Fixing Inequality

[The Rabbi]

Doesn't god say help the poor?

Without question, but he didn't say for the government to do the helping.

Have you heard the pope lately? I guess you know more than him?

Why should he believe the Pope more than Jesus? Yeah, Jesus didnt say to give all your money to Caesar so Caesar could help the poor.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

I think it's gross amounts of inequality that is the problem. I haven't yet heard anyone saying there should be equality.

Have you noticed all the countries with high inequality aren't exactly the who's who of places you'd want to live? There is a reason for that.

Countries with less inequality are on top of the happiness rankings. What a surprise.

Take a look at this:
This Is How Income Inequality Destroys Societies - Business Insider
Look at how low social mobility is now in the US. Looks like Denmark is the new land of opportunity.

Have you noticed how slow our economy has been growing for quite a long time now? Well too much inequality is bad for economic growth.
Income Inequality Is the Enemy of Economic Growth: Robert Reich | Daily Ticker - Yahoo Finance

Oh it's a problem all right.

Well, that is a small step in the right direction.

CLEARLY stating the thesis helps.

You lot are NOT seeking income equality. Good. For that would be all stupid and shit.

But you seem to imagine that you have or even SHOULD have some "voice" in determining how much wealth should be permitted or allowable.

Few of you who subscribe to THAT notion can (or are even willing to try) to explain HOW you will draw the lines or by what claim of right you would seek to do it.

I don't think it's about determining how much wealth should be allowable. I think people should be able to get as rich as they can. But if somebody is getting incredibly rich they should be filtering some of that down to those below them. Look at how huge and profitable Walmart is. But they pay employees so little that many of them qualify for food stamps. And meanwhile executives are making huge sums of money. CEO's now make 354 times that of the average worker:
CEOs earn 354 times more than average worker - Apr. 15, 2013
In 1980 it was 42 times the average worker. Now do you think CEO's are working that much harder now? Something seems rigged to me.

Government is covering for all the low wages and poor benefits companies are paying. This is how we got obamacare. This is why food stamps are growing so fast. Government is growing while the rich profit.

So I think you use the tax system and give great breaks for companies that are giving good wages and benefits. If they aren't then well let them pay lots of taxes.

I used to believe in trickle down economics, but now I've had years to see it not work. The very rich need an incentive to do the right thing. The only incentive I can think of is taxes.

No no. There ARE value judgments being made by those who concern themselves with "income inequality."

And it ultimately and inevitably does boil down to the proposition that somebody (or some group of somebodies) imagine that they have the right and the authority to determine how much wealth is too much. Either because it's unfair or because of some other similar notion.

That "filter down" analysis is just code speak for taxation and, left unstated is the related question of "how much" should "undue" wealth then get taxed.

From that perspective, the confiscatory nature of the taxation is quite clear as is the motivation of the government to do the confiscating.

I oppose income equality. I do not WANT to make the same as everybody else. There is a REASON the folks slinging burgers don't earn the wages of the trained auto mechanic or doctor or engineer, etc. And even for people working the same (largely) unskilled assembly line productions jobs, SOME employees are better, faster, smarter and/or more productive than others holding the same job. The productive ones DESERVE their greater income. They DESERVE greater wealth.

 

[Brain357]

So when I point out the fallacy of your argument your next assertion is "It's common sense."
If it's common sense then please explain how A making more money hurts B.

Actually you offered nothing. You haven't disputed a single stat, nor have you come up with an intelligent thought. You just keep giving opinion.

You clearly don't know the difference. I disproved the premise of the entire article.
So please tell me how A making more money hurts B.

Oh yeah you disproved everything with your you're opinion. Sure you did. You've not offered anything so far, just opinion. I'm really not sure why you keep posting. But if you do please provide some sort of data next time to support your opinion. Otherwise it's all just more nothing.

 

[Indeependent]

You fail to support your ridiculous assertion and you call me stupid?
I can think of 5 friends and relatives off the bat who are in IT. That's without even taking much time. None of them are Indian, btw.

I know about 5 people in IT also...In my two shuls.
Two c++ programmers and 3 guys who do router work.
Out of about 1,500 families.

The rest have been excoriated from the market years ago.
These 5 are scared sh!tless.

I also know dozens of people with MBAs who do IT work as part of their financial duties, but that doesn't count since MBAs rarely fire each other for cheaper labor.

Now back to that 3 million and growing number, which of course, you won't discuss.
You must live in a VERY small community.

I'm still waiting for proof for your absurd assertion. The existence of visas is not it.
And I dont believe for a second you are even Jewish. Jewish people are not that stupid. Even if 85% of them voted for Obama last election.

I'm sure you know enough halacha to understand that a Torah observant Jew cannot be a Libertarian or a complete Conservative.
In fact, I'm sure you are fully aware, after at least studying the Mishnayos Bavas, that traditional Torah business transaction halacha makes American secular law look like a joke.

If you cannot correlate the "Americans lack the skill-set" meme with the number of H1-Bs in the US then your parents, if they are niftir, better ask Hashem for Techious Hamasim right now and demand their yeshiva tuition back.

 

[Brain357]

Well, that is a small step in the right direction.

CLEARLY stating the thesis helps.

You lot are NOT seeking income equality. Good. For that would be all stupid and shit.

But you seem to imagine that you have or even SHOULD have some "voice" in determining how much wealth should be permitted or allowable.

Few of you who subscribe to THAT notion can (or are even willing to try) to explain HOW you will draw the lines or by what claim of right you would seek to do it.

I don't think it's about determining how much wealth should be allowable. I think people should be able to get as rich as they can. But if somebody is getting incredibly rich they should be filtering some of that down to those below them. Look at how huge and profitable Walmart is. But they pay employees so little that many of them qualify for food stamps. And meanwhile executives are making huge sums of money. CEO's now make 354 times that of the average worker:
CEOs earn 354 times more than average worker - Apr. 15, 2013
In 1980 it was 42 times the average worker. Now do you think CEO's are working that much harder now? Something seems rigged to me.

Government is covering for all the low wages and poor benefits companies are paying. This is how we got obamacare. This is why food stamps are growing so fast. Government is growing while the rich profit.

So I think you use the tax system and give great breaks for companies that are giving good wages and benefits. If they aren't then well let them pay lots of taxes.

I used to believe in trickle down economics, but now I've had years to see it not work. The very rich need an incentive to do the right thing. The only incentive I can think of is taxes.

No no. There ARE value judgments being made by those who concern themselves with "income inequality."

And it ultimately and inevitably does boil down to the proposition that somebody (or some group of somebodies) imagine that they have the right and the authority to determine how much wealth is too much. Either because it's unfair or because of some other similar notion.

That "filter down" analysis is just code speak for taxation and, left unstated is the related question of "how much" should "undue" wealth then get taxed.

From that perspective, the confiscatory nature of the taxation is quite clear as is the motivation of the government to do the confiscating.

I oppose income equality. I do not WANT to make the same as everybody else. There is a REASON the folks slinging burgers don't earn the wages of the trained auto mechanic or doctor or engineer, etc. And even for people working the same (largely) unskilled assembly line productions jobs, SOME employees are better, faster, smarter and/or more productive than others holding the same job. The productive ones DESERVE their greater income. They DESERVE greater wealth.

Ok so you do think CEOs are working that much harder than when they did in 1980? And you think they really are working 354 times harder than the average worker? I guess they work 14160 hours a week maybe? It should be pretty clear something is just not right with this picture. This is greed not capitalism.

Your not concerned with all the negative effects too much inequality has on society? It doesn't bother you that upward mobility is hurt? Your ok with the rest of society being hurt by this greed?

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually you offered nothing. You haven't disputed a single stat, nor have you come up with an intelligent thought. You just keep giving opinion.

You clearly don't know the difference. I disproved the premise of the entire article.
So please tell me how A making more money hurts B.

Oh yeah you disproved everything with your you're opinion. Sure you did. You've not offered anything so far, just opinion. I'm really not sure why you keep posting. But if you do please provide some sort of data next time to support your opinion. Otherwise it's all just more nothing.

You obviously dont understand that my calling out the fallacy is not an opinion. It is a fact that the author engages in fallacious reasoning, positing that two things are related when in fact he shows no causation at all.
I dont need to prove anything. You're the one proposing that income inequality is pernicious. I am asking you to explain that. So far you've failed.

 

[The Rabbi]

I know about 5 people in IT also...In my two shuls.
Two c++ programmers and 3 guys who do router work.
Out of about 1,500 families.

The rest have been excoriated from the market years ago.
These 5 are scared sh!tless.

I also know dozens of people with MBAs who do IT work as part of their financial duties, but that doesn't count since MBAs rarely fire each other for cheaper labor.

Now back to that 3 million and growing number, which of course, you won't discuss.
You must live in a VERY small community.

I'm still waiting for proof for your absurd assertion. The existence of visas is not it.
And I dont believe for a second you are even Jewish. Jewish people are not that stupid. Even if 85% of them voted for Obama last election.

I'm sure you know enough halacha to understand that a Torah observant Jew cannot be a Libertarian or a complete Conservative.
In fact, I'm sure you are fully aware, after at least studying the Mishnayos Bavas, that traditional Torah business transaction halacha makes American secular law look like a joke.

If you cannot correlate the "Americans lack the skill-set" meme with the number of H1-Bs in the US then your parents, if they are niftir, better ask Hashem for Techious Hamasim right now and demand their yeshiva tuition back.

I dont know what a complete conservative is. Of course a frum Yid can be a libertarian, just like he could be a socialist.
I do believe you are at best an am haaretz and likely a goy gomur who couldn't describe what happens when Yom Kippur falls on Friday.

 

[Brain357]

You clearly don't know the difference. I disproved the premise of the entire article.
So please tell me how A making more money hurts B.

Oh yeah you disproved everything with your you're opinion. Sure you did. You've not offered anything so far, just opinion. I'm really not sure why you keep posting. But if you do please provide some sort of data next time to support your opinion. Otherwise it's all just more nothing.

You obviously dont understand that my calling out the fallacy is not an opinion. It is a fact that the author engages in fallacious reasoning, positing that two things are related when in fact he shows no causation at all.
I dont need to prove anything. You're the one proposing that income inequality is pernicious. I am asking you to explain that. So far you've failed.

What data do you have to support what your saying? You continue to offer nothing but opinion. Come now bring something.

 

[Misty]

This is exactly what Obama wants to happen. Democrats want everyone on the government dole. They are happy as pigs in pig poo.

 

[Indeependent]

I'm still waiting for proof for your absurd assertion. The existence of visas is not it.
And I dont believe for a second you are even Jewish. Jewish people are not that stupid. Even if 85% of them voted for Obama last election.

I'm sure you know enough halacha to understand that a Torah observant Jew cannot be a Libertarian or a complete Conservative.
In fact, I'm sure you are fully aware, after at least studying the Mishnayos Bavas, that traditional Torah business transaction halacha makes American secular law look like a joke.

If you cannot correlate the "Americans lack the skill-set" meme with the number of H1-Bs in the US then your parents, if they are niftir, better ask Hashem for Techious Hamasim right now and demand their yeshiva tuition back.

Of course a frum Yid can be a libertarian.

I would have an iota of respect for you if you simply admitted you're a selfish pig.

For the benefit of an observer, an traditionally Orthodox Jew CANNOT be a Libertarian.
Any traditional Orthodox Jew who states he can be a Libertarian is a liar, mostly to himself.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Oh yeah you disproved everything with your you're opinion. Sure you did. You've not offered anything so far, just opinion. I'm really not sure why you keep posting. But if you do please provide some sort of data next time to support your opinion. Otherwise it's all just more nothing.

You obviously dont understand that my calling out the fallacy is not an opinion. It is a fact that the author engages in fallacious reasoning, positing that two things are related when in fact he shows no causation at all.
I dont need to prove anything. You're the one proposing that income inequality is pernicious. I am asking you to explain that. So far you've failed.

What data do you have to support what your saying? You continue to offer nothing but opinion. Come now bring something.

Spouting DATA without a valid thesis by which to interpret the data is kind of meaningless.

What YOU have repeatedly been asked to do is straightforward.

Forget your charts etc. Just proceed to state your thesis.

In your own words, explain how some (as yet undefined) level of income inequality is pernicious. Set it up in the form of a syllogism. IT might look something like this:

Premise 1: Income inequality (at some point -- which should be clearly defined) leads to consequence "B."

Premise 2: Consequence "B" causes some additional (set of?) consequence(s) "C."

Premise 3: "C" is bad for (whomever).

Premise 4: The avoidance of "C" (for the victims of "C") can be avoided, alleviated, mitigated or whatever by addressing the problem identified in Premise 1.

THEREFORE, we "should" avoid that kind (or level?) of income inequality by some means.​

 

[The Rabbi]

Oh yeah you disproved everything with your you're opinion. Sure you did. You've not offered anything so far, just opinion. I'm really not sure why you keep posting. But if you do please provide some sort of data next time to support your opinion. Otherwise it's all just more nothing.

You obviously dont understand that my calling out the fallacy is not an opinion. It is a fact that the author engages in fallacious reasoning, positing that two things are related when in fact he shows no causation at all.
I dont need to prove anything. You're the one proposing that income inequality is pernicious. I am asking you to explain that. So far you've failed.

What data do you have to support what your saying? You continue to offer nothing but opinion. Come now bring something.

It doesnt require data to identify a fallacy. What part of that is hard to understand?

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm sure you know enough halacha to understand that a Torah observant Jew cannot be a Libertarian or a complete Conservative.
In fact, I'm sure you are fully aware, after at least studying the Mishnayos Bavas, that traditional Torah business transaction halacha makes American secular law look like a joke.

If you cannot correlate the "Americans lack the skill-set" meme with the number of H1-Bs in the US then your parents, if they are niftir, better ask Hashem for Techious Hamasim right now and demand their yeshiva tuition back.

Of course a frum Yid can be a libertarian.

I would have an iota of respect for you if you simply admitted you're a selfish pig.

For the benefit of an observer, an traditionally Orthodox Jew CANNOT be a Libertarian.
Any traditional Orthodox Jew who states he can be a Libertarian is a liar, mostly to himself.

Any proof of that? No, of course not.

 

[Indeependent]

Of course a frum Yid can be a libertarian.

I would have an iota of respect for you if you simply admitted you're a selfish pig.

For the benefit of an observer, an traditionally Orthodox Jew CANNOT be a Libertarian.
Any traditional Orthodox Jew who states he can be a Libertarian is a liar, mostly to himself.

Any proof of that? No, of course not.

Proof?
Do you learn Torah? Mishnah? Gemarrah?
Better yet, what Mesechta (Tractate) are you learning at the moment?
You never did ANY of the Bava (Torts, Contracts and General Social Obligations)?
You know you are responsible for communal infrastructure, a community supported police, legislative and punitive system.
Roads, bridges, tunnels.
And these laws do NOT apply ONLY in Israel.

You have to either be a Conservative Jew at best or you flunked all of your Judaic related classes.

 

[The Rabbi]

I would have an iota of respect for you if you simply admitted you're a selfish pig.

For the benefit of an observer, an traditionally Orthodox Jew CANNOT be a Libertarian.
Any traditional Orthodox Jew who states he can be a Libertarian is a liar, mostly to himself.

Any proof of that? No, of course not.

Proof?
Do you learn Torah? Mishnah? Gemarrah?
Better yet, what Mesechta (Tractate) are you learning at the moment?
You never did ANY of the Bava (Torts, Contracts and General Social Obligations)?
You know you are responsible for communal infrastructure, a community supported police, legislative and punitive system.
Roads, bridges, tunnels.
And these laws do NOT apply ONLY in Israel.

You have to either be a Conservative Jew at best or you flunked all of your Judaic related classes.

You understand the United States is not governed by halakha, right?

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Income inequality is "bad" because ... ?

Bueller?

Anyone?

Anyone?

 

[The Rabbi]

Income inequality is "bad" because ... ?

Bueller?

Anyone?

Anyone?

because it leads to poverty. didnt you read all those links that showed that countries with high inequality also had high poverty? I mean, just because the two are correlated must mean one causes the other, right?

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Income inequality is "bad" because ... ?

Bueller?

Anyone?

Anyone?

because it leads to poverty. didnt you read all those links that showed that countries with high inequality also had high poverty? I mean, just because the two are correlated must mean one causes the other, right?

Oh. Yeah.

Damn. I guess I was just not paying attention.

 

[TooTall]

Doesn't god say help the poor?

Without question, but he didn't say for the government to do the helping.

Have you heard the pope lately? I guess you know more than him?

I heard him and I didn't hear the word 'government' come out of his mouth. I also didn't hear any solution to the problem from him. I am waiting for someone to tell me the government needs to take all of the wealth from the wealthy and distribute it equally to the masses.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Income inequality appears to coexist in some tragically impoverished lands, thus we MUST logically conclude that income inequality is the bad thing that CAUSES poverty. Right?

Even STATING the "argument" should alert the person expressing the "thought" that he or she is utilizing a fallacy.

The RABBI has clearly pointed this out, here, a few times.

But it has been done pretty eloquently in the past, too.

One of my favorites requires some repetition.

LISTEN to Mr. Donahue stating the traditional liberal premise and THEN hear what Mr. Friedman had to say:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A]Milton Friedman - Greed - YouTube[/ame]