For those of you that believe "From river to sea, Palestine must be free"... answer this!

Israel has used enough of its power to contain Gaza and strictly control what or who goes in or out for decades. It has the power to punish the entire population for the actions of Hamas and yet it allowed Hamas to be funded. The only reason they hadn’t gone in the way they did now was lack of political will and October 7 and subsequent internal and international support gave them enough of a reason to finally do the unthinkable. And yes, it is existential to the Palestinians, it’s happening, at a much lower level in the West Bank.

Israel no different than other nations. Nations are not inherently moral or good or bad. They change over time.

The Israelis under Netanyahu showed a monumental amount of restraint for the Gaza Palestinians, even when Hamas started launching missiles from within Gaza in 2025. But the Oct. 7 attack on innocent Israeli civilians was the last straw. From that point on, Israel had every right to search out and destroy every member of Hamas within Gaza. And if Palestinians got killed in the process, to bad. They never should have elected Hamas to a parliamentary majority in the 2006 legislative elections. That was the last time a legislative election was held in the Palestinian territories, BTW.
 
I don’t agree, war doesn’t exclude genocide.
It would largely exclude genocide, as you would have to distinguish between acts of war and acts of genocide (with intent to exterminate) and prove the latter. Can you think of examples that would be considered an act of genocide, but not an act of war?
Genocide can and has occurred in armed conflict.
In the Shoah. No state has ever been convicted of the crime of genocide.
And we aren’t talking about the destruction of one corner of one building.
We are in the context of that one example which "proves" that Israel intends to:
  1. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
The "proof" is that Israel hit an IVF clinic, popped the lid off some nitrogen tanks, and several thousand embryos were destroyed. Without the context of the conflict between two military forces. That is malicious manipulation of the narrative.
You made the point, and it was a good one, that that did not matter, it was a form of victim blaming. What Hamas that day was 100% on Hamas, not Israel.

That same point applies here. What Israel is doing now to the Palestinian civilians is independent of the larger conflict, these actions are on Israel.
I stand by my point. What Hamas did that day is 100% on Hamas. What Hamas did leading up to that day in preparation (developing the military infrastructure, weapons, plans) is 100% on Hamas. These were unilateral actions committed by Hamas with no Israeli involvement. Response to these unilateral actions is not equivalent. Israel's responsibility in its response to belligerent invasion and atrocities is only to stay within the confines of humanitarian law, which she has.

Israel is doing nothing to the civilians of Gaza which is not in the context of the conflict. If you have different receipts, bring them.
 
It would largely exclude genocide, as you would have to distinguish between acts of war and acts of genocide (with intent to exterminate) and prove the latter. Can you think of examples that would be considered an act of genocide, but not an act of war?

In the Shoah. No state has ever been convicted of the crime of genocide.

We are in the context of that one example which "proves" that Israel intends to:
  1. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
The "proof" is that Israel hit an IVF clinic, popped the lid off some nitrogen tanks, and several thousand embryos were destroyed. Without the context of the conflict between two military forces. That is malicious manipulation of the narrative.

I stand by my point. What Hamas did that day is 100% on Hamas. What Hamas did leading up to that day in preparation (developing the military infrastructure, weapons, plans) is 100% on Hamas. These were unilateral actions committed by Hamas with no Israeli involvement. Response to these unilateral actions is not equivalent. Israel's responsibility in its response to belligerent invasion and atrocities is only to stay within the confines of humanitarian law, which she has.

Israel is doing nothing to the civilians of Gaza which is not in the context of the conflict. If you have different receipts, bring them.
I have to go to bed soon as tomorrow is a work day (ugh)…I take issue with that last sentence - it is so broad that that rationale can be used cover anything, even genocide since it is war.
 
Israel has used enough of its power to contain Gaza and strictly control what or who goes in or out for decades.
Not genocide. And not an existential threat. And easily solved by not being an existential threat to Israel.

Words mean things. Again, I'd invite you to say what you actually mean, instead of throwing words around which are not equivalent to your actual meaning. If you had said, "Israel has control over its own borders and has a sea blockade on Gaza" I would have agreed with you.
It has the power to punish the entire population for the actions of Hamas
And yet, it hasn't.
 
It would largely exclude genocide, as you would have to distinguish between acts of war and acts of genocide (with intent to exterminate) and prove the latter. Can you think of examples that would be considered an act of genocide, but not an act of war?

In the Shoah. No state has ever been convicted of the crime of genocide.

We are in the context of that one example which "proves" that Israel intends to:
  1. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
The "proof" is that Israel hit an IVF clinic, popped the lid off some nitrogen tanks, and several thousand embryos were destroyed. Without the context of the conflict between two military forces. That is malicious manipulation of the narrative.

I stand by my point. What Hamas did that day is 100% on Hamas. What Hamas did leading up to that day in preparation (developing the military infrastructure, weapons, plans) is 100% on Hamas. These were unilateral actions committed by Hamas with no Israeli involvement. Response to these unilateral actions is not equivalent. Israel's responsibility in its response to belligerent invasion and atrocities is only to stay within the confines of humanitarian law, which she has.

Israel is doing nothing to the civilians of Gaza which is not in the context of the conflict. If you have different receipts, bring them.

Nobody cried "genocide" when over 25,000 German civilians were incinerated in the fire-bombing of Dresden, Germany in WW2. And that was only one city. Estimates for the total number of German civilians killed during World War II range from 1.5 million to 3 million. That's far more than the estimated 70,000 Palestinians that have been killed in Gaza, after the October 7 attack on Israel.
 
I was answering a specific question you had asked and that question was not what evidence do you have to support the claim of genocide.

The reasons which persuaded me were those given by scholars of genocide who were first interviewed a year ago and then again more recently. I’ll post segments below (it is a bit long):

Is Israel committing genocide? Reexamining the question, a year later.

Last October, my Vox colleague Sigal Samuel and I interviewed scholars about how to think through those allegations of genocide. At that time, some were willing to definitively call what was happening in Gaza a genocide. But most were hesitant, citing the high threshold required to establish genocide under international law. Several said “crimes against humanity” or “war crimes,” which hold equal weight under international law, had likely been committed, but withheld judgment on genocide.

… In light of those developments, I went back to the scholars we cited and spoke to last fall to see if their thinking about allegations of genocide against Israel had changed over the last year. Of the five who responded, most of them were now more confident the legal requirements for genocide had been met. If an official determination of genocide by the ICJ follows, that could have critical legal and political consequences.

First, some background: There are different ways to conceptualize genocide, but the ICJ is concerned only with its legal definition under the Genocide Convention, the international treaty criminalizing genocide that went into effect in 1951 and has been ratified by 153 countries, including Israel and its closest ally, the US.

… A nation must bring genocide charges against another at the ICJ, providing evidence that the state itself (not just certain individuals) committed genocide.

Under the Genocide Convention, genocide is “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such”:
  • Killing members of the group
  • Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
Those five physical acts can be measured, but it turns out “intent to destroy” is incredibly difficult to prove — and that has been the sticking point in the debate over whether Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, where the physical component of the crime is already demonstrably satisfied given the overwhelming number of Palestinian civilian casualties.

Intent has been central to nearly every other debate over genocide as well, and the high bar for proving intent has made international court findings of genocide rare.

Only three genocides have been officially recognized under the definition of the term in the Genocide Convention and led to trials in international criminal tribunals: one against Cham Muslim and ethnic Vietnamese people perpetrated by Khmer Rouge leaders in Cambodia in the 1970s, the 1994 Rwandan genocide, and the 1995 Srebrenica Massacre in Bosnia. (The Holocaust occurred before the adoption of the 1948 Convention.)

UN investigations found the mass killings of the Yazidis by ISIS in Iraq and of the Rohingya in Myanmar constituted genocide. Though the US called the killing of the Masalit and other ethnic groups in the Sudanese region of Darfur between 2003 and 2005 “genocide,” a UN investigation ruled it was not. That may have caused the conflict to extend longer than it would have if a finding of genocide had been made, and gave the Sudanese government diplomatic cover to continue its campaign, despite widespread international condemnation.

Is Israel committing genocide:

Raz Segal

One of the first scholars to say Israel was committing genocide was Raz Segal, a professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University, who called it a “textbook case” in Jewish Currents just days after Hamas’s October 7, 2023, attack on Israel. Ahead of the one-year anniversary of Hamas’s attack, he told me he wished he had been wrong.

“I fully stand behind my description of Israel’s attack on Gaza as a ‘textbook case of genocide’ because we’re still actually seeing, nearly a year into this genocidal assault, explicit and unashamed statements of intent to destroy,” he said. “The way that intent is expressed here is absolutely unprecedented.”

…Several other scholars who Vox spoke with last fall, at that point reluctant to say Israel was committing genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention, now appear to agree with Segal.

Adam Jones

“Any early hesitation I had about applying the ‘genocide’ label to the Israeli attack on Gaza has dissipated over the past year of human slaughter and the obliteration of homes, infrastructure, and communities,” said Adam Jones, a professor of political science at the University of British Columbia who has written a textbook on genocide. “There is plenty of this demonization and dehumanization on the other side as well, but whatever peace constituency existed in Israel seems to have vanished, and there is a growing consensus for genocidal war, mass population transfer, and long-term eradication of Palestinian culture and identity.”


Among other things, Jones noted Israeli leadership’s recent plans to expel the entire remaining civilian population of northern Gaza and turn the territory into a military zone where no aid would be allowed as influencing his thinking on the issue. There is no indication of whether civilians would ever be allowed to return. This could be taken as an example of the kind of “state or organizational plan or policy” necessary to prove genocidal intent, he said. Though the plan, if it has been implemented, has not yet been seen to completion, it can still serve as evidence of intent.

Ernesto Verdeja

…said it could be “called a genocide, even in a narrow legal sense, for several months now” given the accumulation of Israeli attacks clearly and consistently targeting the civilian population in Gaza.

A major tipping point for Verdeja and many other human rights experts was Israel’s ground offensive in Rafah in May. The Israeli military had been pushing civilians increasingly into the southern city, which connects Gaza and Egypt, telling them it was a safe zone while it pursued Hamas to the north. But by August, an estimated 44 percent of all buildings in Rafah had been damaged or destroyed in heavy bombing. Israeli forces took over and shut down the Rafah border crossing, limiting the entry of humanitarian aid into Gaza. They killed civilians camping in tents in a humanitarian zone. When the ICJ ordered Israel to stop its offensive in Rafah, Israeli officials condemned the ruling and said it was open to interpretation, despite the fact that many human rights lawyers argued it was unambiguous. The assault on Rafah continued.

“I wouldn’t say [Rafah was] necessarily the defining moment, but I think it’s indicative of a broader pattern where we see a genocidal campaign really crystallizing,” Verdeja said.

Scholars that still disagree it is genocide:

Some scholars still disagree. Dov Waxman, a professor of political science and Israel studies and the director of the UCLA Y&S Nazarian Center for Israel Studies, wrote last year in response to Segal’s piece in Jewish Currents that accusing Israel of genocide required “stretching the concept too far, emptying it of any meaning.”

Waxman has since qualified his stance, but still believes “Israel’s actions in the Gaza Strip — though too often brutal, inhumane, and indiscriminate — do not meet the international legal criteria of the crime of genocide.” He told me that he “can understand why many regard those actions as genocidal” given the extent of the death and destruction in Gaza and the “bellicose and extreme rhetoric of some Israeli officials, including senior government ministers, can be characterized as potentially genocidal because of the way Palestinians are dehumanized.”

But he still finds evidence of the requisite “intent to destroy” lacking. He said “a few horrendous public statements” made by Israeli politicians serve as only “quite limited and weak” support.

Of the scholars we cited in our previous story, he was the only one who responded to my request for new comment who still did not think Israel’s actions qualify as genocide.
Wow. That was long. Here's what I gleaned as actual accusations from all of the above (let me know if I missed some):

Movement of civilians. Evacuation of civilians from areas of current or impending military actions does not meet the definitional criteria for genocide and, in point of fact, is evidence against the charge of genocide as a clear intent and action to preserve civilian life.

Destruction of infrastructure. Destruction of military objectives, and destruction of non-military infrastructure for necessary military purposes, and military actions which result in the destruction of infrastructure, do not meet the definitional criteria for genocide.

Deaths of civilians in humanitarian zones. Protected places lose their protection if and when they become military objectives. Deaths of civilians during military conflict does not meet the criteria for genocide.

In order to place these specific acts within the boundaries of genocide, you would have to prove these specific acts outside the context of war AND, additionally, prove genocidal intent of those specific acts. In other words, that the evacuation of people from one area to another was not in the context of actual or impending combat or military operations AND that the evacuation of people was intended to lead to their destruction. That the destruction of infrastructure was not in the context of valid and reasonable military necessity AND that the destruction of infrastructure was intended to cause the destruction of the group. That deaths of civilians occurred in absence of any (whether real or suspected or threatened) military objective AND that the deaths of civilians was intended to cause the destruction of the group.

In all of these examples, it is evident that there is a valid military purpose. We don't even have to look at the second requirement, which would be FAR more difficult to prove to the legally required standard.
 
I have to go to bed soon as tomorrow is a work day (ugh)…
Have a good sleep!
I take issue with that last sentence - it is so broad that that rationale can be used cover anything, even genocide since it is war.
I don't think it can. I think it is relatively easy to distinguish between acts of war which are legal, acts of war which are illegal, and acts of genocide outside the context of war.
 
Prove they are. They have an air force and could have leveled the place in 2 weeks. Instead they have created the lowest collateral damage in history. Hamas uses children as human shields a war crime, they build bases under schools and hospitals, they steal food and starve Gazans, they rape and strangle children with intent. There is no disputed land. Gaza is the Palestinian state and they chose to attack Israel and slaughter 1200 innocent people. Now Hamas pays the price. The people elected them. You get what you ask for.
True!
 
Regarding the term genocide, Israel could have flattened Gaza on the day after the atrocities. But it didn’t. :rolleyes:
 

Not genocide. And not an existential threat. And easily solved by not being an existential threat to Israel.

I’m not saying THAT is genocide, but yes Israel is an existential threat to the Palestinians in THEIR view. The Palestinians might be an existential threat to Israel in THEIR view but in reality Israel has the power, intelligence apparatus, bombs and allies to easily negate it. While what Hamas did was horrific (like 9/11) it was existential (as 9/11 wasn’t). The existential threat argument is way overused.

Words mean things. Again, I'd invite you to say what you actually mean, instead of throwing words around which are not equivalent to your actual meaning. If you had said, "Israel has control over its own borders and has a sea blockade on Gaza" I
I do say what I actually mean and to reduce the argument to “Israel has control etc.” would be inaccurate and omit a great deal such as…what ARE the borders? Right now they unofficially appear to extend into Syria. Israel holds decisive control over millions of people with no real status or say in what Israel does to them.


would have agreed with you.

And yet, it hasn't.
Yes it has.
 
Wow. That was long. Here's what I gleaned as actual accusations from all of the above (let me know if I missed some):

Movement of civilians. Evacuation of civilians from areas of current or impending military actions does not meet the definitional criteria for genocide and, in point of fact, is evidence against the charge of genocide as a clear intent and action to preserve civilian life.

Not necessarily. The movement of civilians into “safe” areas technically avoids the charge of genocide. But the movement of civilians and subsequent bombing in those “safe” puts it into question.



Destruction of infrastructure. Destruction of military objectives, and destruction of non-military infrastructure for necessary military purposes, and military actions which result in the destruction of infrastructure, do not meet the definitional criteria for genocide.

Again, this is a case where war can be used to excuse anything.

One of the criteria for genocide is: Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

Israel didn’t just destroy infrastructure…they completely irradicated it, turning Gaza into a wasteland that observers said surpassed any conflict they’d seen before. Agricultural land (olive trees were deliberately uprooted and destroyed, water, housing etc. The excuse that Hamas was hiding in all those areas doesn’t hold, Israel frequently did not provide any evidence to support or provided photos of “evidence” that was actually taken that was elsewhere. All of this has to be viewed in the context of explicit statements made by those with the power to enact them: essentially “we will flatten Gaza and make sure they have left to return to”.



Deaths of civilians in humanitarian zones. Protected places lose their protection if and when they become military objectives. Deaths of civilians during military conflict does not meet the criteria for genocide.
And again…military objectives would seem to cover any act, seemingly arbritrary, often without evidence and in light of the deeply held belief that there are no innocent civilians when it comes to Palestinians. (that is the same excuse Palestinian terrorists use to attack civilians).



In order to place these specific acts within the boundaries of genocide, you would have to prove these specific acts outside the context of war AND, additionally, prove genocidal intent of those specific acts. In other words, that the evacuation of people from one area to another was not in the context of actual or impending combat or military operations AND that the evacuation of people was intended to lead to their destruction.
I’ll repeat: this allows war to be used as a pretext for any act by calling it a military objectives. I can make tbe argument that these acts were intended to lead to their destruction when taken as a whole. Making Gaza uninhabitable, completely destroying infrastructure (what wasn’t flattened by bombs was systematically bulldozed into rubble), destruction of all cultural institutions and artifacts, education centers, hospitals, religious centers. The evacuations combined with deliberate scarcity and locations of humanitarian aid were geared toward forcing masses of people south, concentrating them and managing them through forced expulsions to other countries, a so called humanitarian city where they could enter but not leave and “ be processed for immigration”, or other concentration schemes. Individually those acts could be viewed as part of war but collectively they paint a different particular in light of statements made and information leaked.

If you destroy the artifacts of culture, make a land unlivable and disperse the surviving people to countries around the world, you can effectively destroy a people. Without a land there will be no Palestinian cause or people.

That the destruction of infrastructure was not in the context of valid and reasonable military necessity AND that the destruction of infrastructure was intended to cause the destruction of the group. That deaths of civilians occurred in absence of any (whether real or suspected or threatened) military objective AND that the deaths of civilians was intended to cause the destruction of the group.
See above.

In all of these examples, it is evident that there is a valid military purpose. We don't even have to look at the second requirement, which would be FAR more difficult to prove to the legally required standard.
 
  • Fact
Reactions: cnm
Nobody cried "genocide" when over 25,000 German civilians were incinerated in the fire-bombing of Dresden, Germany in WW2. And that was only one city. Estimates for the total number of German civilians killed during World War II range from 1.5 million to 3 million. That's far more than the estimated 70,000 Palestinians that have been killed in Gaza, after the October 7 attack on Israel.
Genocide as a term and crime did not exist then, it came into being after the Holocaust because of the Holocaust.
 
Nobody cried "genocide" when over 25,000 German civilians were incinerated in the fire-bombing of Dresden, Germany in WW2. And that was only one city. Estimates for the total number of German civilians killed during World War II range from 1.5 million to 3 million. That's far more than the estimated 70,000 Palestinians that have been killed in Gaza, after the October 7 attack on Israel.
Dresden was a war crime
 
Regarding the term genocide, Israel could have flattened Gaza on the day after the atrocities. But it didn’t. :rolleyes:
I guess the international courts took that into account. At least we know now that Germany didn't commit genocide in the holocaust because it was too slow with its killing, like Israel.

TIL
 
15th post
Genocide as a term and crime did not exist then, it came into being after the Holocaust because of the Holocaust.
irony.webp
 
If you destroy the artifacts of culture, make a land unlivable and disperse the surviving people to countries around the world, you can effectively destroy a people. Without a land there will be no Palestinian cause or people.
I think that is regarded more as a feature than a bug.
 
Not necessarily. The movement of civilians into “safe” areas technically avoids the charge of genocide. But the movement of civilians and subsequent bombing in those “safe” puts it into question.





Again, this is a case where war can be used to excuse anything.

One of the criteria for genocide is: Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

Israel didn’t just destroy infrastructure…they completely irradicated it, turning Gaza into a wasteland that observers said surpassed any conflict they’d seen before. Agricultural land (olive trees were deliberately uprooted and destroyed, water, housing etc. The excuse that Hamas was hiding in all those areas doesn’t hold, Israel frequently did not provide any evidence to support or provided photos of “evidence” that was actually taken that was elsewhere. All of this has to be viewed in the context of explicit statements made by those with the power to enact them: essentially “we will flatten Gaza and make sure they have left to return to”.




And again…military objectives would seem to cover any act, seemingly arbritrary, often without evidence and in light of the deeply held belief that there are no innocent civilians when it comes to Palestinians. (that is the same excuse Palestinian terrorists use to attack civilians).




I’ll repeat: this allows war to be used as a pretext for any act by calling it a military objectives. I can make tbe argument that these acts were intended to lead to their destruction when taken as a whole. Making Gaza uninhabitable, completely destroying infrastructure (what wasn’t flattened by bombs was systematically bulldozed into rubble), destruction of all cultural institutions and artifacts, education centers, hospitals, religious centers. The evacuations combined with deliberate scarcity and locations of humanitarian aid were geared toward forcing masses of people south, concentrating them and managing them through forced expulsions to other countries, a so called humanitarian city where they could enter but not leave and “ be processed for immigration”, or other concentration schemes. Individually those acts could be viewed as part of war but collectively they paint a different particular in light of statements made and information leaked.

If you destroy the artifacts of culture, make a land unlivable and disperse the surviving people to countries around the world, you can effectively destroy a people. Without a land there will be no Palestinian cause or people.


See above.
and yet very little loss of life. Go figure Isreal is so inept that they can't even kill large numbers of the group it is supposedly committing genocide on
 

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