Female genital mutilation is a crime in the US

[Aba Incieni]

Which is a religious rite, in your view?

The one between Abraham and God.

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

 

[Pogo]

OWWWWW !
Someone ought to snip a little off his you know what. With scissors.

I suppose if we really stand firm on this practice and make it illegal no matter how hard they try to wiggle around it, some day it will be a thing of the past. No one from our culture thinks it is acceptable. But see, that's the thing. It's not our culture and there is deeply held belief that girls who have not been cut are disreputable. Sluts/low class.
MindWars faulted Maine for not passing an additional felony law for FGM, but the legislature DID pass legislation to launch an outreach and education effort in the immigrant communities where FGM is popular, hopefully convincing them that it is not a good choice for their daughters.
Who knows. Changing the cultural beliefs is the best way to handle it, rather than throwing parents in jail for honoring their culture. It would be similar to outlawing circumcision for Jews.

I mean not really similar in that one is a religious rite and the other a cultural tradition that spreads across many religions, cultures, and nations.

Which is a religious rite, in your view?

The one between Abraham and God.

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

Agreed, although "as a hygiene thing" is the cultural part, just as FGM has its own cultural reasoning relating to female sexuality, specifically the fear thereof.

But neither of those bases is grounded in either logic or religion. It's just how the social pressures are applied.

 

[Pogo]

The one between Abraham and God.

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Correct. And yet, it's the same thing for either. Which means they must have something in common other than a religion.

Tell us --- which is older, Judaism or circumcision?

Squirm alert.....

 

[Montrovant]

The one between Abraham and God.

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Apparently it is (or at least can be) a religious practice in Islam, as well.

The Questionable Ritual of Circumcision As Practiced in Islam

 

[OldLady]

The one between Abraham and God.

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

Okay. You're losing me in the weeds with this argument.
I figured someone would jump on me for comparing FGM to circumcision, but I wasn't trying to say they were the same. Just that the same kinds of cultural beliefs fuel both procedures in the two groups.

One is a religious rite. The others aren't. That's the difference. Just sayin.

Fair enough. Do you get my point?

 

[Aba Incieni]

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Correct. And yet, it's the same thing for either. Which means they must have something in common other than a religion.

Tell us --- which is older, Judaism or circumcision?

Squirm alert.....

I'm telling you how it goes. There was this covenant, see. Between God and Abraham. It applies to all Jews to this day. They must be circumcised.

Others can or can't be, as is their want, for any variety of reasons. But no other religion requires it.

 

[Pogo]

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Apparently it is (or at least can be) a religious practice in Islam, as well.

The Questionable Ritual of Circumcision As Practiced in Islam

Actually your link doesn't say that. It notes that circumcision long predates Islam by thousands of years (there goes a spoiler alert for post 83) and that it's done for health reasons, not religious ones, by a doctor -- same as I had. But nothing in there describes it as a 'religious' practice either.

 

[Pogo]

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Correct. And yet, it's the same thing for either. Which means they must have something in common other than a religion.

Tell us --- which is older, Judaism or circumcision?

Squirm alert.....

I'm telling you how it goes. There was this covenant, see. Between God and Abraham. It applies to all Jews to this day. They must be circumcised.

Others can or can't be, as is their want, for any variety of reasons. But no other religion requires it.

You won't answer this one either.

I just gave it away though.

 

[OldLady]

I mean not really similar in that one is a religious rite and the other a cultural tradition that spreads across many religions, cultures, and nations.

Which is a religious rite, in your view?

The one between Abraham and God.

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

Agreed, although "as a hygiene thing" is the cultural part, just as FGM has its own cultural reasoning relating to female sexuality, specifically the fear thereof.

But neither of those bases is grounded in either logic or religion. It's just how the social pressures are applied.

I thought Jews DID circumcise their kids for a religious commandment of some sort? No?
Anyway, ALL I was trying to say is that Jews have for generations, centuries, millenia, done this thing to their boys when they're born. It is a cultural tradition they would be very uncomfortable ditching. The immigrants practicing FGM are coming from an equally long standing cultural tradition which it will make them feel very uncomfortable to stop. That is the only way I was comparing them. The fact that one group has more adherents than another or why isn't really an important part of my argument.

 

[Montrovant]

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Correct. And yet, it's the same thing for either. Which means they must have something in common other than a religion.

Tell us --- which is older, Judaism or circumcision?

Squirm alert.....

I'm telling you how it goes. There was this covenant, see. Between God and Abraham. It applies to all Jews to this day. They must be circumcised.

Others can or can't be, as is their want, for any variety of reasons. But no other religion requires it.

Judaism is not the only religion to require circumcision. Apparently some sects of Christianity require it, as do some Muslims. There are aboriginal cultures that do it, but I'm not sure if that is a religious or cultural thing.

Religious male circumcision - Wikipedia

 

[Aba Incieni]

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Correct. And yet, it's the same thing for either. Which means they must have something in common other than a religion.

Tell us --- which is older, Judaism or circumcision?

Squirm alert.....

I'm telling you how it goes. There was this covenant, see. Between God and Abraham. It applies to all Jews to this day. They must be circumcised.

Others can or can't be, as is their want, for any variety of reasons. But no other religion requires it.

You won't answer this one either.

I just gave it away though.

You're asking me a question that has no connection to my point. You were not circumcised for religious reasons. Your neighbor Shlomo was.

 

[danielpalos]

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), more than 200 million females alive today have been subjected to female genital mutilation (FGM). Aliens from the 30 countries where this practice is concentrated are immigrating to the United States, and a serious effort is not being made to prevent them from practicing FGM here.
Female genital mutilation is a crime in the US — so why is it rarely prosecuted?
View attachment 175766

Just turn your head it will all go away or you can act like a trendy leftist liberal and deny it even exist that's always the easy cowardly way out. They're experts at that.

Yes, it is.

Free full body massage with happy ending and g-spot focus work, to support women's right to socially acceptable, human sexuality.

 

[Aba Incieni]

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Correct. And yet, it's the same thing for either. Which means they must have something in common other than a religion.

Tell us --- which is older, Judaism or circumcision?

Squirm alert.....

I'm telling you how it goes. There was this covenant, see. Between God and Abraham. It applies to all Jews to this day. They must be circumcised.

Others can or can't be, as is their want, for any variety of reasons. But no other religion requires it.

Judaism is not the only religion to require circumcision. Apparently some sects of Christianity require it, as do some Muslims. There are aboriginal cultures that do it, but I'm not sure if that is a religious or cultural thing.

Religious male circumcision - Wikipedia

And others like animists do it as well. Still, any Christian sect is following the Abrahamic tradition, and and muslim sect is simply c/p'ing their pretend Biblical accounts.

 

[Montrovant]

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Apparently it is (or at least can be) a religious practice in Islam, as well.

The Questionable Ritual of Circumcision As Practiced in Islam

Actually your link doesn't say that. It notes that circumcision long predates Islam by thousands of years (there goes a spoiler alert for post 83) and that it's done for health reasons, not religious ones, by a doctor -- same as I had. But nothing in there describes it as a 'religious' practice either.

Done for health reasons based on religious teachings. Here's another: BBC - Religions - Islam: Circumcision of boys

Circumcision is described as rite of Islam here: Male Circumcision in Islam

From the little I've found on the subject, there is some debate among Muslim scholars as to whether circumcision should be mandatory, merely recommended, or even performed at all. It isn't as clearly required as in Judaism.

 

[OldLady]

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Correct. And yet, it's the same thing for either. Which means they must have something in common other than a religion.

Tell us --- which is older, Judaism or circumcision?

Squirm alert.....

I'm telling you how it goes. There was this covenant, see. Between God and Abraham. It applies to all Jews to this day. They must be circumcised.

Others can or can't be, as is their want, for any variety of reasons. But no other religion requires it.

You won't answer this one either.

I just gave it away though.

You're asking me a question that has no connection to my point. You were not circumcised for religious reasons. Your neighbor Shlomo was.

What IS your point, Aba?

 

[Pogo]

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Correct. And yet, it's the same thing for either. Which means they must have something in common other than a religion.

Tell us --- which is older, Judaism or circumcision?

Squirm alert.....

I'm telling you how it goes. There was this covenant, see. Between God and Abraham. It applies to all Jews to this day. They must be circumcised.

Others can or can't be, as is their want, for any variety of reasons. But no other religion requires it.

You won't answer this one either.

I just gave it away though.

You're asking me a question that has no connection to my point. You were not circumcised for religious reasons. Your neighbor Shlomo was.

That might give Shlomo a religious window dressing for his that I didn't have. But it's the same procedure either way, religious ornamentation or not.

And the facts are, (a) the Torah does nor require it, and (b) circumcision, in both the male and female versions, was around long before Islam, long before Christianism, and long before Judaism. ALL of them simply worked in, to the extent they worked it in at all, an ancient cultural practice that was already widespread.

And that's why Shlomo and I, being of different religious backgrounds, found ourselves in the same position.

 

[Pogo]

It's not just for Jews, but for all Jews it is a religious rite.

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Apparently it is (or at least can be) a religious practice in Islam, as well.

The Questionable Ritual of Circumcision As Practiced in Islam

Actually your link doesn't say that. It notes that circumcision long predates Islam by thousands of years (there goes a spoiler alert for post 83) and that it's done for health reasons, not religious ones, by a doctor -- same as I had. But nothing in there describes it as a 'religious' practice either.

Done for health reasons based on religious teachings. Here's another: BBC - Religions - Islam: Circumcision of boys

Circumcision is described as rite of Islam here: Male Circumcision in Islam

From the little I've found on the subject, there is some debate among Muslim scholars as to whether circumcision should be mandatory, merely recommended, or even performed at all. It isn't as clearly required as in Judaism.

Again, "described" doesn't mean "required". Lots of things are described in ancient religious texts, naturally so since they're the context of their time.

 

[Pogo]

Which is a religious rite, in your view?

The one between Abraham and God.

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

Agreed, although "as a hygiene thing" is the cultural part, just as FGM has its own cultural reasoning relating to female sexuality, specifically the fear thereof.

But neither of those bases is grounded in either logic or religion. It's just how the social pressures are applied.

I thought Jews DID circumcise their kids for a religious commandment of some sort? No?

I've never been Jewish but from what I looked up there is no such requirement in the Torah. It may indeed be a tradition and a strong one, but anyone who wanted to join Judaism could point this out as an objection, and I'm not sure there would be an argument to overcome it. Which means it's left to nothing more than "because we've always done it this way". And once you're in that spot you're in the realm of tribal culture rather than religion.

Anyway, ALL I was trying to say is that Jews have for generations, centuries, millenia, done this thing to their boys when they're born. It is a cultural tradition they would be very uncomfortable ditching. The immigrants practicing FGM are coming from an equally long standing cultural tradition which it will make them feel very uncomfortable to stop. That is the only way I was comparing them. The fact that one group has more adherents than another or why isn't really an important part of my argument.

Yes, I understand all this and agree. And I'm not comparing numbers; I'm noting which bases of reasoning are religious, and which are cultural. The former will always follow the latter.

 

[Montrovant]

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, yet it was done to me and all the other Irish Catholic boys I grew up with, and with no necessity of there being a priest there (or a rabbi or an imam).

So how is that a "religious rite"?

You aren't Jewish, so it wasn't a religious rite.

Apparently it is (or at least can be) a religious practice in Islam, as well.

The Questionable Ritual of Circumcision As Practiced in Islam

Actually your link doesn't say that. It notes that circumcision long predates Islam by thousands of years (there goes a spoiler alert for post 83) and that it's done for health reasons, not religious ones, by a doctor -- same as I had. But nothing in there describes it as a 'religious' practice either.

Done for health reasons based on religious teachings. Here's another: BBC - Religions - Islam: Circumcision of boys

Circumcision is described as rite of Islam here: Male Circumcision in Islam

From the little I've found on the subject, there is some debate among Muslim scholars as to whether circumcision should be mandatory, merely recommended, or even performed at all. It isn't as clearly required as in Judaism.

Again, "described" doesn't mean "required". Lots of things are described in ancient religious texts, naturally so since they're the context of their time.

And I pretty clearly said that there is debate among Muslim scholars about whether circumcision should be required or not. Some believe that it is required by Islam, apparently.

Yet another source: Islamic Ruling on  Male and Female Circumcision _ Dr Mahmoud Ahmad Fora

"Scholars are not unanimous on the question of male circumcision; some , maintain that it is obligatory, while others say it is recommended."

I'm not sure why you want to argue about this particular part of the conversation.

 

[Montrovant]

The one between Abraham and God.

She won't answer.

Circumcision, then. In America, most boys are circumcised now at birth, as a hygiene thing. It has nothing to do with religion for most folks. It's not just a religious rite for Jews anymore.

Agreed, although "as a hygiene thing" is the cultural part, just as FGM has its own cultural reasoning relating to female sexuality, specifically the fear thereof.

But neither of those bases is grounded in either logic or religion. It's just how the social pressures are applied.

I thought Jews DID circumcise their kids for a religious commandment of some sort? No?

I've never been Jewish but from what I looked up there is no such requirement in the Torah. It may indeed be a tradition and a strong one, but anyone who wanted to join Judaism could point this out as an objection, and I'm not sure there would be an argument to overcome it. Which means it's left to nothing more than "because we've always done it this way". And once you're in that spot you're in the realm of tribal culture rather than religion.

Anyway, ALL I was trying to say is that Jews have for generations, centuries, millenia, done this thing to their boys when they're born. It is a cultural tradition they would be very uncomfortable ditching. The immigrants practicing FGM are coming from an equally long standing cultural tradition which it will make them feel very uncomfortable to stop. That is the only way I was comparing them. The fact that one group has more adherents than another or why isn't really an important part of my argument.

Yes, I understand all this and agree. And I'm not comparing numbers; I'm noting which bases of reasoning are religious, and which are cultural. The former will always follow the latter.

There is no explicit directive in the Torah, but that does not mean it cannot be an accepted religious command. The Talmud apparently is where to look regarding this subject.

The Covenant of Circumcision | My Jewish Learning