Food for Thought

[sealadaigh]

My objections were not as much to the use of the word 'chosen' - as to the FACT that it is being used by too many in a way which is grossly inaccurate, and so presents a most distorted picture of Jewihs theology.

It's like 'caritas' has a pretty specific meaning in RC theology: so does the concept of 'chosen' in Judaism (ALL Judaism, yes).

And that concept ('chosen' in Judaism) has NOTHING of 'superiority' about it: it is about the J ews being chose by YHVH to live by the Sinai Covenant. As other groups were similarly chosen by YHVH for other Covenants, given other tasks, different work to do in this world. Torah doesn't talk about all of that because we Jews didn't need to know about every little thing YHVH was doing with different tribes of Man. But the overall idea is IN there, several times over: YHVH is LORD over All the Earth - He just chose the Jews to make that fact known to others. As a certain poet once noted:

How odd
of GOD
To choose
the Jews!

We don't know why He chose us to preserve and make Torah available to others: it doesn't matter, because it's about Him - and not about us! His choice doesn't make us any better than anyone else. YHVH is a loving parent Who wants to have a relationship with EACH tribe of Man, as we are EACH His beloved children.

the below is from HAZON, a large, mainstream jewish organisation .

"The Compassionate One promised that from Avraham and Sarah would emerge the people of the covenant. This chosen people were given the responsibility to serve as a living example of the Divine teachings and thereby inspire all the peoples. As recorded in our Sacred Scriptures, the chosen people did not always succeed in their task; nevertheless, they preserved the Divine teachings, and Christianity and Islam later adopted “some” of these teachings.

Christianity, however, added certain pagan ideas which were not in the true spirit of Avraham and Sarah’s message. For example, Avraham and Sarah taught people not to deify any aspect of creation, including a human being, yet Christianity deified Jesus. And while Avraham and Sarah taught people to pray directly to the Compassionate One, Christianity taught people that all prayers must go through the intermediary of Jesus.

The Choosing People

somehow this pagan is not inspired, although you seem to have Lippy, another one of your "living example of the Divine teachings", eating out of your hand...well...at least when she isn't off on some other thread advocating or the IDF to shoot six year old children.

 

[sealadaigh]

Deach makes a FOOL OF HIMSELF AGAIN "you might want to look-up the word 'chosen' " the idiot is "looking up" the dictionary definition of ENGLISH WORDS in order to interpret what the HEBREW word bkhr means in the manner in which it is used in ancient hebrew scriptures-------what a joke is Deach

deach dear I will help you-------the CONCEPT of CHOICE----is one of the main themes of the book of the bible you call "GENESIS" It is a very big topic In fact the concept of "CHOICE" comes up in lots of ancient writings--------including some of the greek classics like the ODYSSEY you would not understand To start you off------think "choice" vs "fate" too sublime for you?

jews use the english word referring to themselves, not i.

obviously it is too sublime for me and i am a joke. i am one of the goyim, not one of the chosen.

furthermore, we are discussing what jews consider "god's" choice.

 

[Hossfly]

Deach makes a FOOL OF HIMSELF AGAIN "you might want to look-up the word 'chosen' " the idiot is "looking up" the dictionary definition of ENGLISH WORDS in order to interpret what the HEBREW word bkhr means in the manner in which it is used in ancient hebrew scriptures-------what a joke is Deach

deach dear I will help you-------the CONCEPT of CHOICE----is one of the main themes of the book of the bible you call "GENESIS" It is a very big topic In fact the concept of "CHOICE" comes up in lots of ancient writings--------including some of the greek classics like the ODYSSEY you would not understand To start you off------think "choice" vs "fate" too sublime for you?

jews use the english word referring to themselves, not i.

obviously it is too sublime for me and i am a joke. i am one of the goyim, not one of the chosen.

furthermore, we are discussing what jews consider "god's" choice.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 7:5-7 (in Context) Deuteronomy 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

 

[sealadaigh]

Deach makes a FOOL OF HIMSELF AGAIN "you might want to look-up the word 'chosen' " the idiot is "looking up" the dictionary definition of ENGLISH WORDS in order to interpret what the HEBREW word bkhr means in the manner in which it is used in ancient hebrew scriptures-------what a joke is Deach

deach dear I will help you-------the CONCEPT of CHOICE----is one of the main themes of the book of the bible you call "GENESIS" It is a very big topic In fact the concept of "CHOICE" comes up in lots of ancient writings--------including some of the greek classics like the ODYSSEY you would not understand To start you off------think "choice" vs "fate" too sublime for you?

jews use the english word referring to themselves, not i.

obviously it is too sublime for me and i am a joke. i am one of the goyim, not one of the chosen.

furthermore, we are discussing what jews consider "god's" choice.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 7:5-7 (in Context) Deuteronomy 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

so...jews wrote the book and push the word.

my gods do not believe in bigotry, racism, or special people. my god is egalitarian.

 

[Hossfly]

jews use the english word referring to themselves, not i.

obviously it is too sublime for me and i am a joke. i am one of the goyim, not one of the chosen.

furthermore, we are discussing what jews consider "god's" choice.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 7:5-7 (in Context) Deuteronomy 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

so...jews wrote the book and push the word.

my gods do not believe in bigotry, racism, or special people. my god is egalitarian.

Then you are pure of heart. You can be proud of your convictions.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

jews use the english word referring to themselves, not i.

obviously it is too sublime for me and i am a joke. i am one of the goyim, not one of the chosen.

furthermore, we are discussing what jews consider "god's" choice.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 7:5-7 (in Context) Deuteronomy 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

so...jews wrote the book and push the word.

my gods do not believe in bigotry, racism, or special people. my god is egalitarian.

All religions believe they are chosen. They just have different words for it. Alot of Protestant Christians believe that their god arbitrarily (sp?) chose a tiny fraction of people, whom they call "the Elect of God" to be "saved" while the rest of mankind is doomed to eternal damnation. And Muslims call themselves the "true believers" while others are infidels.

 

[irosie91]

why would you consider the vague metaphysical musings of einstein an issue for this board? "Einstein wrote in a letter" gee-----how exciting-----he did not even know that the thing would ever be read by anyone other than the person to whom he addressed it and probably did not even bother to PROOF READ his little note and probably did not even give that which he wrote------a whole lot of thought. I am always fascinated when people quote from letters and diaries and odd little comments as if the little samples MUST REFLECT SOME CONSISTENT AND IMPORTANT INSIGHT INTO TRUTH Maybe he was tired or drunk when he wrote that letter? -------Maybe that letter truly reflects his lifetime philosophy or maybe he was just writing something he thought would please the receiver of the letter.

If a philosopher writes a book-----revises it----works on it -----then it reflects something about his thinking---- ........a letter?-------was it a post card from Miami?


My all time fave is citations of some scribblings in a personal diary-------late at nite----after a party-----alcohol haze and then a sleeping pill -----I WILL NOW WRITE DEEP AND HISTORICALLY IMPORTANT STUFF IN THIS LITTLE NOTEBOOK THAT I ASSUME NO ONE WILL EVER READ----EVEN I WILL PROBABLY NEVER READ IT AGAIN

and that would explain your feelings about the about the hoax "letter to an anti-zionist friend" by the reverend doctor martin luther king jr. too, right rosie?


at least the einstein letter is real.

liar deach lied again I never commented on any letter written or not written by martin luther king--------islamo nazi pigs lie and lie and lie "MY LETTER"???? gee deach-----you are THAT desperate???? Einstein's letter of joy and congratulations to Israel in 1948 is real too-----as is his will leaving his papers to the Hebrew University Again and again deach----you make just one point------you ID yourself an islamo nazi pig

for the record---islamo nazi pig deach TRIED to imply that I stated that the cited letter by einstein is fake-----nope----I did not pigs like deach live to fart out lies

 

[MHunterB]

sealie - your paradigm is flawed.

It's YOUR insistence that Judaism is 'exclusive' and RC 'inclusive'. That's why you are unable to understand that 'chosen for task X' is not better or worse than 'chosen for task Y'.

I don't know what the problem is: my friends from different polytheist faiths have never had any trouble understanding the idea.

 

[sealadaigh]

sealie - your paradigm is flawed.

It's YOUR insistence that Judaism is 'exclusive' and RC 'inclusive'. That's why you are unable to understand that 'chosen for task X' is not better or worse than 'chosen for task Y'.

I don't know what the problem is: my friends from different polytheist faiths have never had any trouble understanding the idea.

my paradigm is not flawed, and you are assuming X=Y.

choosing one person to eat chocolate cake and another person to eat broccoli is not the same.

you were chosen by god to spread his word and teach us. what were the irish chosen for, the africans, etc.

look, i have no problem with jew's insistance thaat they are chosen by god at all. i really do not care a damn.

the thing is though, is that there are consequences to that belief, whether you or i like it or not. one is that you will be regarded as arroganr snobs at best, and racists and bigots at worst. you have, by calling yourself chosen by god to be his messenger, efectively seperated yourself fom an increasingly diverse society that embraces egalitarian principles on all levels. you make yourselves insular in the saddest sense.

what friends from polytheist faiths? what polytheist faiths? what is a polytheist faith in your opinion? and why in the hell would you even discuss "the chosen people" with your friends. i don't think i have discussed comparative religion with anyone.

again, look up the word "chosen" in the dictionary. that is the definition most people understand.

 

[irosie91]

I am fascinated In all my life I never heard a jew tell ANYONE that jews are "CHOSEN" yet deach insists that jews are telling HIM "we jews are chosen" all of the time. Deach can you estimate just how many times per week jews say to you "JEWS ARE CHOSEN"??? BTW just how does one say "CHOSEN" in hebrew? Do you think words in different languages have somewhat-----differing shades of conotation? Once you find out how to say "chosen" in hebrew-----maybe then you can figure out just how that word is USED An interesting factoid is that the word which has as its infinitive "to choose" in english-----is used extensively in the bibilical book of genesis. Do you have any idea as to the context of that word in the book of genesis Who is "chosen" and who is asked to CHOOSE and who does CHOOSE? "choose" is actually the theme of the book of genesis-----I believe the major theme----before the founding of the hebrew people by -----abraham. Is that not interesting?

 

[MHunterB]

Seal, what is wrong - in your opinion - with the paradigm of one Deity Who has chosen diffferent groups to live by different Covenants? That would be, as I understand it, very close to the view I've heard expressed by Muslims very often as they affirm their respect for my faith.

It is also the same view I've heard from very many Christians of several different denominations. As one said "I don't presume to know what GOD intends for His Jews or His Buddhists or whatever - I've got enough work to do to understand what He wants of his Episcopalians, and myself in particular."

What is a 'polytheist' faith? Well, a couple of 'em are Asatruar, and a couple more are Wiccan. And then there are a couple First Nations folks ('Native Americans'/NDNs) who have their particular tribal faiths. Oh, and a Zoroastrean - who is a monotheist, yes. But not one of the 'usual' flavor......

Now none of those other folks regards us Jews, or me, as 'arrogant'.

As I've tried several times before to explain - my Torah doesn't talk about the Irish, or the many tribes of Africans. Because my people knew nothing of those nations, and YHVH didn't see fit to give us the details of all his plans for everyone.

I don't assume that the Torah is 'complete' as in telling EVERYONE what their job from YHVH is. It's written in terms of the Sinai Covenant. ALL it really says about 'the nations' (which is what 'goyim' means, EXACTLY the same thing as the Lati-derived 'gentile') is that YHVH has made certain arrangements for other Peoples and that He loves even our enemies who are ALSO His beloved children.

The Noahide Laws - 7 or 49 or whatever! - are the Jewish understanding of YHVH's requirement for the salvation of ALL nations. In Jewish understanding the term 'salvation' cannot mean the same as in Christianity, as there is no 'Devil' nor 'Hell' (perpetual torment): rather, the concept is "living a life which is pleasing to YHVH".

 

[MHunterB]

Oh, why would I discuss our respective religions with my friends? REALLY?

If your faith isn't important to you, I guess you might not discuss it with anyone.

Many of my RL friends not only are not Jewish, but have never really known anyone who was Jewish and they have questions. They want to understand what it is that I believe and why, where it comes from.

I participate in other online discussion boards and people online also have questions about Judaism. They do not initially comprehend that it is a very different faith from Christianity in many basic concepts, so what they read online confuses them.

We are NOT a doctrinal faith community - a Mormon or a JW in particular tends to be completely mystified by our total lack of any 'central authority' and our dearth of doctrine.

The Torah is not 'the Law' to Jews: the word is 'Teachings'. And that is a huge difference which Christians have generally never learned about: it is a large part of why Jews do not view our Scripture as literally as most Christians do theirs.

 

[irosie91]

everyone got that ??? now deach claims that NO NON JEWS TRASH JUDAISM ------gee-----I am ---well not young ----but not all that old-----in my own childhood----Judaism was regularly TRASHED IN CHURCHES ---I know that because I grew up in a very WASP ish town and got to go to sunday school------and also got to interact with those kids who went to catholic school----I was from -----THEM THAT I FOUND OUT AT AGE FIVE that I am a jew and later learned what was being said in the churches------then ----just barely out of my teens I encountered LARGE NUMBERS OF muslims------because of a job I had It was from them I learned what muslims were TAUGHT about jews. and judaism As a jew----I attended lots of "jewish things" and never once heard the words "christian or muslim or jesus or koran" at those "jewish" events. Poor Deach is clueless----or he is just lying-----or he is reading the script they gave him at the mosque

tell us deach------what did jews TELL you about your religion----whatever it happens to be ? I can tell you what protestants, catholics, muslims and hindus and quakers told me about Judaism I can take that back (at least in the case of protestants and catholics) more than 50 years. My hubby pretends he does not understand arabic just to give arabic speaking muslims the OPPORTUNITY to express themselves FREELY in his presence. Have you come up with a figure of HOW MANY TIMES PER WEEK JEWS REMIND YOU THAT JEWS ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE?

 

[sealadaigh]

you are not copying my posts so i have no idea to what you are responding. nor do i know which posts of mine you have read.

i am faithless also. you do not seem to get that and that certainly complicates the conversation. i do not, i have chosen not to concern myself with god, even beyond agnosticism, bcause they believe something. i do not even do that. i do not ponder god. i generally do not discuss that with people. i listen. i do believe in the catholic church as an orgainisation. i can discuss that with people.

i have had three jewish girlriends in my life. they seem to like the irish. we would yalk about things sometimes. they had friends. we would talk about things sometimes. you do not mystify me. they do not mystify me. judaism does not mystify me.

here is what i am saying.

when a people say they are "THE chosen people" there is a very visceral reaction to that statement of belief from other people.

most of those people will be put off by it. i have seen it. it is an insular and arrogant statement. it effectively seperates you from the commonality of society.

here is something i posted earlier from a mainstream jewish orgainisation that is fairly large...

"The Compassionate One promised that from Avraham and Sarah would emerge the people of the covenant. This chosen people were given the responsibility to serve as a living example of the Divine teachings and thereby inspire all the peoples. As recorded in our Sacred Scriptures, the chosen people did not always succeed in their task; nevertheless, they preserved the Divine teachings, and Christianity and Islam later adopted “some” of these teachings.'

"Christianity, however, added certain pagan ideas which were not in the true spirit of Avraham and Sarah’s message. For example, Avraham and Sarah taught people not to deify any aspect of creation, including a human being, yet Christianity deified Jesus. And while Avraham and Sarah taught people to pray directly to the Compassionate One, Christianity taught people that all prayers must go through the intermediary of Jesus."

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/publicat/hazon/tzedaka/choosing.htm

 

[irosie91]

deach seems unable to provide a basis for his claim that jews keep reminding him that JEWS ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE nor can he tell us about how jews are trashing his religion----which may be catholicism I am not sure

the very first time in my jewish life I heard jews called "the chosen people" ------was on a Sunday morning-----I was something like 8 or 9 or 10-----the next door neighbor came into mom's kitchen ----fresh from church and said "YOU ARE SO LUCKY TO BE ONE OF THE CHOSEN PEOPLE" my mom laughed and said "CHOSEN FOR WHAT"? gee---I have been in synagogues in my young life----but that CHOSEN thing was news to me.

 

[sealadaigh]

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 7:5-7 (in Context) Deuteronomy 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

so...jews wrote the book and push the word.

my gods do not believe in bigotry, racism, or special people. my god is egalitarian.

All religions believe they are chosen. They just have different words for it. Alot of Protestant Christians believe that their god arbitrarily (sp?) chose a tiny fraction of people, whom they call "the Elect of God" to be "saved" while the rest of mankind is doomed to eternal damnation. And Muslims call themselves the "true believers" while others are infidels.

no. not all religions believe they are chosen.

i have never met a muslim who called me an inidel. they have all respecteed my "belies."

 

[sealadaigh]

let me make this absolutely clear.

THE JEWS ARE NOT GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE.

 

[MHunterB]

Let me make this clear: WE DO NOT MAKE ANY SUCH CLAIM.

 

[MHunterB]

It depends on *which* Muslims one talks to - some believe only their religion is 'true'. There are some Christians like that as well - entire denominations of 'em.

But there are no Jews who can 'properly' make any such statement - that ours is the ONLY salvific belief system - because it is AGAINST TORAH. While we do not have a 'catechism' per se, and very little of absolute doctrine - if something is AGAINST Torah, it is absolutely NOT tolerable to Judaism.

That is probably the single biggest reason Judaism refused to continue to allow the 'Jesus people' to remain in the synagogues - because they moved from revering Jesus as a teacher of righteousness (as R. Akiva, Hillel and others), to WORSHIPPING Jesus as being GOD.

While I am not a Catholic - I majored in Medieval English Lit, and that had to include a study of the RC faith in the Middle Ages and on to the Renaissance, because what is so very much of the 'Lit' about! So I've got a pretty good background in the teachings of various Church Fathers, etc. And while I don't 'believe' the religion, I certainly have an understanding of its basic doctrines.

To return to what you keep repeating: WE do not say we are 'THE' chosen. We are simply 'chosen for Sinai': others were chosen for other arrangements. It's ALL good.

We are not 'ice cream' to anyone's broccoli: we are ONE FLAVOR of ice cream among many. We DO NOT KNOW what tasks other Peoples have been set, so we have NO BASIS to make any comparison or 'value jusgement' as to our importance to YHVH with regard to anyone else's.

The Torah is the record of the Jewish People's relationship with YHVH. It does NOT presume to be the ONLY record of ANY People's relationship.....

I honestly do not know how to make it any plainer. All I can say is, I've very seldom had such a problem getting the idea across.

 

[ima]

Let me make this clear: WE DO NOT MAKE ANY SUCH CLAIM.

"In Judaism, "chosenness" is the belief that the Jews are the chosen people, chosen to be in a covenant with God. This idea is first found in the Torah (the five books of Moses, which are also included in the Christian Bible) and is elaborated on in later books of the Hebrew Bible."

Jews as a chosen people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia