Find the Cross

[Zhukov]

From the Los Angeles Times

Facing Suit, County to Remove Seal's Cross

The Board of Supervisors voted to seek a compromise with the ACLU, perhaps by replacing the cross with images of a Spanish mission and Native Americans.

By Sue Fox
Times Staff Writer

June 2, 2004

Los Angeles County supervisors on Tuesday ended an emotional debate over the symbolism of the tiny gold cross on the county seal by deciding to remove it rather than defend it against a threatened ACLU lawsuit.

Advised by county attorneys that the cross might not withstand a court challenge, the Board of Supervisors voted to seek a compromise with the ACLU — perhaps by replacing the cross with images of a Spanish mission and Native Americans.

http://ktla.trb.com/news/local/ktla-me-seal2jun02-lat,0,4935904.story?coll=ktla-news-1

 

[5stringJeff]

So the tiny cross is offensive, but the huge Virgin of Guadalupe (a Latin version of the Virgin Mary) is not a religious symbol worth arguing over?!?

 

[dmp]

sad, isnt it?

More discussion:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6925

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
So the tiny cross is offensive, but the huge Virgin of Guadalupe (a Latin version of the Virgin Mary) is not a religious symbol worth arguing over?!?

It's actually the Roman goddess Pomona.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

So this is all over the little gold cross on the right side of the seal in the middle? I could barely notice it, but then again, I was looking at a small picture because I couldn't enlarge it.

I personally think there are better things to fight against and waste one's energy on than trying to get a tiny little cross off a seal.

 

[5stringJeff]

Thank you Starla... at least all the liberals aren't crazy!

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Hey, no prob!!

Just because I'm liberal and a weak atheist, doesn't mean that people can't have a little tiny gold cross in their seal!

It's just silly. The ACLU has better things to do (though I'm sure some disagree)

 

[Zhukov]

You know. It's not about it being a religious symbol, and it's not about people being offended. It's about the ACLU and their communistic attempts to rewrite history.

So what if Christianity played a major role in establishing cities like SAN Francisco, SAN Diego, or Los ANGELES, they don't like it, they've nothing better to do, so they've decided to delete some of that part of California's history.

Stalin Era= We don't like Trotsky anymore so we are going to destroy pictures of him, delete mention of him in any publication, and quietly remove anyone who ever associated with him.

Khruschev Era= We don't like Stalin anymore so we are going to destroy pictures of him, delete mention of him in any publication, and quietly remove anyone who ever associated with him.

There was a saying in the C.C.C.P.

"The future is known. Only history changes."


If no one stands up and fights what will be next?

 

[brneyedgrl80]

As a card carrying member of the ACLU, I'll have to point out in this situation (as with many others), people seek out the ACLU for support on what ever their endeavor is. If the ACLU can see that it is in fact a violation of certain rights, they will proceed with supporting the people (there's always loopholes in the judicial system). I do not agree obviously on every endeavor that ACLU decides to support, but I cannot consider a "seek and destroy" type of group. They just try to make things equal and fair. Unfortunately (for some), many people on the right disagree with what the ACLU tries to accomplish because it goes againsty their beliefs and what they think is equal and fair, which is understandable.

 

[Zhukov]

What does the cross on LA county's seal have to with civil liberties?

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Well according to this link, which takes you the article link:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6925

I guess the civil liberties in question would be that of those who do not practice or believe in any religion that are "offended" by this cross and the religion it stands for. Going by what the article is saying. I don't happen to agree with it as I stated above, but that's the only thing I can think of.

Being from San Diego myself, you can see a few missions still around and they are beautiful. I have to agree with the city of L.A. that it is part of history.

 

[5stringJeff]

Where the hell is it written that Americans have the right NOT to be offended?!? Stupid ACLU...

 

[Avatar4321]

Im offended that these people are offended these few people are so offended on how the people express themselves in the symbols that represent them.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
Im offended that these people are offended these few people are so offended on how the people express themselves in the symbols that represent them.

:clap1:

 

[Avatar4321]

Since im offended im going to sue the ACLU and anyone else that looks at me funny for millions of dollars. whose with me?:

 

[Zhukov]

We should. The ACLU has repeatedly offended my sensibilities. We should sue the ACLU.

 

[proud_savagette]

I just don't get why they're suing about this and not..hmm.. the fact that:
1) As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view...it is MOses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!
2)As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.
3) As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall, right above where the Supreme Court judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments!
4)There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.
5) James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
6) Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
7) Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

And did you know that...
Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law ...
an oligarchy ...
the rule of few over many.

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said: "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

 

[UsaPride]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

 

[yorker]

Perhaps we have misunderstood them. Maybe the cross is being interpreted as a symbol for state sponsored capital punishment.

 

[acludem]

Patrick Henry lost the battle to establish religion in Virginia. His opponents were Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Jefferson's tomb even mentions that he was the author of the Virginia statue for religious freedom. There are carvings from many historical and religious texts in the Supreme Court building. James Madison was a champion of religious liberty. He himself was not religious. You and others make the constant mistake of assuming that the politician is the same as the man.

Most of our founders would have told you they were, in some form or other, Christian. They would've had strong disagreements on many issues, though. Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and James Madison were all Deists. Patrick Henry was Anglican (Episcopalian). George Washington was officially Presbyterian though he almost never attended church services. John Adams was a Unitarian Universalist. These churches have significantly different interpretations of Christianity. You cannot and should not paint the founders of our nation with one brush.

This is not a Christian nation, if it was meant to be, the founders would've put it in the Constitution. Instead, they specifically and deliberately left religion out, as they intended for religion to be kept out of government.

acludem