Toro
Diamond Member
Sweden's corporate tax rate is about 20%.
Fair taxation.
- Thread starter CultureCitizen
- Start date
Sweden's corporate tax rate is about 20%.
Dad2three
Gold Member
And the US's EFFECTIVE tax rates, the one that really matters is about 12%, only Mexico and Chile are lower in the developed world, IF you want to consider Chile/Mexico developed!
Warren Buffett: ‘It Is A Myth’ That U.S. Corporate Taxes Are High
So our corporate tax rate last year, effectively, in terms of taxes paid for the United States, was around 12 percent, which is well below those existing in most of the industrialized countries around the world. So it is a myth that American corporations are paying 35 percent or anything like it…Corporate taxes are not strangling American competitiveness.
Buffett is absolutely right to note that while corporate profits are at a record high, corporate taxes are at a nearly half-century low. When looking at the rate that corporations actually pay (as opposed to the statutory rate that only exists on paper), the U.S. has the second-lowest corporate tax rate in the developed world, and raises far less than other nations in corporate tax revenue.
Dad2three
Gold Member
Actually Sweden is 22% WITH a VAT
The value added tax rate in Sweden is 25%, with exceptions for food and services like hotel room rental fees (12%), and for sales of publications, admission tickets to cultural events and travel within Sweden (6%)
Taxation in Sweden - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Toro
Diamond Member
A VAT isn't a tax on corporate profits.
CultureCitizen
Silver Member
- Jun 1, 2013
- 1,932
- 140
- 95
- Thread starter
- #225
I think low wages is a trap. I could point out that the south had cheap labour ( slavery ) , while the north didn't ,this gave the north an incentive to industrialize ( it was not the only factor, but it played an important part ).
I posted this article on another thread :
Where the jobs are The new blue collar
The article seems to support the recent proposal of Obama offering free community college for students.
I think the old fashioned manufacturing jobs are gone for good, no amount of tax cut will bring them back . What may come back are a set of jobs which require more technical skills , hence having free community college is a sound option to fill this posts.
Regarding the tax cut, I was thinking the zero rate should apply only to the manufacturing companies.
The rest should get a flat rate of 10%. This should create at least a slight incentive to go into manufacturing.
(I am thinking you might see this as a complication, but I can't think of other way to push the increase towards the manufacturing area. I will be glad to hear what would be your proposal ).
CultureCitizen
Silver Member
- Jun 1, 2013
- 1,932
- 140
- 95
- Thread starter
- #226
So?
Those contries have achieved something totally different: they have built a peacefull, educated healthy society which has one of the highest human develpment indexes in the world.
They have free health care and a notable free education system which combines public and private education and promotes competition at the same time .
Sweden - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Sweden - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Take a look at these videos to have a slight idea of how is life in those contries.
Last edited:
Boss
Take a Memo:
There are always an abundance of job openings in the highly-skilled areas you mentioned, that is why people earn so much in those roles. These jobs are not adequate to address high unemployment across the nation because most people simply don't qualify. Where we are severely hurting is in manufacturing jobs. Those are never coming back unless there is an incentive to bring them back. As long as it remains cheaper to manufacture elsewhere, that's what most capitalists will do.
Now the left seems to believe the solution is to punish the capitalist for manufacturing abroad by making it more expensive to ship their products back to the US, through tariffs and fees or whatever means the government can manipulate to achieve this objective. The problem is, the capitalist is too smart to be manipulated. They simply find another customer for the intended US production and life (profits) continue on. Eventually, shortage of supply drives prices up and it becomes profitable once again, in spite of the tariffs and fees. This plan will never work to bring back lost manufacturing jobs, it simply drives prices higher for the consumer.
Fixing the problem is really not that hard if we simply apply common sense principles and standards we have already demonstrated will work. For instance, we need to standardize labor costs in the US. Rather than have organized labor constantly pushing for more and more unrealistic wages, we need to have a set base standard which everyone uses with an adjustable parameter for individual production. With computer technology we should be able to obtain information on production output for each individual laborer. So we establish a base rate, then a scaled increase/decrease based on actual individual production. I could write for hours about this, but the bottom line is, we have to change how we're approaching this problem to solve it.
As for capital available, yes... corporations are swimming in cheap money... that's not the problem. There is no demand because we are economically stagnant at the moment and nothing is going to change that until we take some action to affect a change. We can borrow another trillion from China and pump that into the economy to keep it churning along for another year... we haven't fixed the problem. Zero corporate tax combined with a tax moratorium on wealth held abroad would be the sort of thing that would change the dynamics. It's not that capitalists need the money, it's that they have the money available tax free if they want the money... and under that circumstance, many of them would.
It is an opportunity. Some would take it, others would pass, but it would certainly create new jobs and boost economic prosperity. As I said before, it represents a potential $20 trillion private-sector economic stimulus plan that wouldn't cost us a dime.
Our problem is the brainwashed Marxist masses who simply can't see the forest for the trees. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this month's interview in Rolling Stone with Bob Dylan. He talked about politics as bit... Bob said, the people are sitting around with no jobs and nothing to do, hopeless and in despair, and we keep hearing this anger and rage directed at the billionaires, but the billionaires create the jobs and prosperity. How can anyone reject Dylan's philosophy?
"Zero corporate tax combined with a tax moratorium on wealth held abroad would be the sort of thing that would change the dynamics"
YOUR PREMISE IS IF WE DON'T TAX THEM, THEY'LL SPEND MONEY? LOL
The 'job creators' send their money to money managers, who promptly offshore it to the cheapest labor to make the largest return!
No, my premise is; if you don't tax them, they'll have more money available. They may or may not spend it. Despite what you'e been brainwashed to believe, no group of people always does the same predictable thing... not even screwball liberals. Some voted for Hillary and questioned Obama's birth certificate (before they blamed this on the right) and some voted for Obama.
The primary reason for offshoring US wealth is to avoid US taxation. Stands to logical reason if we remove that taxation there will be less offshoring of wealth.
Mainly because Dubya didn't eliminate the corporate tax and his policies were not conservative. You have no valid data to show that all corporations did any one particular thing. Some cut jobs and R&D, some expanded and created jobs. But since you are a myopic socialist moron, you focus only on the bad and ignore any good.
Again, Dylan is right and he is totally rejecting left-wing socialist nitwits like you. You're still stuck on the notion of the government creating jobs by building roads and bridges.
Wow, Bob's on a ******* roll! Now he's rejected your godless beliefs! Look out Bob, they don't like it when you talk about God!
What do you mean "if we went back to a higher tax rate?" We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. What's their incentive to put money in a corporation so it can generate more tax revenue? You want to see them use their wealth to build up the corporation and create more jobs? Eliminate corporate taxation!
Boss
Take a Memo:
Honesty dictates you recognize the bottom 90% of US have been stagnated for 30+ years, about the time of Reaganomics when the finitialization,of US, and both public AND private debt has skyrocketed , the ONLY income gains the past 30+ years has been at the top. Period
Okay, let me explain the flaw in your chart and meme... The Top 1% today is a completely different set of people than the top 1% of 30 years ago. You see, real people don't live in a pie chart or graph, they are dynamic individuals. So some of the people who were in the 0-20% group 30 years ago are now in the Top 1% group and some who were in the Top 1% group are now in the 0-20% group. People move from one group to another throughout their whole life, they don't remain in the same group.
Now, as it turns out, individuals who are able to make it into that Top 1% just so happen to be very good at making money. Better than 99% of us, as a matter of fact. It stands to reason they are going to increase their earnings at a greater rate than those who lack their money-making acumen. Look at your graph... do you see any point in time where the Top 1% were declining while everyone else was rising? This is evidence that what I am telling you is true.
Your graphs and charts are misleading you because you're apparently too stupid to understand there will forever and always be a Top 1%, no matter what you do.
Toro
Diamond Member
So the Swedes understand the benefits of a lower corporate tax rate, even though they tax income through the wazoo.
They also tax consumption at a much higher rate than we do. They tax their lower income groups harder than we do. (And higher income groups too.) But they keep corporate tax rates competitive.
We should too. But we should also streamline our tax system and eliminate most of the loopholes that lower the effective tax rate.
Boss
Take a Memo:
I don't often quote myself, but I thought of a point I wanted to add to this...
The more leftists attempt to 'punish the rich' and make it more difficult for the Top 1% to keep their wealth, the more these pie charts and graphs are going to show you a Top 1% which is growing exponentially faster than everyone else. I'll explain why....
The more difficult it becomes to be in the Top 1% the more people you find who are extremely good at keeping, maintaining and growing wealth. So now their statistics are improved by elimination of the many in the Top 1% who fell victim to leftist policies and are now in a lower bracket. This creates the false impression the leftist show you in the graphs about the Top 1%. What they are really showing you is the result of their policies weeding out the lesser wealth-producing players and giving us a Top 1% of superstars.
Again... People do not live in pie charts. They are all individuals who do different things, make money in different ways, lose money in different ways, make good and bad decisions with money along the way, and almost NEVER remain in the same income bracket for their entire life. The Evil Top 1% is everchanging!
Dad2three
Gold Member
Do Corps pay it? Is it a cost? YOU are NEVER honest. Shocking
Mar 29, 2012
Over the course of a year, that measure includes corporate profit that is comparable to the U.S. corporate tax base. Consequently, the imposition of the VAT represents an additional nominal tax imposed at the VAT rate on corporate profits. When one accounts for that additional nominal tax on corporate profits, the correct comparative picture comes into focus: The United States no longer is a high-tax-rate jurisdiction.
Tax Analysts -- U.S. Taxes Corporate Income at Comparatively Low Rate
Boss
Take a Memo:
I agree we should do something about our tax system, but I favor repealing the income tax amendment and replacing it with a federal sales tax. Income qualified persons can get an ATM card with an offset for their tax expenses covering all their basic needs. No more IRS, no more H&R Block. Also... no more loopholes.
But if we are not going to do this, we need to be careful about this new left-wing buzzword "loopholes" because it has ramifications. Every "loophole" is really a part of our tax law, which according to the Constitution, must be passed by 2/3 Congress. I should think they must have deliberated on the reasons for and against said "loophole" at that time... don't you imagine? So now, all of a sudden this is deemed something bad? There are reasons we adopted these things into law, and they are there because we wanted to address some other problem. We should at least have a look at the problem they were intended to address and see if they worked or if they need to be tweaked. I can't answer that because "loopholes" are ambiguous... which one are you talking about?
Dad2three
Gold Member
There are always an abundance of job openings in the highly-skilled areas you mentioned, that is why people earn so much in those roles. These jobs are not adequate to address high unemployment across the nation because most people simply don't qualify. Where we are severely hurting is in manufacturing jobs. Those are never coming back unless there is an incentive to bring them back. As long as it remains cheaper to manufacture elsewhere, that's what most capitalists will do.
Now the left seems to believe the solution is to punish the capitalist for manufacturing abroad by making it more expensive to ship their products back to the US, through tariffs and fees or whatever means the government can manipulate to achieve this objective. The problem is, the capitalist is too smart to be manipulated. They simply find another customer for the intended US production and life (profits) continue on. Eventually, shortage of supply drives prices up and it becomes profitable once again, in spite of the tariffs and fees. This plan will never work to bring back lost manufacturing jobs, it simply drives prices higher for the consumer.
Fixing the problem is really not that hard if we simply apply common sense principles and standards we have already demonstrated will work. For instance, we need to standardize labor costs in the US. Rather than have organized labor constantly pushing for more and more unrealistic wages, we need to have a set base standard which everyone uses with an adjustable parameter for individual production. With computer technology we should be able to obtain information on production output for each individual laborer. So we establish a base rate, then a scaled increase/decrease based on actual individual production. I could write for hours about this, but the bottom line is, we have to change how we're approaching this problem to solve it.
As for capital available, yes... corporations are swimming in cheap money... that's not the problem. There is no demand because we are economically stagnant at the moment and nothing is going to change that until we take some action to affect a change. We can borrow another trillion from China and pump that into the economy to keep it churning along for another year... we haven't fixed the problem. Zero corporate tax combined with a tax moratorium on wealth held abroad would be the sort of thing that would change the dynamics. It's not that capitalists need the money, it's that they have the money available tax free if they want the money... and under that circumstance, many of them would.
It is an opportunity. Some would take it, others would pass, but it would certainly create new jobs and boost economic prosperity. As I said before, it represents a potential $20 trillion private-sector economic stimulus plan that wouldn't cost us a dime.
Our problem is the brainwashed Marxist masses who simply can't see the forest for the trees. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this month's interview in Rolling Stone with Bob Dylan. He talked about politics as bit... Bob said, the people are sitting around with no jobs and nothing to do, hopeless and in despair, and we keep hearing this anger and rage directed at the billionaires, but the billionaires create the jobs and prosperity. How can anyone reject Dylan's philosophy?
"Zero corporate tax combined with a tax moratorium on wealth held abroad would be the sort of thing that would change the dynamics"
YOUR PREMISE IS IF WE DON'T TAX THEM, THEY'LL SPEND MONEY? LOL
The 'job creators' send their money to money managers, who promptly offshore it to the cheapest labor to make the largest return!
No, my premise is; if you don't tax them, they'll have more money available. They may or may not spend it. Despite what you'e been brainwashed to believe, no group of people always does the same predictable thing... not even screwball liberals. Some voted for Hillary and questioned Obama's birth certificate (before they blamed this on the right) and some voted for Obama.
The primary reason for offshoring US wealth is to avoid US taxation. Stands to logical reason if we remove that taxation there will be less offshoring of wealth.
Mainly because Dubya didn't eliminate the corporate tax and his policies were not conservative. You have no valid data to show that all corporations did any one particular thing. Some cut jobs and R&D, some expanded and created jobs. But since you are a myopic socialist moron, you focus only on the bad and ignore any good.
Again, Dylan is right and he is totally rejecting left-wing socialist nitwits like you. You're still stuck on the notion of the government creating jobs by building roads and bridges.
Wow, Bob's on a ******* roll! Now he's rejected your godless beliefs! Look out Bob, they don't like it when you talk about God!
What do you mean "if we went back to a higher tax rate?" We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. What's their incentive to put money in a corporation so it can generate more tax revenue? You want to see them use their wealth to build up the corporation and create more jobs? Eliminate corporate taxation!
lol
"Mainly because Dubya didn't eliminate the corporate tax"
YEAH, I GUESS 5% WASN'T LOW ENOUGH, LOL
According to a study by the Internal Revenue Service, 842 of the 9,700 businesses with foreign subsidiaries transferred a total of $362 billion from their foreign subsidiaries to their U.S. parent companies
The evidence clearly shows that these repatriated earnings did not increase domestic investment, job creation, or research and development (R&D). As the authors of the leading paper on the subject concluded in 2010, “repatriations did not lead to an increase in domestic investment, domestic employment, or R&D.”The authors continued:
Instead, estimates indicate that a $1 increase in repatriations was associated with a $0.60–$0.92 increase in payouts to shareholders—despite regulations stating that such expenditures were not a permitted use of repatriations qualifying for the tax holiday. The results indicate the U.S. multinationals were not financially constrained and were reasonably well-governed. The fungibility of money appears to have undermined the effectiveness of the regulations.
LOL
RIGHT WING HERITAGE
Would Another Repatriation Tax Holiday Create Jobs
Oct 3, 2011
Giving U.S. companies a tax break for bringing home profits held overseas likely won’t create more jobs or spur domestic investment, an influential conservative think tank will argue in a report to be released Tuesday.
In a break from many Republican lawmakers and a host of major U.S. companies including Google Inc., Apple Inc., Pfizer Inc. and Microsoft Corp., the Heritage Foundation said in a new study that a repatriation tax holiday would not motivate companies to hire new workers.
Heritage Repatriation Tax Holiday Wouldn 8217 t Create Jobs - Real Time Economics - WSJ
The Institute for Policy Studies looked at fifty-eight corporations that accounted for 70 percent of overseas profits repatriated under the last tax repatriation holiday, in 2004 and 2005. It found that the companies cut 600,000 jobs.
Corporate Tax Holidays Might Not Create Jobs
"What do you mean "if we went back to a higher tax rate?" We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world."
ANOTHER RIGHT WING KLOWN ARGUING THE USUAL RIGHT WING MYTHS, FORGETTING THE AVG EFFECTIVE RATE IS ABOUT 1/3 OF THE 'RATE' LOL,
12% IS WHAT CORPS PAY, ONLY MEXICO AND CHILE IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD PAY LOWER RATES, LOL
The corporate tax myth
U.S. businesses might face the highest corporate tax rate in the world, but what they pay isn't nearly as bad in comparison to other countries.
In fact, the United States collects less corporate tax relative to the overall economy than almost any other country in the world.
And that's a more objective measure of tax burden. Different accounting rules around the world means what's counted as income in one country isn't counted in another -- that makes comparisons of tax rates misleading.
The corporate tax myth - Feb. 23 2012
Warren Buffett: ‘It Is A Myth’ That U.S. Corporate Taxes Are High
CARRY ON LIAR!
Dad2three
Gold Member
Honesty dictates you recognize the bottom 90% of US have been stagnated for 30+ years, about the time of Reaganomics when the finitialization,of US, and both public AND private debt has skyrocketed , the ONLY income gains the past 30+ years has been at the top. Period
Okay, let me explain the flaw in your chart and meme... The Top 1% today is a completely different set of people than the top 1% of 30 years ago. You see, real people don't live in a pie chart or graph, they are dynamic individuals. So some of the people who were in the 0-20% group 30 years ago are now in the Top 1% group and some who were in the Top 1% group are now in the 0-20% group. People move from one group to another throughout their whole life, they don't remain in the same group.
Now, as it turns out, individuals who are able to make it into that Top 1% just so happen to be very good at making money. Better than 99% of us, as a matter of fact. It stands to reason they are going to increase their earnings at a greater rate than those who lack their money-making acumen. Look at your graph... do you see any point in time where the Top 1% were declining while everyone else was rising? This is evidence that what I am telling you is true.
Your graphs and charts are misleading you because you're apparently too stupid to understand there will forever and always be a Top 1%, no matter what you do.
Weird from 1945-1980 the top 1% received 6%-9% of ALL US income. Thanks to Reaganomics/Dubyanomics they went to 23% by 2007? Were those guys, who weren't the same from 1945-1980 less educated? Lazy? PERHAPS TAX POLICY MATTERS? LOL
You fuking dishonest wing nutter
Dad2three
Gold Member
You'll keep being dishonest. Shocking
The corporate tax myth
n fact, the United States collects less corporate tax relative to the overall economy than almost any other country in the world.
And that's a more objective measure of tax burden. Different accounting rules around the world means what's counted as income in one country isn't counted in another -- that makes comparisons of tax rates misleading.
U.S. corporate tax collections totaled only 1.7% of GDP in 2009, the most recent year for which complete data is available, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
On that measure, the United States had the third lowest corporate tax burden, behind France and Germany. The worldwide average was 2.8%.
In other countries, many small businesses pay both corporate and personal income tax. So a business owner in a country with a lower corporate tax rate could end up paying more than his U.S. counterpart.
The corporate tax myth - Feb. 23 2012
Warren Buffett: ‘It Is A Myth’ That U.S. Corporate Taxes Are High
The interesting thing about the corporate rate is that corporate profits, as a percentage of GDP last year were the highest or just about the highest in the last 50 years. They were ten and a fraction percent of GDP. That’s higher than we’ve seen in 50 years. The corporate taxes as a percentage of GDP were 1.2 percent, $180 billion. That’s just about the lowest we’ve seen. So our corporate tax rate last year, effectively, in terms of taxes paid for the United States, was around 12 percent, which is well below those existing in most of the industrialized countries around the world. So it is a myth that American corporations are paying 35 percent or anything like it…Corporate taxes are not strangling American competitiveness.
All other developed nations raise a significant part of their tax revenue through VATs, but it is not included in the comparisons of corporate tax collections.
CRS: Effective Tax Rate In The U.S. "About The Same" As The Rest Of The Developed World.
fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41743.pdf
GAO: Effective Tax Rates For Large, Profitable Corporations Fall Between 13 Percent And 23 Percent
www.gao.gov/assets/660/654957.pdf
Boss
Take a Memo:
And more unadulterated propaganda! How predictable! 
Dad2three
Gold Member
And more unadulterated propaganda! How predictable!
So other than your opinions, unlike my fact based historical linked posits, you have nothing. Got it
AND you can't give me even one policy conservatives have EVER been on the correct side of history, lol
CultureCitizen
Silver Member
- Jun 1, 2013
- 1,932
- 140
- 95
- Thread starter
- #238
That's fine by me. I would have no problem with a low corporate tax , if the income tax is progressive.
Boss
Take a Memo:
And more unadulterated propaganda! How predictable!
So other than your opinions, unlike my fact based historical linked posits, you have nothing. Got it
AND you can't give me even one policy conservatives have EVER been on the correct side of history, lol
They've been on the correct side of all policies. Liberals are consistently on the wrong side.
Obamacare is the most recent example. Conservatives told you it would be a total clusterfuck and wouldn't accomplish what you claimed, and it has turned out exactly as they predicted.
Pulling our troops out of Iraq and running away from the War on Terror... Conservatives told you it would be a grave mistake we'd live to regret. Turning out that way, as predicted. The same for the glorious Arab Spring you were all dancing in the streets about.
Conservatives have tried to tell your stubborn asses for 9 years now, that your stupid 'war on the rich' is not only going to fail to harm the rich but also fail to bring our economy back... low and behold, the number of billionaires has doubled and our economy still flounders.
Conservatives tried to tell you Global Warming was a load of socialist horse crap, and again... you've had to change the name to Climate Change just to keep from being laughed out of your own seminars.
We tried to tell you there weren't any shovel ready jobs! We tried to tell you bailing out failing corporations was a bad idea! We tried to tell you that it was a bad idea to dole out money to unproven and untried "green energy" companies to produce a product with no demand.
You want to go further back? We told you it was a mistake to let LBJ establish a welfare state which has kept black people in dependent poverty for the past 60 years. Further back? We told you it was a mistake to abandon Federalism when liberals founded the Republican party.
CultureCitizen
Silver Member
- Jun 1, 2013
- 1,932
- 140
- 95
- Thread starter
- #240
Since the thread has started diverging from its original purpose I'll try to make a summary that serves as a base for further discussion.
Tax revenue has shifted from corporate to personal income in the last 40 years.
During that same period of time corporations have increased their profit and the income gap between the rich and the poor within the US has increased dramatically.
Tax revenue as a percent of GDP in the US is well below the average of the OECD and the EU.
The curent taxation system is inefficient , because it has provoked that many corporations move outside the US and deters investment because it is above the world average and the OECD average.
Taxes should be changed to both encourage investment and allow the government to have more revenue to provide the infrastructures and services that allow leveling the field for a market economy.
At the same time there is an urgent need for manufacturing jobs, most of which have been offsored in the past 20 years. A tax reform should include measures to attract manufacturing to the US.
Some of the alternatives include :
A) Reduce the corporate tax to zero.
B) Reduce the corporate tax to zero for the manufacturing industry and to a competitive level ( <= 10% for the rest of the companies)
C) Increase the VAT
D) Increase the ceiling for the personal income tax.
Sources :
Corporate tax rates table KPMG GLOBAL
Tax revenue has shifted from corporate to personal income in the last 40 years.
During that same period of time corporations have increased their profit and the income gap between the rich and the poor within the US has increased dramatically.
Tax revenue as a percent of GDP in the US is well below the average of the OECD and the EU.
The curent taxation system is inefficient , because it has provoked that many corporations move outside the US and deters investment because it is above the world average and the OECD average.
Taxes should be changed to both encourage investment and allow the government to have more revenue to provide the infrastructures and services that allow leveling the field for a market economy.
At the same time there is an urgent need for manufacturing jobs, most of which have been offsored in the past 20 years. A tax reform should include measures to attract manufacturing to the US.
Some of the alternatives include :
A) Reduce the corporate tax to zero.
B) Reduce the corporate tax to zero for the manufacturing industry and to a competitive level ( <= 10% for the rest of the companies)
C) Increase the VAT
D) Increase the ceiling for the personal income tax.
Sources :
Corporate tax rates table KPMG GLOBAL
Last edited:
Similar threads
New Topics
-
CUSMA a ‘critical condition’ for increased Japanese auto manufacturing in Canada: ambassador- Started by shockedcanadian
- Replies: 0
-
-
China To Mediate Middle East Crisis? Beijing Set To Dispatch 'Special Envoys' To Nations Amid Iran War
- Started by shockedcanadian
- Replies: 1
-
-
Chevron warns of economic collapse in California under Gavin Newsom- Started by trumptman
- Replies: 5
