Fair Taxes

[Orange_Juice]

A completely fair tax system would simply have every person at the end of the year mail in $20,000 to the government. No tax rates, not graduated scale, no punishing anyone for making more or spending more, let's just have it fair.

Would you Conservatives like this?

 

[indago]

Orange_Juice wrote:
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A completely fair tax system would simply have every person at the end of the year mail in $20,000 to the government.
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And subvert the constitutional tax structure? Why would ANYONE want to do that?

 

[editec]

No tax system is fair.

Expecting one to be so is absurd.

 

[Old Rocks]

Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. It is the way that we do as a society what we cannot do as individuals. For better or worse.

 

[Gunny]

A completely fair tax system would simply have every person at the end of the year mail in $20,000 to the government. No tax rates, not graduated scale, no punishing anyone for making more or spending more, let's just have it fair.

Would you Conservatives like this?

No. That's a third of my income. I'm already getting screwed royally handing over a quarter of it.

Not to mention what about those who make $40k or less? That half or more of their income.

How about we go through the government and start axing programs and people that amount to little more than throwing money into the toilet and flushing?

How about every piece of proposed legislation sent through Congress being required to stand on its own, one-for-one? Let's get that pork under the light instead of on page 57, 4th pparagraph from the bottom.

The money's there. You lefties just need to get out of the mindset that it's okay to take it from OUR pockets. Hold the government accountable for the money they're already robbing us for instead.

 

[Zoom-boing]

No. That's a third of my income. I'm already getting screwed royally handing over a quarter of it.

Not to mention what about those who make $40k or less? That half or more of their income.

How about we go through the government and start axing programs and people that amount to little more than throwing money into the toilet and flushing?

How about every piece of proposed legislation sent through Congress being required to stand on its own, one-for-one? Let's get that pork under the light instead of on page 57, 4th pparagraph from the bottom.

The money's there. You lefties just need to get out of the mindset that it's okay to take it from OUR pockets. Hold the government accountable for the money they're already robbing us for instead.

Occam's razor and common sense. It' really not that hard.

 

[Orange_Juice]

What exactly you guys want to cut that will save so much money? Infrastructure? Health care? I know not the military, that should get more money I bet.

 

[PeterS]

A completely fair tax system would simply have every person at the end of the year mail in $20,000 to the government. No tax rates, not graduated scale, no punishing anyone for making more or spending more, let's just have it fair.

Would you Conservatives like this?

How about a revenue neutral flat tax. This is a PAYGO system so if Cons want a tax cut then they have to actually cut government first and if Dems want health care then it comes out of their pockets in higher taxes. Both would now have the means to accomplish what they want. Sounds fair too me...

 

[Zoom-boing]

Instead of a flat cost (like the $20,000 you mentioned) why not a flat rate (like x% of income)? Why wouldn't this work?

Mike Huckabee's Fair Tax Plan; would this work?

"Huckabee's 'Fair Tax' Plan

Would eliminate all federal income and payroll taxes, including personal, corporate, gift, estate, capital gains, Social Security and Medicare, and shut down the Internal Revenue Service.
Would replace the income tax with a national sales tax of 30 cents on the dollar.
Would provide a prepaid monthly rebate ("prebate") for taxes paid on purchases up to the poverty line, meaning people below it would be effectively exempt from the tax.
Would only apply to new goods.
Is intended to keep the federal government's revenue the same.
Promises to make American products more competitive because prices would not be increased to cover taxes and compliance costs.
Promises to encourage growth by promoting investment and capital formation."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17209388

 

[Gunny]

What exactly you guys want to cut that will save so much money? Infrastructure? Health care? I know not the military, that should get more money I bet.

You could start with Congressional pay and perks. Nobody else gets to park for free in DC. Nobody else gets their cleaning done free. Nobody else gets trips home at taxpayer's expense.

And we damned sure don't get paid to work only half the year and accomplish nothing but investigation steroids in friggin baseball. How about that budget anyone over the age of 10 knows is due every October and is NEVER on time?

You could trim at least a third of jobs in the bureaucracy down just by dumping the ones that duplicate another.

I got news for you as far as the military is concerned ... they operate on a shoestring as it is. What are you going to cut from them?

We've already had a major manpower drawdown and base realignment and closings. There's just not a lot for you to play with.

The government shouldn't have a dime invested in healthcare beyond the services provided for its employees. Solves that problem.

 

[xsited1]

A completely fair tax system would simply have every person at the end of the year mail in $20,000 to the government. No tax rates, not graduated scale, no punishing anyone for making more or spending more, let's just have it fair.

Would you Conservatives like this?

What's fair about that? Just impose a consumption tax. No loopholes, no hidden taxes, easy to understand. Don't tax food and tax everything else the same (no sin taxes). If the tax rate is 10% and I buy $1000 worth of goods, I pay $100 in taxes. If I'm rich (whatever that means) and I buy $1,000,000 worth of goods, I pay $100,000 in taxes. Simple.

 

[Againsheila]

A completely fair tax system would simply have every person at the end of the year mail in $20,000 to the government. No tax rates, not graduated scale, no punishing anyone for making more or spending more, let's just have it fair.

Would you Conservatives like this?

Umm, how is that fair? I know a lot of people that don't even make $20,000 a year.

 

[Againsheila]

Instead of a flat cost (like the $20,000 you mentioned) why not a flat rate (like x% of income)? Why wouldn't this work?

]

Because 25% of $10,000 means the difference between eating and not eating and 25% of $10,000,000 means not getting that yacht.

 

[Orange_Juice]

Umm, how is that fair? I know a lot of people that don't even make $20,000 a year.

Debters prison for them!


*Just kidding

 

[Orange_Juice]

Instead of a flat cost (like the $20,000 you mentioned) why not a flat rate (like x% of income)? Why wouldn't this work?

Mike Huckabee's Fair Tax Plan; would this work?

"Huckabee's 'Fair Tax' Plan

Would eliminate all federal income and payroll taxes, including personal, corporate, gift, estate, capital gains, Social Security and Medicare, and shut down the Internal Revenue Service.
Would replace the income tax with a national sales tax of 30 cents on the dollar.
Would provide a prepaid monthly rebate ("prebate") for taxes paid on purchases up to the poverty line, meaning people below it would be effectively exempt from the tax.
Would only apply to new goods.
Is intended to keep the federal government's revenue the same.
Promises to make American products more competitive because prices would not be increased to cover taxes and compliance costs.
Promises to encourage growth by promoting investment and capital formation."

Huckabee Whips Up Debate with 'Fair Tax' Plan : NPR

Because it would punish people for spending their money. It's their money and you are going to reach into their pocket and take more of it simply because they want to use it? How is that fair? They worked for that money and should be able to use it anyweay they want. A national sales tax is socialistic

 

[xsited1]

Because it would punish people for spending their money. It's their money and you are going to reach into their pocket and take more of it simply because they want to use it? How is that fair? They worked for that money and should be able to use it anyweay they want. A national sales tax is socialistic

You're obviously not an Obama or McCain supporter.

 

[DiveCon]

Instead of a flat cost (like the $20,000 you mentioned) why not a flat rate (like x% of income)? Why wouldn't this work?

Mike Huckabee's Fair Tax Plan; would this work?

"Huckabee's 'Fair Tax' Plan

Would eliminate all federal income and payroll taxes, including personal, corporate, gift, estate, capital gains, Social Security and Medicare, and shut down the Internal Revenue Service.
Would replace the income tax with a national sales tax of 30 cents on the dollar.
Would provide a prepaid monthly rebate ("prebate") for taxes paid on purchases up to the poverty line, meaning people below it would be effectively exempt from the tax.
Would only apply to new goods.
Is intended to keep the federal government's revenue the same.
Promises to make American products more competitive because prices would not be increased to cover taxes and compliance costs.
Promises to encourage growth by promoting investment and capital formation."

Huckabee Whips Up Debate with 'Fair Tax' Plan : NPR

i could support it, as long as it exempts food and medical

 

[Turboswede]

Zoom, this won’t work and has been tried in the past (the UK tried this in the 70’s) the problem is that, once you reach about 12% on a consumption tax, then consumption just goes underground. I went through the article and here are the problems with the consumption tax proposed

Would eliminate all federal income and payroll taxes, including personal, corporate, gift, estate, capital gains, Social Security and Medicare, and shut down the Internal Revenue Service.

Even if you eliminate all of those other forms of tax, you would need the IRS (or some service) to draft regulations and determine valuations for everything. It’s like here in WA state, we have a 8.5% sales tax (about) so when you sell your used car you need to fill out a bill of sale so that the buyer can pay sales tax. How often do you think those actually reflect the price paid for the car, what would happen if that sales tax went to 31.5% (23% fed & 8.5% state)?

At 8.5% it’s not worth the risk for new car dealers to “fudge the numbers” but at 40% how many would start giving some “great deals’ to car buyers? What if you are selling your $10,000 car and want to be honest but the buyer offers you an extra $500 to put $7,500 on the sales price line instead of $10,000, even if you don’t go for it a lot of folks will. Unless of course the IRS determines a “market value” to which the tax is always applied automatically. Now you may negotiate a good deal on that $10,000 car and pay $9,000, but the feds may attribute a value of $12,000 to that car so that is the value that you would be taxed on.

The Service would need to do that for every consumer item on the market and then enforce the value regulations, so you will have audits where the Auditor is checking that the Chevy Impala you bought in 2005 is not actually an SS with a leather interior.

That doesn’t sound like a simple system to me and I work with Federal Taxes Every day.

Would replace the income tax with a national sales tax of 30 cents on the dollar.

Unless you are planning on subjecting institutions that are currently exempt (school, churches, charities, etc.) from the tax, it would need to be closer to 35% at the Federal level (that would make it 43.5% in my state).

Would provide a prepaid monthly rebate ("prebate") for taxes paid on purchases up to the poverty line, meaning people below it would be effectively exempt from the tax.

Ok, so families earning less than 14K per year are (basically) exempt.

Would only apply to new goods.

So, who on earth would ever buy a new car again? Would it apply to homes, what about new homes, what about fixtures in new homes, are they passed on the home buyer at the time of sale or does the builder absorb those costs until the time of sale?
[/QUOTE]

They tried this in the UK and one of the first things that happened is employers began providing compensation in the form of property. Example, instead of paying Mr. Jones $10,000 in salary the company will lease a car at Mr. Jones choice (no sale as title remains with finance company, taxable transaction?) then provide the car for Mr. Jones use. At the end of the lease term we will purchase the vehicle from the finance company (used now with 30,000 miles) and give it to Mr. Jones. Say the leasing company is a subsidiary of the auto manufacture, where is this transaction taxed? What is the point of sale?

With a 40% sales tax rate (state + Fed) it wouldn’t just be cars, the majority of compensation (and all executive compensation) would be made in the form of property. So Phil making $80,000 per year at Boeing and taxed at about (6.4% + 20%) 26% generating $20,800 in federal tax revenue.

Under the new 30% federal sales tax Phil’s first $14,000 in income is exempt (poverty line) Boeing pays him $20,000 in salary

The Company provides him with a long term transferable lease on a home (no sale, not taxable)

The company provides a leased company car (no sale, not taxable),

The company develops an employee incentive plan where you can have 30,000 “points’ to purchase items through a corporate catalog, all of the items would be purchased by Boeing outside the U.S. taxing jurisdiction and are considered “used’ when provided to employees, so not taxable.

In the UK what they found when sales tax rates went above 20% was that the black market for goods rises dramatically and employers find ingenious ways around compensating employees with cash.

So, then revenue drops and the rates need to go up, which only increases black market activity.

This is an absolutely horrible and costly idea as we do not have the resources as a nation to enforce it.

 

[Gunny]

Because 25% of $10,000 means the difference between eating and not eating and 25% of $10,000,000 means not getting that yacht.

Doesn't matter. If I earn the money to buy a yacht by busting my ass, then I want a yacht, not to pay some lamewad's High-speed internet bill.

Taxing at the the same percentage across the board is FAIR. Our current system punishes the successful.

 

[Toro]

A completely fair tax system would simply have every person at the end of the year mail in $20,000 to the government. No tax rates, not graduated scale, no punishing anyone for making more or spending more, let's just have it fair.

Would you Conservatives like this?

What if you only made $19,000? What if you are retired or cannot work?