the obvious misogyny involved. You did not criticize the way men were working in concert to target the women of their new host country. You did not acknowledge the Islamic nature of such behavior. You did not find anything wrong with the racist nature of the attacks. All you did was defend by trying to distract the conversation by trying to portray this behavior as being no different than European behavior.
You talk about "facts" while indulging in your own assumptions that are so completely inconsistent with established patterns of behavior as to indicate an intent to deny them rather than any actual exploration into the behavior involved.
It absolutely was taken out of context.
The gist of my response was: First stick to the truth and try to uncover the facts, rather than rely on hysteria.
If you rush to judgement, ahead of examining the evidence - you create hysteria and a hell of a lot of unfounded "hoaxes" that get repeated as "facts" that are used to broad brush entire groups.
There are plenty of examples of this historically, the Salem witch trials, for one - where suddenly masses of people were coming forward claiming to be victims of witchcraft, and accusing anyone who seemed odd or annoying of witchcraft.
Another example, more modern day is accusations of child molestation (and how much do you want to bet someone is going to take this and distort it to claim I somehow "excuse" child abuse) - back when such things as Megan's law were being formed to protect children from predators, there were also a lot of unfounded accusations flying about due, in part, to heavy media exposure of child predators, public fear, and some rather dodgy psychiatric methods of trying to determine if a very young child has been molested. The end result was, not unlike the Salem witch trials - you had some legitimate cases, and you had some questionable cases and you had some outright fraudulant cases. I remember two: one, a highschool coach accused by one student, then several students, who eventually recanted and said they had made it up. Another case involved a daycare run by a couple and this one was particularly ugly - they were found innocent, but their lives were ruined (where's there's smoke there's fire sort of thing). Rape and child molestation are particularly ugly crimes - at least in our culture - child rapists aren't even tolerated by other criminals. If a person is innocent - it doesn't matter, because they will be forever tainted. When you broad brush that to an entire ethnic or religious group, it's even uglier. That's why I think it's important to examine the facts, and put them in a proper context. When you don't, you perpetrate hoaxes about groups that get repeated so often they are uncritically accepted as truth.
Look at the ones below - how many of them have you just assumed are truth? I've seem them bandied about here as "facts".
For example...
Sharia Law Muslim 'No-Go' Zones
FALSE: Paris Under Muslim Siege
Muslims in Japan
Muslim Men Can Have 4 Wives on Welfare in Michigan?
Muslim Men Auctioning off Women in England
Blackout of Muslims Chanting 'Death to America' on Video?
Muslim Demographics
Muslim Government in the U.S.
City in Michigan First to Fully Implement Sharia Law
That is a lie.
Rape
Isis' Theology of Rape
84 schools in England show NO white British pupils...
Let's rape each other a little.
Americas Rape Culture
Americas Rape Culture
Israeli warden charged with rape assault
Israeli warden charged with rape assault
Israeli warden charged with rape assault
Worst Places for Women
Congolese Doctor Denis Mukwege Receives Sakharov Prize
etc.
I want to see facts from reputable sources confirming that it was based on "Islam", that it was "racist" as opposed to cultural misogyny. I'd like to see facts as to how many incidents actually occurred before jumping on the bandwagon. And I've stated that if the law is broken, they should be punished. Refusing to accept your "analysis" is not "defending" anything it's asking for facts not opinion.
What "assumptions" specifically? I try to provide sources to support my "assumptions" - where have I erred?
defcon4
Platinum Member
- Jan 26, 2015
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..and you will not. MSM is carefully controls the news as it fits their agenda.
ESay
Gold Member
- Mar 14, 2015
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Actually, it was me who used the word “hysteria” first. If you read my question and then read Coyote’s answer, you will see why she used this word.
Dogmaphobe
Diamond Member
That is certainly quite the huge number of words and links devoted towards the avoidance of any statement that might hint that there is anything wrong with Muslim rape gangs targeting European women.
The "Witch hunt" reference couldn't be further from the truth. The European press is burying this phenomenon rather than highlighting it.
.
I think you miss the point. ANY rape is wrong, regardless of who does it.
I think the "witch hunt" reference is very apt - mass hysteria, mass reports, mass groupthink - and - what are the facts in these incidents? We know at least one was utterly made up. Why are people so resistant to examining the facts - applying critical thinking - especially to highly inflammatory and serious claims such as rape. What's the one thing that can fire up people to violence and lynchings? "they're raping our women and children" - it's been used throughout history to inflame gang violence, usually targeting innocent people.
Integration of immigrants in Germany....
This article (from 2011) gives one perspective of Muslim immigrants in secular Europe and the prospects of integration - it points out some very real culture clashes, driven by multiple factors.
The Major Roadblock to Muslim Assimilation in Europe
While dutifully disavowing such groups, my leftish friends, like so many Europeans, asked why European Muslims weren't doing more to assimilate and respect the culture of their new countries. And this brings us to the issue at hand: there is a clash of values, one which will make it considerably harder to find a path of compromise between Muslims and the rest of Europe.
Secularism, as its understood and practiced in Europe, is not value-neutral. It asks conservative Muslims to be something that they're likely not. "Secularism," the thinking goes, allows all groups, including Muslims, to practice their religion as they see fit. This assumes that the practice of religion is fundamentally a personal, private act detached from public, political life. It is here that Islam (how it is understood, if not necessarily practiced by most Muslims) and Europe's traditional identity and culture find themselves at odds.
It is this expectation or, rather, hope -- that Islam will somehow cease to be what it is -- that colors so many debates not just in Europe but also in a rapidly changing Middle East.
There is, in fact, something uniquely "uncompromising" about Islam, at least compared to other faiths. This is not a value judgment but rather a descriptive statement about what Islam is today (rather than what it could or should be). Many Muslims take pride in this very fact. It is this unwillingness to compromise in the face of secularizing pressures, they would say, that makes Islam both vibrant and distinctive. Indeed, Islam has proven remarkably resistant to the persistent attempts to relegate it to the private sphere...
Secularism, as its understood and practiced in Europe, is not value-neutral. It asks conservative Muslims to be something that they're likely not. "Secularism," the thinking goes, allows all groups, including Muslims, to practice their religion as they see fit. This assumes that the practice of religion is fundamentally a personal, private act detached from public, political life. It is here that Islam (how it is understood, if not necessarily practiced by most Muslims) and Europe's traditional identity and culture find themselves at odds.
It is this expectation or, rather, hope -- that Islam will somehow cease to be what it is -- that colors so many debates not just in Europe but also in a rapidly changing Middle East.
There is, in fact, something uniquely "uncompromising" about Islam, at least compared to other faiths. This is not a value judgment but rather a descriptive statement about what Islam is today (rather than what it could or should be). Many Muslims take pride in this very fact. It is this unwillingness to compromise in the face of secularizing pressures, they would say, that makes Islam both vibrant and distinctive. Indeed, Islam has proven remarkably resistant to the persistent attempts to relegate it to the private sphere...
This article, provides another perspective from an Arab newspaper:
How Europe fights against Muslim assimilation
Muslims and Islam have been the center of the cultural debate in Europe since 9/11, particularly when countries relaxed immigration requirements. The debate has intensified as Europe struggles to overcome its economic malaise. An estimated 20 million Muslims live among the European Union’s 500 million people. According to the Brookings Institution, France has the largest Muslim population at 8 percent, the Netherlands has a 6 percent Muslim population, Germany at 4 percent, and the United Kingdom’s Muslim population is estimated at 3 percent.
Right-wing political parties have gained wide acceptance among Europeans by seizing on voters’ worst fears that immigrants are responsible for stealing jobs and causing the crime rate to soar. Yet they often contradict themselves by complaining Muslims segregate themselves from society by living in crime-ridden ghettos — and perhaps forgetting few people want to live in crime-ridden ghettos — or that Muslims are forcing their culture and religion on European society. Leading the charge with such specious arguments are Dutch politician Geert Wilders’ Freedom Party, Switzerland’s Swiss People’s Party and the Federal Democratic Union, and Germany’s Christian Democratic Union.
Most Muslims clearly want to assimilate into European society. The 2005 riots in predominately Muslim neighborhoods in Paris had nothing to do with religion, as right-wing extremists would have the white middle class believe, but about wanting employment and a piece of the European economic pie. Like most bigoted arguments about ethnicity and religion, there is a kernel of truth in some Muslims refusing to assimilate into society. The language barrier faced by first-generation immigrants, refusing to live in neighborhoods where alcohol and nightclubs are abundant, and the urgent desire for protection and comfort among people who share similar values all lead to self-segregation.
To native Europeans, self-segregation gives rise to Islamic extremism and jihadists. However, as Jocelyne Cesari points out in her book “When Islam and Democracy Meet,” people need to make the distinction between what is a religious conservative and what is a jihadist.
Yet the very people who demand assimilation into European society work diligently to prevent it. France and Belgium banned the burqa in all public places. France also prohibits the hijab in public institutions. Switzerland passed legislation preventing the construction of minarets on mosques. Add to the mix private businesses refusing to allow Muslim women wearing Islamic bathing suits to enter public pools and beaches, and banks routinely refusing to serve hijab-and niqab-wearing female customers.
Most Muslims clearly want to assimilate into European society. The 2005 riots in predominately Muslim neighborhoods in Paris had nothing to do with religion, as right-wing extremists would have the white middle class believe, but about wanting employment and a piece of the European economic pie. Like most bigoted arguments about ethnicity and religion, there is a kernel of truth in some Muslims refusing to assimilate into society. The language barrier faced by first-generation immigrants, refusing to live in neighborhoods where alcohol and nightclubs are abundant, and the urgent desire for protection and comfort among people who share similar values all lead to self-segregation.
To native Europeans, self-segregation gives rise to Islamic extremism and jihadists. However, as Jocelyne Cesari points out in her book “When Islam and Democracy Meet,” people need to make the distinction between what is a religious conservative and what is a jihadist.
Yet the very people who demand assimilation into European society work diligently to prevent it. France and Belgium banned the burqa in all public places. France also prohibits the hijab in public institutions. Switzerland passed legislation preventing the construction of minarets on mosques. Add to the mix private businesses refusing to allow Muslim women wearing Islamic bathing suits to enter public pools and beaches, and banks routinely refusing to serve hijab-and niqab-wearing female customers.
And this article, which compares European and American Muslims, and integration: http://www.economist.com/news/unite...-better-america-europe-islamic-yet-integrated
America’s Muslims differ from Europe’s in both quantity and origin. The census does not ask about faith, but estimates put the number of Muslims in the country at around 1% of the population, compared with 4.5% in Britain and 5% in Germany. Moreover, American Islam is not dominated by a single sect or ethnicity. When the Pew Research Centre last tried to count, in 2011, it found Muslims from 77 countries in America. Most western European countries, by contrast, have one or two dominant groups—Algerians in France, Moroccans and Turks in Holland. This matters because the jumble of groups in America makes it harder for Muslim immigrants and their descendants to lead a life apart. Different traditions get squashed together. When building mosques, says Chris McCoy, a Kentucky native who is a prolific architect of Islamic buildings, “the question is usually not whether we should have an Indian- or a Saudi-style dome but, can we afford a dome?” Mixing breeds tolerance: Pew found that most American Muslims think that their faith is open to multiple interpretations, making them the Episcopalians of the Islamic world.
America’s Muslims are better off than their European co-religionists. They are almost as likely as other Americans to report a household income of $100,000 or more. The same cannot be said of the Pakistanis who came to work in the now-defunct textile mills of northern England or the Turks who became guest workers in West Germany. Many American Muslims arrived in the 1970s to complete their higher education and ended up staying. Muzammil Siddiqi, chairman of the Fiqh Council of North America, which issues fatwas, or religious opinions, to guide the behaviour of the country’s Muslims, is typical: he was born in India and holds a Harvard PhD in comparative religion.
There is a stark contrast between this group and some of the more recent immigrants from Somalia, who have fewer qualifications and lower wages (as do African-American Muslims, who make up about an eighth of the total). This divide, if anything, makes America’s Muslims look more like the nation as a whole.
On various measures of integration, Muslims score fairly well (see chart). A Pew study from 2011 found that 15% of Muslims who are married or living with someone have a spouse of a different faith. This may sound low, but it is higher than the intermarriage rate for American Jews at a comparable moment in their history, and above that of modern Mormons. According to the Pentagon, there were 3,600 Muslims on active duty in the armed forces in January 2012, the most recent date for which numbers are available. This reflects a plan to recruit Muslims to fight in Islamic countries where an ability to speak Arabic or Pashto is helpful.
Culture clashes, but heavily influenced by economic issues/disparities, immigrant communities that consist of large majorities of only one ethnicity, cultural expectations.
Dogmaphobe
Diamond Member
Have you considered telling this to the people of Rotherham?
Doing so in person might be best.
And you totally miss my point.
Not just German men, but every European nationality where they have a 5% plus population figure
No we see it very clearly when you state that rape is wrong, eviction is wrong, arrest for criminal activity is wrong. But more so when it is muslims on the receiving end of the stigma. They are psychopathic mass murdering rapist scum that have no place in a civilised culture so should be evicted and left to wallow in their own self pity. They have had 1400 years to grow up and become valuable members of the human race and still they act as if it was the 7C
Most of the perpetrators happen to be muslims, and it is done as a form of terrorism. But you refuse to see that aspect because it would burst your bubble
Not applicable as this is no longer followed by Christians or Jews, so try again with an up to date incident. I don't see American leaders telling their troops to follow the above commands, but we do see muslim leaders preaching it.
They are the facts and it is the truth and their culture is that of islam, which is the same in all Islamic nations and muslim enclaves. The problem with the US is it is too far away to travel to illegally so you don't have a muslim problem yet, so you are not facing what Europe and Africa is facing. The day will come when the US brings in gun controls and then the muslims will be flocking there as they did to Palestine. A simple algorithm is for every legal muslim there are two other that are illegal .
THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER TO THE PROBLEM, SEND THEM ALL BACK TO SAUDI WHERE THEY ORIGINATED
No go areas are rife in the UK, mostly sharia ran muslim enclaves that look like the Warsaw Ghetto
Has been and we have seen the video's and picture's to prove it
Very few and far between, they are against a culture that is similar to their own
They can if they use the right forms
TRUE and it was common with 12 and 13 year old girls 12 years ago
Would not know
All you read is true and the facts support it
If you have a muslim community then they will have a sharia court
Possible as it has happened in the UK.
Over 20 cases in Germany alone since last year, and in each case it has been gangs of muslims involved. that is a fact. In the UK the courts have said that the attacks on white girls were racist terrorism
No get it right you want to believe that one was made up so that you can concentrate on that one and ignore the rest.
The facts are that violent crime has increased as migration has increased. Sex crimes have increased as migration has increased. Child rape has increased as migration has increased. Racist attacks on Jews and Christians have increased as migration has increased. Can you see the common denominator in all this, correct it is migrants. Don't need to inflame peoples feelings when the facts speak for themselves, and in this case as far back as 1990 the people in Ritherham and Rochdale were complaining about the rape of 12 year old girls by muslims. The government action was to arrest those complaining and threaten them with prison.
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